Needswings tweeked manifolds E55
#26
Plus if you look at the tubes they are awfully small to feed a cylinder {volume} at 6,000 rpm....maybe down low but up top I just don't see it. But again the theory appears to work.....I guess ?? Who knows.
Unrelated but along the same lines sort of with intake volume:
What I am doing,shot in the dark, is having the two intakes Extrude honed to pick up some air flow so I will let you know what that doe's.
Unrelated but along the same lines sort of with intake volume:
What I am doing,shot in the dark, is having the two intakes Extrude honed to pick up some air flow so I will let you know what that doe's.
****, people talk about getting 30+ hp going from 74mm to an 82mm throttle body, that's effectively going from 6.7 sq inch to 8.2 sq inch in area which is only a 22% increase in flow area. Now granted that's on the suction side of the SC not the discharge and I'm sure it is not the same comparison, but that's kind of where my thinking is. The cross overs are small but the overall increase in flow area by adding them is pretty significant I'd say. I bet I could get this done for <100$ at a local machine shop. I would love to see what it actually did haha.
Last edited by drothgeb; 04-26-2018 at 02:23 PM.
#27
Super Member
Personally i think extrode honing would really make a good difference and such. Heres my plan and i dont know if it will work or not its just a thought. If one were to just pull off the surge tanks an cut an weld a bigger tank on this would help an then one could port the tubes going to the back side giving them better flow. If this theory holds true then it would lower the work the supercharger has to do an lower heat build up as well as a by product. Hummmmmm if only i had good welding skills lol
#29
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 3,421
Received 284 Likes
on
233 Posts
2005 E55 AMG, 1991 MR2
Looks like standard straight hose coupler cut to size. Some angled edges would help with the bend in the hose. I would love for this to work. Hopefully someone can complete the monumental task of getting some before after dyno and boost logs one day.
#31
I'm wondering about the actual pipe not the coupler, I'm guessing 2" aluminum tube from some where? I don't know what material the manifolds actually are. Gotta find a good aluminum welder I think :-P If I end up trying it I will definitely do logs before/after.
#32
Junior Member
Thread Starter
45° Degree coupler cut to size and 2" aluminium pipe. I added an aluminium bend to the silicone coupler (inside) or somewhat, because the slicone contracts under vacuum
On a 55 it would be easier to fit. I would use a 2.5" pipe. but not round rather oval pipe.
Its no science. it takes 2-3 hours to fit including aluminium welding.
Steven
Berlin Germany
Last edited by No2fast; 04-29-2018 at 07:51 AM.
#34
I just reached out to a couple local machine shops to get a quote for the work. If I get it done I wont have back to back dyno pulls but I will have back to back 1/4 mile trips(Had a good day yesterday ) and torque pro logs with no other changes
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
Look forward to it drothgeb !!
I will only do one mod at a time,not for cost but logistics, and decided on the Extrude hone first since doing two things at one time, Extrude/Cross Over, will not give me a fair opinion on what worked and what didn't.
I will only do one mod at a time,not for cost but logistics, and decided on the Extrude hone first since doing two things at one time, Extrude/Cross Over, will not give me a fair opinion on what worked and what didn't.
#36
Should have them back tomorrow. I am having two 1.5" crossovers done for a total cross sectional area addition of 3.5sq". The Y necks are 2" diameter with an area of 3.14sq", so the dual 1.5" cross overs should allow full utilization of the opposite side Y pipe. I chose 1.5" because a size down 2x 1.25" tubes only provides a total cross sectional area of 2.5sq" so I figured if the flow potential is there to utilize the other side pipe, the cross overs would still be slightly restrictive at 2x 1.25" (all speculation, the flow may not be needed at all, but we will see!)
I got them back with the front cross over tacked on before cutting into the manifold for a mockup. (The front has tight clearance but the rear has plenty.) Muck up fit perfect (with the exception of a 1/16" offset he will fix but the coupler could've eaten it up no problem) so I should have them back completed tomorrow.
Extra 0.5" will be shaved off each side for a 1" gap between to be taken up by the coupler.
Foil is for verifying hood clearance, had tons
I got them back with the front cross over tacked on before cutting into the manifold for a mockup. (The front has tight clearance but the rear has plenty.) Muck up fit perfect (with the exception of a 1/16" offset he will fix but the coupler could've eaten it up no problem) so I should have them back completed tomorrow.
Extra 0.5" will be shaved off each side for a 1" gap between to be taken up by the coupler.
Foil is for verifying hood clearance, had tons
The following 2 users liked this post by drothgeb:
eFifty5AMG (05-17-2018),
tw2 (05-17-2018)
#42
Well folks, I have some results. Got them back, got them on, and I am seeing 1.5 to 2 PSI drop from previous pressures. I did try to log them but forgot I had turned boost off in torque. Another good sign is that I reset the battery and took had to make a 90 mile round trip. At the end of the trip my LTFTs were at -2% (fuel trims are swapped as far as I know so negative is adding fuel) and prior to the manifold mod my LTFTs were at about +5% (pulling fuel) so just based of the 90 mile trip it appears there it is better flowing.
To recap so far I have:
Finished product:
I will clean them up later, maybe powder coat but for now I was rushing to get them on:
Now, tomorrow is track day! No other changes made, similar DA as my last visit. I will get some good logs, and see if I get any 1/4 miles changes!
