Signal

So I am dying to get an E55 but there is about a 18k difference between that and the E500 I want with all options being equal. I noticed that Kleeman superchargers were down to $11k or less now, so by adding one to an E500 you end up with more power (509hp) on a lighter chassis, with the option for 4 matic, and wider selection of interiors for about 6 or 7 k less.. and be even more of a sleeper.

I understand this doesnt account for wheels, brakes, and exhaust.. but I think you see where Im going with this.. cause I alot of people customize those anyways, even on their E55 so no great loss.

What do you guys think..?

Is the E55 still a better option.?

Dr Chill

AMG cars with full factory warranty and 516 lb-ft torque is far preferable to the aftermarket Kleemann E500 hands down. Especially when resale value plays a role. Suspension, brakes, interior mods are pretty expensive too if you want to compare apples and apples. You won't save any money with Kleemann or Renntech because they are very expensive too.

stephens

The other point that has come up time and again is that despite Kleemann perormance claims, they are not translated into real world results.
A Kleemann SC55 either CLK or W210 E55, should decimate a current AMG W211 E55, but recorded drag strip results prove otherwise. If a Kleeman W210 E55/CLK55 can't beat a standard W211 E55 on the strip, how close is the E500 going to be? I'm not suggesting the Kleeman product is substandard, or not good value for money, just that demonstrable performance, from what has been posted on the MBworld boards over the last couple of years, is not as good as the new AMG.

James F. Cannon

Signal,
I've said in the past I do not understand the horsepower claims by some aftermarket manufacturers. To achieve 500+ horsepower with less than 14psi boost and without reinforcing the engine block sounds very questionable. Even more questionable for a 500 engine than for a 5.5 liter.

Signal

thanks guys,

This is the kind of info I was looking for..


It seems to me , that you will be better off with the E55 from many standpoints now..

a) genuine MB quality, and warranty

b) under rated power claims by MBUSA vs over rated by Kleeman

c) AMG engineering rather then bolt on mod

d) E55 will already have brakes, exhaust, and wheels..



Now, if I can get the damn mental block out of my head about spending 82k vs 68k I will be all set....




thanks again..

Sleestack

As someone who has actual experience with Kleemann SCs, I have to disagree with some of what is being said here. I agree that with Dr. Chill that given the choice between a W211 E55 and a Kleemann SCed E500, I would choose the E55. Keep in mind that the E55 is already supercharged.

Despite J. Cannon's concerns, I had a Kleemann SCed 430 running 395 rear wheel hp without any problems. As part of the conversion of my car to a 6.3 liter supercharged engine, my block was completely taken apart. There were no signs of excessive engine wear or damage. I know quite a few people who have been running Kleemann SCs for quite some time without any engine or transmission problems. That is partially a testament to the quality of the Kleemann product, but also to the strength of the MB engine. As part of my 6.3 project, that block was reinforced and all the components were upgraded, however, that is because the block was bored and we will be running higher boost.

As for Stephens comments, I think there are a few points to be made. First, I'm not sure that the numbers found on Kleemann's website are being produced with 91 octane. Furthermore, I'm not sure that they use the same correction factor as MB for crank to rear wheel hp calculations. What I do know is that dyno numbers are pretty credible proof and dynos posted by Kleemann, Evosport, Benzmac and other Kleemann owners have shown that Kleemann SCed 5.5 liter MB engines on the W210 E55 and W208 CLK 55 are putting out well over 400 hp at the rear wheel. Given that the W211 E55 is also putting down similar numbers, it is understandable that these cars are not decimating the E55 in the 1/4 mile. All things being equal, it takes quite a huge difference in hp/torque for a car to "decimate" another in the 1/4 mile. That being said, Benzmac ran 12.5s all day in a Kleemann SCed CLK55 with stock tires and has a custom C55 using a Kleemann SC running 11s. Also keep in mind that the new E55 benefits from a better (meaning faster) transmission. I am quite confident that W211 E55 running with a Kleemann SC rather than the AMG SC would be faster than a stock W211 E55, however, I'll leave that to Kleemann to prove.

I'm not looking to start a flame war here. I do agree that I would take a W211 E55 over a Kleemann SCed E500, especially with the extra .5 liters and other upgraded features working for you. That being said, my experience with the Kleemann products has been fantastic. It will be an important part of my 6.3 liter project and should get my car running between 650 - 700 hp.

