W210

Originally posted by krispykrme
"the new M5 weight was result of conversation between the m5board.com administrator with BMW M rep at geneva. The new M5 will weight more or less with 545i. AGAIN, WHERE DID I SAY BMW WILL MAKE A M5 CSL? All i said that BMW's approach on the M5 has changed to more of a CSL philosophy. This is more than clear from BMW's official press."

Do you know what the CSL philosophy is? Thinner glass, lack of insulation, major weight reduction at the expense of comfort.

I disagree even on the "more of a CSL philosophy". Weight savings yes, CSL route no. I'm certain the M5 will have the same comfort and safety features as any other E60.

"The E60 M5 will be at least 200~400 lb lighter than the E55. In fact, the new M5 will probably be lighter than the 545i (which is amazing)".

It will be amazing IF the E60 M5 will be lighter than the 545i. But but I highly doubt it. Are they putting in carbon fibre? Or is it just wishful thinking from people who worry sick that the new M5 will not perform to their expectation?

For BMW to shake the world with the M5 concept, I was really disappointed I expected much more torque.

But then the sad part is, even if the E60 can match the E55 in acceleration, most of us, myself in particular may not want one as it's so ugly and cheap looking inside and out. And the poor ergonomics, that unusable phone dialer, I want to kill Bangle.

FIXEDupW209

is what way is smg a manual???

as if there arn't enough flames in this topic i dont want to stir up any more. But smg is pretty much just like your shifting in your E55, it has steering wheel controls? yes. you can change gears with the stick? yes. it doens't have a clutch? yes.

a manual car involves three pedals by the foot. If i am not mistaken, the smg version only has two. the accelerator and the brake. Two different things. i think its wrong for you to call it a manual as it doesn't take some knowledge to opperate.

case in point, the new m5 will not have a manual and therefore all the people who *****ed about the E55 not having a manual really dont have any options if they want a supersedan anymore.

FIXEDupW209

why is it not a true sport sedan? it handles great(might not be the best compared to a porsche0, brakes are pretty good once you get used to them, and its acceleration is uncomparable. The m5 isn't even out, you have not driven it, you have not seen it for that matter in person. You do not know how its going to handle. it has active steering jsut like the MB, and its an automatic, call it what you want but there is no clutch. Therefore that thing you liked before, the previous m5, yeah this next gerneration m5 will be nothing like it.

krispykrme

Last time i check, SMG is build on the same getrag gear box with true gears.

The only difference between SMG and Manual is that the driver loses the control of the clutch pedal and replaced by electronic hydraulic control clutch.

It has none of the automatic transmission torque converter nor plantary gear set.

To call SMG an automatic is lack of basic transmission knowledge.

krispykrme

The problem with your statement is that BMW itself has already disclosed that the weight of the M5 will be that of 545, which is already 200 LB lighter than E55. Even the M5 press release stated as such. Wishful thinking? I seriously doubt that.

CSL philosophy is indeed reducing weight from excess accessories and go with carbon fiber. In order to BMW to claim M5 to weigh less than 545 carbon will certainly be used. And perhaps way more aluminum alloy to reduce the weight. In this regard, the new M5 does take more of a CSL approach than previous M5.

krispykrme

You are completely wrong on this.

For one thing.

SMG does have a clutch, and 7 forward gears plus one reverse.

The difference between SMG and true manual is that SMG's clutch is controlled via electronics through use of hydraulics. Where in a manual the driver use the clutch pedal to control the clutch.

SMG is simply a manual transmission without the clutch pedal and that does not make it an automatic.

The automatic transmission utilize a torque converter to convert mechanical output from the engine to transfer power. The gear ratio are based on different engagement of planetary gear set.

Calling SMG an automatic is moronic. Just becaue SMG can emulate automatic shift, does not mean its an automatic by any means. All SMG does is preven driver from stalling the car.

FIXEDupW209

you dont stomp down on the clutch to engage it in the smg correct? yeah because the damn car does it for you. you push a little button on the smg control panel to change comfort settings as in the E55. you can even make it launch perfectly for you. whal else do you want it to do take little electronic arms adn refuel the car as well?

krispykrme

e55 handles great?? It handles like a boat.
Brakes are good. But feed back is not. And I am not alone on that matter.

