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So I plugged the throttle body in with my adapter cable, put the key in and turned to position 2, voila, it moves wonderfully with the pedal. However, at like 20-25% throttle on the pedal, the throttle body is wide open.
I have not done a TB reset or anything of the sort to attempt to remedy this. Can anyone tell me if this has happened to them? If so, what fixed it?
So I plugged the throttle body in with my adapter cable, put the key in and turned to position 2, voila, it moves wonderfully with the pedal. However, at like 20-25% throttle on the pedal, the throttle body is wide open.
I have not done a TB reset or anything of the sort to attempt to remedy this. Can anyone tell me if this has happened to them? If so, what fixed it?
Welcome to dbw tb
Even thought you think you are pressing the pedal halfway doesn't mean you will get 50% open
Dbw means drive by wire
Funny, I figured the DBW systems would have replicated the old ways.. oh well. I'm going to assume this is normal and when the engine is running, it will automatically adjust how much or how little the throttle body opens and closes.
oh well, at least further progress will start as of Monday. I need to get a full argon bottle since I've depleted my medium sized bottle making my welding cart.
Any recommended intake kit with the 90mm? Looks like there all custom and nobody really sells something that will bolt on that i see? Thats the last thing holding me back so i can get a dyno tune!
Yeah, basically what Hulk said. The only way to get a 90mm TB on the car is a custom modified inlet/snout. If I had people willing to invest, i'd happily dedicate my time to creating a custom snout. I'd need a couple weeks to develop the 3D model in CAD and then have a casting company give me a quote on a mold. The only issue that we will run into is how much they're going to cost. I could even throw in my design time for free, save everyone on the R&D in terms of funding the design, and it wouldn't make a difference the companies that make molds for a design like this would want a pretty penny, not to mention a LARGE production run. As in +500 pieces, anything below that and the costs go up exponentially again. I have access to CNC machines and can have the work done. However, again, its added costs. I cant run the machines for free.
The other option is a 100% full billet version. Start with a billet of 6061-T6 aluminum, or for those weight watchers, 7075-Spacecraft grade. again, I could design the part, and come up with the CNC program, but who is going to want to pay for +20Hrs of machining time? not many.. the snout would require 3-4 different setups. Meaning 3-4 different holders and locating assemblies. Therefore 3-4 different machines running to get them cut its do-able. Just as anything is, but how much are you willing to part with in order for this to happen? $1500USD? $2000USD? more? I'd love to create a one-off for myself and see what people think. I will have a Spare snout when i swap mine for the 90mm, I can gather all the data points and critical measurements from that one. But is it worth it?
Any recommended intake kit with the 90mm? Looks like there all custom and nobody really sells something that will bolt on that i see? Thats the last thing holding me back so i can get a dyno tune!
Sorry, I mis-read your question, I thought you were speaking about the snout. If you are looking for an intake setup, give Rob @ NeedsWings Performance a call. I bought my dual 3inch intake system from him has two 5 inch filters on either side of the motor with all 3inch mandrel bent piping, looks great, fits great and sounds amazing (supercharger whine). He has different "Y" pipes available when you buy the kit. Speak to him first and make sure you mention what size TB you have and he should be able to help.
NeedsWings Dual Intake Kit with Black Teflon Coating inside and out. OEM 74mm TB at the time.
Before I went FSP. This picture is on his website.
Idk, i cant see the point of the bigger tb, since that factory plenum reguardless on what type of adapter you weld on the back of it you can not get any larger fill of air into the supercharger. It would be nice if someone would tackle a plenum with a elbow, to run a larger tb. something similar to the weistec blower but adapts to ours.
Idk, i cant see the point of the bigger tb, since that factory plenum reguardless on what type of adapter you weld on the back of it you can not get any larger fill of air into the supercharger. It would be nice if someone would tackle a plenum with a elbow, to run a larger tb. something similar to the weistec blower but adapts to ours.
Are you talking about the supercharger inlet? As far as I know everyone installing larger throttle bodies are installing larger inlets as well.
Idk, i cant see the point of the bigger tb, since that factory plenum reguardless on what type of adapter you weld on the back of it you can not get any larger fill of air into the supercharger. It would be nice if someone would tackle a plenum with a elbow, to run a larger tb. something similar to the weistec blower but adapts to ours.
Im going to disagree with you, politely of course. Once the supercharger inlet/snout is removed, the actual surface area where the opening is to the twin screws is dramatically larger than the surface area of a 74mm bore.
Lets do some simple math, Area of a circle = (pi)*((r)^2).
R= D/2 = (74mm)/2 = 37mm
Area (OEM) = (pi)*((37mm)^2) = 4300mm^2 OR (4300 square milimeters)
Area of BBK90 = (pi)*((45mm)^2) = 6361.72mm^2 OR (6362 square milimeters)
Area represented by the intake plenum at the screws... this will be approximate, i will divide it into separate areas and get a rough calculation i wont go and show dimensions, but to say the least, it will be about 90% accurate, basically close enough for this "experiment".
Area (not including the large obtrusion that covers the supercharger bearings, only where they meet the screws...