James F. Cannon

Ask yourself why is the supercharged 5.5 liter MB engine cast with more reinforcing material in the lower end? These engines are rated at 469 and 493 HP. And they are running right around 14psi boost, right? Are MB engineers less capable than these aftermarket people? I don't think so! I'm not dissing anyone or trying to sell anything. I just don't think someone should realistically think they will get 509 hp out of a 5.0 liter engine by bolting a low pressure supercharger on. If everyone can use any percentage for drivetrain loss then anyone can claim whatever they wish. And look at what happened to Autostream's E55. I'm not saying anything about his mods other than he attempted to get more power out of the engine than it was designed for, and he paid the price.

Sleestack

Uhh, Autostream's car cannot be compared to Kleemann R&D. He did some really whacked stuff to his car and didn't spend alot to make sure it was done the right way. Furthermore, despite your doubts, there are plenty of Kleemann owners who have had no problems with their engines. I had a 4.3 liter engine running close gto 400 hp at the rear wheel. By your logic, that shouldn't have been possible. Also keep in mind that MB engineers their car with a huge amount of redundancy. For example, the W208 CLK55 had a transmission that could handle up to 700 hp. Sure, supercharging that engine would put mores stress on the transmission, but well within what the transmission could handle. I'm not saying that the Kleemann SC doesn't put additional stress on the engine, however, I think your doubts about the engine being able to handle that stress is inconsistent with the experience of Kleemann and Kleemann owners. Even though you don't think a 5.0 liter engine should realistically put out 500 hp, take a look at the dynos. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however, I actually think real experiences with Kleemann products do not support your opinion.

stephens

Sleestack
I think you have misunderstood my point. I am not suggesting any comparisons with dyno numbers, because they are so difficult to compare. One thing that is not, by and large, is 1/4 mile times and the kleemann cars that have been down the quarter mile seem to be 0.5 secs slower than the AMG cars.
In real performance testing a low pressure Kleemann 55 conversion is not as quick, therefore powerful, as a factory AMG, even thouhg the specs suggest otherwise.
There is nothing wrong with the Kleemann kit, I spent a few months researching it and was about to place an order for my W210 E55, before the SC'ed 211 was announced.

James F. Cannon

Sleestack,
I wasn't dissing Kleemann by mentioning Autostream's incident. I think he was running another brand of supercharger + juice trying to get his car to run low 12's. He only got to the mid 12's and destroyed his engine. I believe Signal is looking for info to help him avoid making a bad decision. And I believe he received opinions to do just that!

James F. Cannon

So the answer to the question is: no, E500 + Kleemann does not equal E55 killer!!!

Sleestack

I actually believe dyno numbers are alot more consistent than 1/4 mile times. Weather, track conditions, tires, etc. can create alot of variables affecting any particular run. I'm not sure where you are pulling your 1/4 mile times, but Benzmac's 1/4 mile time of 12.5 in a Kleemann SCed CLK55 on stock tires is not .5 seconds slower than a W211 E55. Anyway, until we get a Kleemann SCed E55 next to a stock E55, we won't really know.

Sleestack

I know you weren't trying to diss Kleemann. I thought you were trying to point out that a modified engine MB can't handle significant jumps in power. I was just pointing out that Autostream's car is not a good example b/c his approach was somewhat atypical. I believe signal was looking for information on whether a Kleemann SCed E500 was an E55 killer. I also stated that I would take the E55 with the extra .5 liter of displacement. I just thought that the perspective being offered on Kleemann SCs and MB engine tolerances was a bit off so I was trying to offer an opinion based on actual experience with the Kleemann systems.

audi 1.8t

OMG I can not take it no more.

Let see here I can get 500 HP at the wheels out of a old fashion LT1 5.7 with only 7PSI. Then I can get 500 HP out of my little 1.8 and a SRT 2.4 Neon can get almost 550 HP and the weak point is the cluch. With no reinforcing of the engine block. So your point of view is that the Mercedes-benz is no better then a Civic. OH wait a 1.6 civic could take 500 HP with no reinforcing the engine block. LOL You have a degraded point of veiw. IE (500 HP IS TO SCARY FOR A MERCEDES MOTOR). Stop the madness. Get over it. 500 Hp is not a big deal for a 5.0.

stephens

audi 1.8t
A turbo charged motor spends very little of it's time anywhere near full boost in daily driving. A positive displacement supercharger spends a great deal of time dealing with the boost.
Let's see how long a Civic or Audi motor will last on a load dyno putting out peak power. Hours, doubtfully??
It the same as 1000hp GTR's. They put out 1000hp for around 5 seconds per run.
Leave the turbo charged **** pot discussion for www.ricer.com

James F. Cannon

stephens,
I wasn't even going to respond to audi 1.8t because he clearly didn't comprehend the original question not to mention the point of anything said afterward. But it was still nice to see an appropriate response.

stephens

With a CLK being over 600lbs lighter then an E55 it should be 0.5sec quicker, given the power being equal between the cars.

audi 1.8t

True True I read the post and got mad then registered.

