Additional Supercharger cooling radiater installed today
05-22-2004, 08:10 AM
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Additional Supercharger cooling radiater installed today
I installed the large SC cooler from the SL55 today.
I don't have formal dyno results, or Star Diagnostics readings on air intake temperatures etc yet, because we only finnished at 8.00pm, from an 8.00am start! These will be done tomorrow.
The job turned out to be a real b1tch. The fittings from the SL55 cooler had to be moved and changed, a custom aircon condensor made up along with the obligitory mounts etc.
The unit was installed in parallel with the current unit, using an additional pump, which is wired to run from the air intake temp sensor. It turned out very well, you cannot tell that it is not a factory option, but there is a lot of work involved.
I did take the car for a few quick runs on the G-tech Comp on the way home. At 100mph the car is showing an additional 30rwhp , with no falling away of the power to the rev limit in third gear. More importantly the terminal speed at the end of the 1/4 mile increased by a consistent 4mph as well.
I don't have formal dyno results, or Star Diagnostics readings on air intake temperatures etc yet, because we only finnished at 8.00pm, from an 8.00am start! These will be done tomorrow.
The job turned out to be a real b1tch. The fittings from the SL55 cooler had to be moved and changed, a custom aircon condensor made up along with the obligitory mounts etc.
The unit was installed in parallel with the current unit, using an additional pump, which is wired to run from the air intake temp sensor. It turned out very well, you cannot tell that it is not a factory option, but there is a lot of work involved.
I did take the car for a few quick runs on the G-tech Comp on the way home. At 100mph the car is showing an additional 30rwhp , with no falling away of the power to the rev limit in third gear. More importantly the terminal speed at the end of the 1/4 mile increased by a consistent 4mph as well.
05-22-2004, 06:28 PM
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The car is running beautifully. Before I did the G-tech runs, it was noticebly punchier. I think having one pump running effectively full time really helps.
I will reserve my final judgement until we plug in Star Diagnostics. It is only really feasible to do this at night, because testing involves repeated 0-200kmh runs. My partner in crime is coming over tonight with the test equipment, to finnish testing, I will then get the car onto a chassis dyno next week for the final results.
Asa side note, after finalising headers, I will be re-visiting the charge cooling by adding a trunk mounted coolant reservoir that can be filled with dry ice for drag racing purposes. This will provide the ability to reduce intake temps to less than 40 degrees F independent of the climatic conditions at the time and should be worth at least 0.5 seconds on an 85 degree day.
I will reserve my final judgement until we plug in Star Diagnostics. It is only really feasible to do this at night, because testing involves repeated 0-200kmh runs. My partner in crime is coming over tonight with the test equipment, to finnish testing, I will then get the car onto a chassis dyno next week for the final results.
Asa side note, after finalising headers, I will be re-visiting the charge cooling by adding a trunk mounted coolant reservoir that can be filled with dry ice for drag racing purposes. This will provide the ability to reduce intake temps to less than 40 degrees F independent of the climatic conditions at the time and should be worth at least 0.5 seconds on an 85 degree day.
05-22-2004, 10:32 PM
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Originally posted by stephens
As a side note, after finalising headers, I will be re-visiting the charge cooling by adding a trunk mounted coolant reservoir that can be filled with dry ice for drag racing purposes. This will provide the ability to reduce intake temps to less than 40 degrees F independent of the climatic conditions at the time and should be worth at least 0.5 seconds on an 85 degree day.
As a side note, after finalising headers, I will be re-visiting the charge cooling by adding a trunk mounted coolant reservoir that can be filled with dry ice for drag racing purposes. This will provide the ability to reduce intake temps to less than 40 degrees F independent of the climatic conditions at the time and should be worth at least 0.5 seconds on an 85 degree day.
05-23-2004, 12:24 AM
#7
Stephans:
You have no idea how welcome you would be in the Porsche turbo world with all your mods. Here, you are a cool freek, but there, you would be welcomed by numerous "like minded" individuals. Great work and keep us posted.