Also, what does new M5 has to do with E55 not being a true sport sedan. Does M5 effect the way how E55 drives?

I have driven BMW AFS with ARS. It's by far superior than Mercedes setup. In fact with AFS, the E60 actually provided much better feedback than E39 M5. Contrary to popular belief, E39 M5 handles great. But steering feedback is not that great because the last M5 used the recirculating ***** instead of 6 cylindar's rack and pinion. E39 M5 steering response at high speed is light to the touch, And this was not a strong point of E39 M5.

I liked my M5, because it handles great, good brakes, and manual.

Things i did not like with the M5 was it's weight, its steering response.

Both will be addressed with the new E60. I do not like SMG only choice. But it's not an automatic. I had SMG in my M3 before I sold it in jan. I am honest in stating that I do not like SMG as its too smart for its own good. (double clutching when you don't want to, too slow in engaging the clutch). But it's still much better than a automatic.

krispykrme

The difference is that in manual mode, SMG will not upshift for you. It will cut off power output instead. I have accidentally forgot i was in M mode and had entire dash lights up after i nearly over-rev.

In addition, what does the above statment supports that SMG is an automatic transmission.

SHOW ME WHERE THE TORQUE CONVERTER IS! SHOW ME WHERE THE PLANETARY GEAR SET IS. SHOW ME WHERE SMG's CLUTCH DOES NOT EXIST.

W210

You seem to have confused a concept car with a production car. As of now, it's all speculation.

FIXEDupW209

ITS SIMPLE, when you get your m5 look down and check if your left foot is on the clutch pedal because it wont be because there is none. I take back what i said earlier, you are right there is an ELECTRONIC clutch that engages it and disenges it for you,what i am saying is that takes all the fun out of it. its "like" speedshifting with mercedes tranny, yes mercedes will correct driver error but the smg will engage and disengage the clutch and it wont upshift for you, but it will downshift and it wont let you stall out. really takes all the fun out of it. I am saying that most bmw owners were complaing and saying te E55 would be great with a MANUAL tranny, but the m5 wont have a manual tranny it will have an SMG tranny. thats all, i could care less what other people like and buy and wow omg even if the m5 is faster it will be faster by what? .1 or .2 seconds. who cares? as far as handeling goes, lets say hypotheticaly the m5 does indeed handle better(i say hypotheticly because quite frankly no one has driven one and reviewd it so its still speculation no matter who talked to whom) even if ti does handle better, the average "street" driver wont even push the car that much to the limits to test its handeling. Unless you are going to track the car i really don't see how that extra .1g on the skidpad is going to make that much of a difference.

stephens

This thread sucks

If you are looking for a sports car buy a GT3, 360CS or Gallardo, if you want a REAL four door sports car, last time I checked, it doesn't exist.

There is no where, other than a race track, that either an E55 or M5 could be pushed to the limit and most of you here (including the M5 board) would probably be beaten by a racing driver in a Mazda (Miata) MX5 on most tracks anyway.
A good driver in an M5 is going to beat a bad driver in the E55 and vice versa.
The E55 is a GT, not a sports sedan and a damn fine one at that. I don't know what the M5 is or is intended to be, because I haven't had the opportunity, like most people, to test it yet. Let's wait until it is actually released and driven by the public before we decide how good/bad/quick/ugly (well we can all agree that it is repulsive already!!) it is.

To put some objectivity into the performance banter, my 1680Kg (3700lb) 390kw (530hp), 610nm (440ftlb) 550 Maranello, which is clearly more than a match for the new M5 on paper, has its *** handed to it on a plate by my W211 E55 with a pulley kit in a straight line run and is only a match for a standard E55. The 550 is, like anything owned by me, upgraded, with performance exhaust intake etc and is quicker than a standard Maranello.
I fail to see how the M5 is going to be faster accelarating with its current specs than the E55 anywhere other than a specification sheet.

BlownV8

I looked this up to make sure:

AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION

Definition: "A type of transmission that shifts itself."