But you are the one that was implying that a benz motor could not take the force of the almighty 500 HP and said that anything under 14 PSI It could not be done .

audi 1.8t

Umm You have to be kidding me.


All I have to say is (Sleestack) has always been the voice of reason around here.

James F. Cannon

audi 1.8t,
Read what I said! The MB supercharged engine block is beefed up to handle the 469 to 493 HP. The block is heavier at the bottom end than the NA 5.5 engine. The reason is obvious, reliability!! They have to warranty these engines. Yes, you can extract more than 500 HP from the 5.5 liter MB engine, but for how long without a catastrophic failure? My 5.5 liter produces 440 RWHP with 14psi boost. My question is how does an equivalent amount of power get produced with half as much boost???

audi 1.8t

With you. Spend a little more time not posting the Dumb Dumb hammer and truly finding out what is out there. But I know go back to ricer.com. Leave you in your little world.

I will let you in on a little clue for your 5.0 500 HP machine.

Almost all of it has to do with cooling the discharge Temp. I hope that you know about compression. Then maybe in your pee brain of flaming me you just realize that a 500 HP benz out of a 5.0 is not to scary.

The world will not come to a end. Your car will be reliable. OOps I forgot the benz motor can not take the 500 HP of pressure. LOL

Brandon @ Kleemann

Roll eyes hammer- I like that one.

Air DENSITY is where its at. AMG SC uses a reasonably arcane water to air exchanger media that is painfully small, ineffeicent and a real pressure drop to boot. After some lengthy teardowns of AMG SC engines we find that one can actually make the same RWHP with the intercooler core REMOVED from the SC system on a V8 after heat soak. Let the flames begin, but its true. No one is advocating removing your intercooler core, the simple fact is after the with IC car reaches equalibrium in the IC system you can duplicate the power numbers with no IC core.

AMG SC engine runs 9.0:1 CR, stock E500 has 10:1. KLEEMANN SC has far superior IC exchanger media, AND it has to do less (about 1/2 the mass flow and not nearly the same thermal load), larger water radiator, 3 times the through put volume of the water pump, and seperate cooling circuit of higher volume.

Boost pressure is meaningless with out considering temperautre. 15 psi of 250 F air has similar density to 8 psi @ 100 F. In other words the same possibilty to catalyize X amount of fuel. If its race to see who can have the highest GGE pressure indicated, we know the winner here.

AMG's SC is a gear reduction unit, shaft speed is not rotor speed, there is a 1.8:1 increase in speed inside the SC transmission. Max RPM on AMG SC is 27K RPM. KLEEMANN SC tops out at 13K. The faster you turn the SC the more power it robs from the crank. Parasitic HP loss to the AMG SC is nearly 100hp, 71 with KLEEMANN.

As to the .5 second- some is in the EGS. The AMG has a very nice shifting program, Locks TQ converter earlier and executes upshifts about 40% faster. 3/10th's of your.5 second can be acounted for in the 3 gear changes to the trap in a 1/4 mile. This problem it not without its solutions however.....

Ive never run my car against a stock E55 W211, we have tuned plenty of AMG's- and they run away from a E500 with SC. It would be an interesting test/comparison. I up for it if any one has a W211 E55 AMG and want to come to Denver in the spring when the track opens- Im up for some friendly data logging.

stephens

Kleemann
I was going to ask about the potential for a Luminova (I think that is right name?) intercooler core upgrade for the AMG SC motors.
How about it??
I am currently looking at increasing the fluid capacity of the current system, but another charge cooler does seem the best way to go.

James F. Cannon

audi 1.8t,
Not trying to flame anybody, but looking for intelligent answers to my questions. I think if you do a search for actual performance numbers you will understand my questions.
KLEEMANN,
Thank you for your answer. I knew that Kleemann had a more efficient IC system but did not think it was that much more efficient. If I ever find myself in Denver or vicinity I will have to look you guys up and see what effect the altitude will have on my car. Always up for a friendly race!

audi 1.8t

Cool I was out of hand with the whole 500hp.
I just lost my pee sized mind when I saw the words 500hp and the 5.0 can not take it.

I have always been a benz fan.

The benz motor can take that power all day and all night properly tuned.

But the new S4 V8. I know Going back to rice.com.