BC928

Some (maybe many?) of you will blow a wad about this being "not made by mb" but fuelab makes very good pumps. They have recently been developing an "in tank" solution for all of the more modern cars that do have in tanks pumps, as well as older cars where it's more of a top-in tank hybrid.


Anyway, I thought I would see if this would shake some ideas loose on the more prolific modders here and ask a few questions:

http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories/...-power-module/


So - many wires going to the e55 pump side (passenger) - are they only fuel level and pump power?

Is there any pwm (pulse width modulation) or voltage change on the pump power on our cars?

When people have done regulators at the rail - were the rails modified or odd you start over with custom -8 or -10 rails?

Most importantly - what was the solution for getting the return fuel back into the tank, and how was the tank pressure sensor tricked?



Or- is all of this mute because with big enough oem placed pumps, larger feed lines and a looped rail, you are fine past a safe point in power on the engine?

Don't forget e85 basically doesn't detonate and much higher hp levels are safe on engine internals simple because You are not trying to blow the engine apart with detonation.

WANTED!!

Otherwise, can I sell you a bridge in Brooklyn?

BC928

Ah. I'd like to stay on subject for my original post - but...

Ethanol has approx (when used in the presence of petrol in small amounts - ie e85) 104-108 octane. Its true octane is closer to about 114 when its latent heat of evaporation and other cooling properties are realized.

When you "Build" an engine, unless you are specifically designing pieces lighter for higher rpm usage or similar usage - you are using "billet" this and "Forged" that. Again, other than higher forces due to RPM - the "Built" process is to protect against the destructive effects of detonation - which petrol does very very well.

WHEN you build an engine for ethanol, or use ethanol (ETOH) in a stock engine, you can go much closer to the physical limitations of the engine package simply because you are not, and probably will not be detonating nearly as much. Sure - an idiot can make anything detonate.

Now - ethanol does react badly to hotspots. So valve pockets must be smoothed, and the spark plug must be brought in a bit so its not a hot point in the chamber.


Its not anecdotal - its fact. The detonation level for an e85 engine is MUCH higher. I have White papers and other various documentation.


So... I have been running e85 and studying it properties and researching its usage in IC engines for over 10 years. What did you disagree with?

WANTED!!

That you can't have detonation resulting in catastrophic failure running e85. Yes, you can run aggressive timing with this fuel and get away with it, but only to a point before things go "KABOOM" regardless of the internals.

WANTED!!

But as to the rest of your question, Chawkins just recently went from a returnless to a return style fuel system on his for his recent build. He might chime in on what he did.

BC928

The big boom happens in any IC engine when one of two things (sometimes both) happen:

1) The fuel and air ignite before the spark on a hotspot within the chamber - pre-ignition - e85 doesn't like hotspots like I said. Smooth chamber surfaces

2) Detonation - which is defined as AFTER the intended explosion, another one happens and causes much duress.

"Aggressive timing" was not my point. My point was that people regularily can make xxxxhp in a much SAFER manner simply because there is a nearly complete reduction in normal-running detonation and pre-ignition.

Does **** blow up? Of course.


Strange conversation.



Does anyone know much about the e55 fuel system?

BC928

Thank you. I emailed him. No response yet.

I see some bits and pieces on the website, but nothing like that.

WANTED!!

https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...rn-bip-12.html

Start there to get a visual of some of what he had to do on his twin turbo build.

WANTED!!

page 12 if it doesn't start you there.

KMS11

I'd PM Redbulljunky myself

WANTED!!

I completely forgot about him. Good call.

chawkins2001

if u have not run e85 in your e55, don't. its comes with a lot of headaches man. these cars were not made for it period. rather have a pump gas tune and race gas tune on c16.

I ran e85 for 2 yrs BTW.

BC928

I would like to hear. I am sure many here would as well.

A plastic tank. Got it. COuld be hit or miss, but I believe most tanks now are crosslinked Poly. Which is alcohol resistant.

Fuel pump basket - and Seal - probably a bit iffy unless the green viton seal is used at the tank mouth. Wires and sheathing - I don't know and haven't seen it. Pumps will be a problem unless they use viton or flouro-based seals - hence my question about Fuellab. You sell the e85 compliant 320 units on the site from Aeromotive I believe. Check yes on that.

Sender side. Fuel filter probably not super compliant - but with these changes are are talking really about changing the infrastructure delivering the fuel.

Both baskets look like nylon. They will survive.

Hard line to engine is fine. Replace the braided line to the fuel rail (probably changed anyway with hard line side increase)

Fuel rail is SS. Best material anyway.


So unless you are talking about fuel dilution and/or intake seal issues at the manifold area, I am unsure what the headaches could be.

Can you list them here? Flouro or Viton based rubbers for seals, as well as teflon fuel lines, and no bare aluminum (though its not THAT bad) and you should be golden.

95ONE

I've changed 3 cars over to E-85. Oldest was a Porsche 944 turbo and the latest is a Subaru.

No headaches, no problems. Even with a German car made in 1986.

Serious question without sarcasm;

What headaches did you encounter?

Karlson

Where do you get e-85 would be my first headache problem

BC928

Well, I had to pull the trigger in both sides of the oem solution. Ed tuning had great prices and parts.com continues to disappoint on sheer irritation of those "shipping charges"

Anyway. Have the seals, the rings, and the pump and sender assembly coming.

I'll keep both used parts so maybe one day a real good replacement assembly can be made.

So 1k in parts later, I'll still be stock. Hopefully it won't leak.

BC928

This is done. I'll experiment on the parts I took out to see what options are there.

BI-Performance

1) The inconsistency of the fuel here in Atlanta
2) Serious start issues when the temps dropped into the lower 40's.
3) Issue tuning these ECU's with large 1000cc injectors
4) Idle hunt with large injectors
5) Went through multiple e85 pumps, continued to die and melt the fuel basket connector

thats just to name a few.

When it did run right it made good power and tq. Give it a try, you may not have these issues and let me know how I can help with parts used etc.

95ONE

1) The inconsistency of the fuel here in Atlanta - Very consistent in Houston
2) Serious start issues when the temps dropped into the lower 40's. - I have had the exact same thing at the exact same point in all cars. - kinda rare in Houston though.
3) Issue tuning these ECU's with large 1000cc injectors - Always been easy and had quality tunes including idle, but this might be very specific to the Mercedes which I have never tuned.
4) Idle hunt with large injectors - I have only had this problem with 2Kcc injectors or higher, but also see #3.
5) Went through multiple e85 pumps, continued to die and melt the fuel basket connector - Very interesting. Much needs to be found out on this for me to be comfortable doing this very thing. I'm more concerned about how the voltage is applied to the pumps, not the fuel.

Thanks for the input.

BC928

I responded to his numbered list similarly in another e85 thread.


We NEED a sticky on E85, so all these threads can be in one place.