You have no idea how welcome you would be in the Porsche turbo world with all your mods. Here, you are a cool freek, but there, you would be welcomed by numerous "like minded" individuals. Great work and keep us posted.
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05-23-2004, 03:20 AM
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Thanks guys, I'm convinced a reliable 700hp is achievable with no further boost required. Given how cheap the E55 is in the USA, I'm surprised a lot more people aren't messing around with them.
In fact for the cost of my E55, 550 and 330 Convertible here, I could have the E55, F550, 360spider and an Enzo in the US.
Worse than that, my Ducati race bike cost as much as an E55 in the States.
Oh well, I will console myself with the fact that we have better public health and Social Security programs that need to be funded.
In fact for the cost of my E55, 550 and 330 Convertible here, I could have the E55, F550, 360spider and an Enzo in the US.
Worse than that, my Ducati race bike cost as much as an E55 in the States.
Oh well, I will console myself with the fact that we have better public health and Social Security programs that need to be funded.
05-23-2004, 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by stephens
Oh well, I will console myself with the fact that we have better public health and Social Security programs that need to be funded.
Oh well, I will console myself with the fact that we have better public health and Social Security programs that need to be funded.
05-23-2004, 11:07 AM
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Good point 
On to serious business.
We took the car back to our "test strip" with Gtech Comp and Star Diagnostics tonight. As a side note the gains seen on the GTech Comp from Saturday night were consistently repeated. I can't reccomend the unit highly enough as a consistent dynamic dyno unit and tuning aid.
Runs were done in 19.5 degree C ambient temps (around 70F)
Three 1/4 mile runs were done back to back with an approximate 2 minute break between each run.( The time taken to do a U turn and return to the original starting point) There was an additional 3rd gear run from 60kmh to 200kmh, to get a dyno reading from the Gtech Comp.
After the first run AIT (air intake temp) ran around 13 degree C (23 degrees F) above ambient. Under boost at the end of the 1/4 mile max temp seen was 56 degree C (133 degree F). This was consistent for each run. With temps recovering to 45 degrees almost instantly and back to 33 degrees with 10 seconds.
Summary:
Orginally I was seeing 83 degree temps at the end of a run with ambient temps of 11.5 degree C, a rise of 71 degree C (128 degrees F), based on a single run.
After replacing water pump, using water wetter, 20% coolant mix this reduced to 68 degrees on a 12.5 degree ambient day, a 55 degree C (99 degree F) rise, based on a single run.
This latest test was at 19.5 degree C, 20% coolant mix, no water wetter this time (I ran out and couldn't find any in stock), max temp 56 degrees, a 36.5 degree C (65 degree F) rise, based on 4 back to back runs.
Conclusion
Success! I was initially concerned that the actual charge cooler unit did not have sufficient thermal capacity to absorb the heat from the intake charge. and increasing the recovery side of the circuit would not help.
I will be trying again in the next few days with the addition of water wetter and replacing the secondary pump. This was the unit originally taken from my car as being suspected faulty, so the results can only get better.
After this, the next step will be to plumb in the additional coolant capacity and split the charge cooling recovery circuit from the engine cooling circuit, which was not done because we did not have a filler fitting to put into the circuit.
On to serious business.
We took the car back to our "test strip" with Gtech Comp and Star Diagnostics tonight. As a side note the gains seen on the GTech Comp from Saturday night were consistently repeated. I can't reccomend the unit highly enough as a consistent dynamic dyno unit and tuning aid.
Runs were done in 19.5 degree C ambient temps (around 70F)
Three 1/4 mile runs were done back to back with an approximate 2 minute break between each run.( The time taken to do a U turn and return to the original starting point) There was an additional 3rd gear run from 60kmh to 200kmh, to get a dyno reading from the Gtech Comp.
After the first run AIT (air intake temp) ran around 13 degree C (23 degrees F) above ambient. Under boost at the end of the 1/4 mile max temp seen was 56 degree C (133 degree F). This was consistent for each run. With temps recovering to 45 degrees almost instantly and back to 33 degrees with 10 seconds.