The approximate surface area that I measured was in and around 15.3sq.in.
lets take that 0.3 off to even further reduce the numbers for an "worst case scenario" value (I have under valued the amount at 15.3sq.in. already)
Area = 15sq.in. converts to square mm by multiplying by 25.4^2
Area = 9677.4mm^2 OR (9677 square milimeters)
Therefore, even with the massive 90mm throttle body, we are still limiting the potential by approximately 3300mm^2.
No "adapter" plate will work, but a custom welded intake like the ones made by Denroll and others who have built up weld and then bored the hole, yes, its definitely a gain.
Cheers,
Pete @ PDG.Performance
For those who have instagram, check out my page, all the intake pictures are there @pdg.performance
I can tell you most E55 owners nowadays are cheap. The amount of people that would spend $2k+ on a new snout is very limited. No way you'd sell 500+. Secondly the gains between a 82mm TB (which is readily available) vs a 90mm TB has yet to be fully documented as far as I know. Then comes the tuning/drivability issues. I am back to a 82mm TB and drives much better than the 90mm TB did. At least on my car.
High manufacturing cost? Do 3d printing! Print in high strength PLA, ABS, or some of the new metal PLA materials.
Don't have a 3d printer? Have a design printed by a 3d party (such as 3dhubs.com)
The 3D printing option might be the solution. It would dramatically reduce costs for manufacturing. I'm sure it would still cost a decent amount though. especially in limited production runs (below 20-25). But I do agree, it would be drammatically cheaper than the alternatives.
As for drive-ability, I'm not sure that there is going to be much difference between the 82mm and 90mm. Some guys (very very few) had no issues going from stock to 80/82 and again up to 90mm no issues (or so they claim). Some went to BIP for a tune and they say it solved their issues, some say the latest updated tune from EC was good too (fixed pulley guys). No one has 100% confirmed it, not even the big guys themselves (eurocharged/BIP or any other tuners). If you have problems as is, the 90mm wont make the problems worse, they may be the same problems but more pronounced. Will it introduce any more problems? I cant speak for it personally until I'm done with my installation.
Gains compared to the 80/82mm? well, from a purely logical stand point, i dont see why there wouldn't be any significant gains. Provided that the car has an intake system on it with at least dual 3inch piping, and a proper custom modified supercharger inlet. If its an adapter plate type disaster, then no i wouldnt expect any gains. An adapter doesnt change anything aside from the mounting bolt pattern, if the bore isnt opened up to AT LEAST 90mm, you've wasted your time. either way, whether it be the stock 74mm TB opening acting as a choke, or the bore on the inlet being only 75/80 depending on the type of snout (S/CL/SL vs E/CLS) then again, its acting as a choke (for the 90mm).
A properly done supercharger inlet should allow for a significant reduction in restriction. Thus, allowing more air to flow more easily into the engine. Pressure/vacuum are restrictions to flow. We all know, more flow, more go. Its been proven time and time again, even at lower boost levels (which everyone seems to think means power) more flow will make more power.
so are you doing more work other then opening the area where the tb sits? because its the remainder of the plenum i was talking about. Or curious what a whole new plenum might do.
so are you doing more work other then opening the area where the tb sits? because its the remainder of the plenum i was talking about. Or curious what a whole new plenum might do.
I am welding up material and then machining the surface flat and then boring the 90mm hole. You are referring to the internal chamber of the snout correct? I answered your question regarding the amount of air volume in my calculations.
The area I'm referring to is specifically where the snout meets the supercharger. The area looks like an upside down "U".
This area:
For my calculations, i did not include the middle area, the "mickey mouse ears" area because that covers the rear bearings of the supercharger. that area adds up to MUCH more than the 90mm throttle body area.
That area of air is already dramatically larger than the 90mm throttle body. I am going to be "porting" the snout after the 90mm bore is placed in. we can only go so deep boring it simply due to the bypass valve. With the porting, it will allow for a smoother transition and of course, less obstruction to airflow to getting into the supercharger.
All the built up weld can be ground off from the inside, which is what I'm calling porting the snout. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my calculations, sorry for the confusion. Hopefully this will clear things up for you.
Anyways, here is where I'm at for those who don't have instagram.
Started with a regular 74mm Snout from an E55 or CLS55
Really quickly hacked up a paper gasket to give me a rough idea of how much welding i had to do.
This is after many hours of welding and welding and more welding. I used about 16 filler rods of aluminum that was 1/8" diameter.
This was a very quick skim cut on the mill today, some voids need to be filled, but its not done yet.
This was the same gasket and as you can see, a tonne of welding has been done and its 90% there. needs a couple more passes on the bottom and left side, but again, progress is progress. needed to see where and how much more needed to be done.
I also milled off the vacuum port as far as I could go without breaking into the lowest counter bore. I then tapped it with a 1/4" NPT tap and used a brass plug with some teflon tape to seal it off for good. My car simply has a block off plug in it, so its not needed. some earlier cars used it as a brake booster line.
01-15-2017, 10:43 AM