To recap so far I have:
- 1.5 to 2 PSI drop
- ~ 7 % addition of fuel in LTFTs. My hopes are due to the additional air flow haha ( (Granted this is only 90 miles and the LTFTs could still adjust some what)
Finished product:
I will clean them up later, maybe powder coat but for now I was rushing to get them on:
Now, tomorrow is track day! No other changes made, similar DA as my last visit. I will get some good logs, and see if I get any 1/4 miles changes!
#44
- Approx 5kw(7hp) reduction of SC load on the motor (+7hp)
- About a 10C reduction in discharge temp!??! Damn.
EDIT: Actually may not be much better at 32 vs 20 airflow, I saw the kW lines get closer but it looks like they go a bit more vertical too, and temp difference appears similar or the same. Might not be much difference whether it's 20 or 32 m3/min airflow.
EDIT again: looks like SC RPM is easy: 151(stock crank)/77 = 1.96 x 6500 (max rpm) = ~ 12,750 max SC RPM. Looking at the numbers again at about the 28 m3/min flow spot comes out to about the same 5kw/10C difference.
Last edited by drothgeb; 05-18-2018 at 12:51 AM.
#45
Junior Member
Those look awesome. Hoping for positive results under further testing! If your original LTFT's were "Positive", it was adding fuel, so your new "Negative" fuel trims are pulling fuel. You may have cured some minor intake leaks during re-assembly. Are you using TORQUE? I f so, STFT would roughly equate to "ADDITIVE" in MBZ specific which is primarily idle. LTFT would roughly equate to "MULTIPLICATIVE" in MBZ specific which would be everything off idle and beyond.
#46
Those look awesome. Hoping for positive results under further testing! If your original LTFT's were "Positive", it was adding fuel, so your new "Negative" fuel trims are pulling fuel. You may have cured some minor intake leaks during re-assembly. Are you using TORQUE? I f so, STFT would roughly equate to "ADDITIVE" in MBZ specific which is primarily idle. LTFT would roughly equate to "MULTIPLICATIVE" in MBZ specific which would be everything off idle and beyond.
If you use a regular american OBDII scanner on a Mercedes negative LTFT mean the ecu is adding fuel vice veresa. So for example you put bigger injector and your LTFT are negative that means the ECU is trying to add fuel and hence you need a tune to scale those injectors correctly. On all stock cars LTFT will be between -2 and + 2 %. Any time LTFT go beyoud -25 to +25 % the CEL will be triggerd with a lean or rich condition code on a particular bank.
Hope this Helps
Hope this Helps
#47
Junior Member
Not in my experience but I will try to do some investigating and verification tomorrow at work. If I interpret his explanation correctly, By installing bigger injectors and maintaining the original fuel map (for the original injectors) of say 3ms injector on time, the new, larger injectors would flow a greater volume of of fuel per pulse. The negative LTFT would be in response to the upstream O2 sensors higher voltage due to the richer mixture / extra fuel. Thus the negative LTFT would actually be the ME control units adjustment to take away the excessive fuel provided by the larger injectors.
#48
Not in my experience but I will try to do some investigating and verification tomorrow at work. If I interpret his explanation correctly, By installing bigger injectors and maintaining the original fuel map (for the original injectors) of say 3ms injector on time, the new, larger injectors would flow a greater volume of of fuel per pulse. The negative LTFT would be in response to the upstream O2 sensors higher voltage due to the richer mixture / extra fuel. Thus the negative LTFT would actually be the ME control units adjustment to take away the excessive fuel provided by the larger injectors.
Last edited by drothgeb; 05-18-2018 at 02:16 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Amir_AMG (09-06-2019)
#49
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Well folks, I have some results. Got them back, got them on, and I am seeing 1.5 to 2 PSI drop from previous pressures. I did try to log them but forgot I had turned boost off in torque. Another good sign is that I reset the battery and took had to make a 90 mile round trip. At the end of the trip my LTFTs were at -2% (fuel trims are swapped as far as I know so negative is adding fuel) and prior to the manifold mod my LTFTs were at about +5% (pulling fuel) so just based of the 90 mile trip it appears there it is better flowing.
To recap so far I have:
Finished product:
I will clean them up later, maybe powder coat but for now I was rushing to get them on:
Now, tomorrow is track day! No other changes made, similar DA as my last visit. I will get some good logs, and see if I get any 1/4 miles changes!
To recap so far I have:
- 1.5 to 2 PSI drop
- ~ 7 % addition of fuel in LTFTs. My hopes are due to the additional air flow haha ( (Granted this is only 90 miles and the LTFTs could still adjust some what)
Finished product:
I will clean them up later, maybe powder coat but for now I was rushing to get them on:
Now, tomorrow is track day! No other changes made, similar DA as my last visit. I will get some good logs, and see if I get any 1/4 miles changes!
Very nice work! I wouldn`t being focused on the ltf / stf stuff too much. This is mainly for the closed loop not for WOT!. I am pretty sure the ecu needs some time to adapt the fuel maps. There should be much more torque in low / midrange rpm`s from my experience with the SLK32.
You don`t have a AFR / Lambda tool?
Steven
Berlin Germany
#50
Super Member
Not to detract/derail. But certainly a fair whack less than the 4-5psi that needwings are flogging. Guess the 1-2 might allow for slightly more aggressive pullies for extra gain?