Looks like a duck. Quacks like a duck. I call it a duck! Call it what you want but the definition of automatic is that it does something without any extra input by the user. If the SMG tranny had no way of shifting besides the paddles or buttons, I'd call it a manual but since it will shift by itself it's an automatic. You can shift pretty much any automatic tranny manually and it will not shift out of gear so when we do this to an automatic tranny is it really a manual transmission?

I understand that it does not meet the automotive textbook meaning of an automatic tranny but it is not truly a manual tranny either. If it doesn't have a clutch pedal, IMHO it's not truly a manual transmission. Maybe we can call it a clutchless manual sequential transmission with an an automatic mode? I'd bet when you are selling the idea of buying a new M5 to your wife that you tell her it has an automatic transmission.

I think the SMG tranny is waaaaaay cool and it will probably lead many auto companies to converting their automatics to clutchless sequential manual automatics in the future. Who knows, maybe the SMG is the design of all future automatics?

W210

Absolutely agree with your points Stephens.

norb

Stephens, I'm just taking issue with someone's statement that the E55 doesn't have any sport in it. Which is utter rubbish, when the E55 can out perform 99% of all cars out there.

krispykrme

Regardless, SMG is not an automatic and hence much less power loss than automatic E55.

Yes, I agree without a cluth pedal, it is far less fun to drive. I am not a fan of SMG. But I would not classify it as automatic.

I have never said that .1 or .2 second matters. All i am saying is that why would it be so hard to believe that M5 would out gun E55.

FYI, i do plan on tracking the M5. And am thinking of getting two instead of one (one which I plan to transform it to a complete track car with roll cage).

May be that 0.1g does not matter to average driver. But please do not generalize that no one would care.

krispykrme

Regardless, SMG is not an automatic and hence much less power loss than automatic E55.

Yes, I agree without a cluth pedal, it is far less fun to drive. I am not a fan of SMG. But I would not classify it as automatic.

I have never said that .1 or .2 second matters. All i am saying is that why would it be so hard to believe that M5 would out gun E55.

FYI, i do plan on tracking the M5. And am thinking of getting two instead of one (one which I plan to transform it to a complete track car with roll cage).

May be that 0.1g does not matter to average driver. But please do not generalize that no one would care.

norb

Oh really? Track the M5? Make sure to post pictures when and if that happens.

krispykrme

No one here is mistaking a sports car for a sports sedan. If you want to make a argument, please base on the E55 merit alone. No need to drap GT3/Gallardo in. I have been looking into getting a Gallardo for a while. But I am not going to pay any kind of premium on it.

And what does this has to do with E55 being a sports sedan or not.

My point is very clear. E55 is not a true sports sedan. It's a great touring car with out of the world Power. That's it. I fail to see how the straight line performance would justify E55 to be a sports car.

krispykrme

I am more than willing to back that up. would you care to back yourself up?

As soon I get my M5 and past the 1200 miles break in. I would be more than happy to track it.

FIXEDupW209

you keep saying SMG isn't an automatic well i can tell you its not manual either. nothing is manual about it. you fuq up and the computer fixes it! yeah it wont upshift but put it in auto mode and it will do everything an automatic will do.

norb

One nice thing about SMG, it won't let you down shift if the rev's will be to high. Nothing wrong with that.

If the SMG on the M5 is anything like the SMG on the M3, it won't be very luxurious. The automatic mode is terrible, the manual mode only moderately smooth, but oh when you floor it at WOT, then it really shines.

What BMW needs to do is copy VW's new Direct Shift where there are actually two clutches, on for the out going gear and one for the incoming one. Very smooth, so I've read.

W210

Would love to see the two E60 M5s side by side, one street version and the other, track. Please share with us the photos.

But did you get your wife's approval though? Just kidding!

W210

I think what Stephens just pointed out is that the 550 he owns, with similar power/torque/weight as the speculated E60 M5 is only a match to a stock W211 E55.

For the track, my ideal car would be the Lotus Elise with the RS4 engine, not a 3,500 lb.+ sedan. I read somewhere the RS6, while tuned for the track with the rough suspension setting, was horrible around the ring due to the brakes overheating.

stephens

No one says the E55 is, however you are implying the M5 is something it is not, pure and simple.
Are you kain's cousin?