Summary:
Orginally I was seeing 83 degree temps at the end of a run with ambient temps of 11.5 degree C, a rise of 71 degree C (128 degrees F), based on a single run.
After replacing water pump, using water wetter, 20% coolant mix this reduced to 68 degrees on a 12.5 degree ambient day, a 55 degree C (99 degree F) rise, based on a single run.
This latest test was at 19.5 degree C, 20% coolant mix, no water wetter this time (I ran out and couldn't find any in stock), max temp 56 degrees, a 36.5 degree C (65 degree F) rise, based on 4 back to back runs.
Conclusion
Success! I was initially concerned that the actual charge cooler unit did not have sufficient thermal capacity to absorb the heat from the intake charge. and increasing the recovery side of the circuit would not help.
I will be trying again in the next few days with the addition of water wetter and replacing the secondary pump. This was the unit originally taken from my car as being suspected faulty, so the results can only get better.
After this, the next step will be to plumb in the additional coolant capacity and split the charge cooling recovery circuit from the engine cooling circuit, which was not done because we did not have a filler fitting to put into the circuit.
Last edited by stephens; 05-23-2004 at 11:13 AM.
05-23-2004, 01:36 PM
#12
Originally posted by stephens
I will be re-visiting the charge cooling by adding a trunk mounted coolant reservoir that can be filled with dry ice for drag racing purposes.
I will be re-visiting the charge cooling by adding a trunk mounted coolant reservoir that can be filled with dry ice for drag racing purposes.
yup i was looking into that also ..jsut add something like this in the trunk
any size/shape and just run lines up the front (the wrx sti has this stock)
05-25-2004, 12:01 PM
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Stephens:
I'm impressed by your desire to bring our E-55's to the next level!! Congrats on all you've done and I'm bigtime curious to the improvement of performance with the additional cooling. I'll be the first to line up for this upgrade as long as it can be done with the quality and reliability expected of MB's. Any speculation as to the $'s for this upgrade?? I'll do at all together with the pulley-ecu upgrade.
I'm impressed by your desire to bring our E-55's to the next level!! Congrats on all you've done and I'm bigtime curious to the improvement of performance with the additional cooling. I'll be the first to line up for this upgrade as long as it can be done with the quality and reliability expected of MB's. Any speculation as to the $'s for this upgrade?? I'll do at all together with the pulley-ecu upgrade.
05-25-2004, 10:52 PM
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Updated news.
Took the car to the dyno today, reflected the results seen on the G-tech Comp exactly!
Peak power increased by 20Kw, with an increase of 10kw starting from 2000rpm, based on the cooling system upgrade alone.
Peak power is between 5000 and 5700rpm, falling away by 20kw at 6000rpm and 60kw before changing gears into 4th at around 6400rpm.
The AFR is aboslutely horrible though, falling from 12.5 at 2500rpm steadily down to 10 at the rev limit, with an AFR of 10.5 at peak power.
Engine coolant temperature REDUCED under load, I suspect as a result of the primary SC water pump kicking in and both SC radiators, which still share water cooling duties with the main radiator, helping cool the engine.
Air intake temps were the same as seen on the street in dynamic conditions, starting at 23 degrees C and rising to a max of 55 degrees C.
With further modifications tonight I am confident of getting temps under 50 degree C max.
Once this is completed, time to remap the fuelling and ignition. as there appears to be plenty of further potential with the current settings it is running.
Taking into account aerodynamic losses ( I have a modelling program that enables this calculation courtesy of some German friends) the G-Tech comp suggests rwhp of 470hp and the dyno corrected to shoot out mode (this gives similar readings on a Dyno Dynamics to those on a Dynojet that you guys seem to use) is 470hp. I am now confident in seeing 500rwhp before fitting headers and as much as 550 with heders installed.
Three runs were done in a row less than 5 minutes apart, from 2000rpm to redline, with 2kw power difference between runs. It looks like the cooling problem is licked!
Took the car to the dyno today, reflected the results seen on the G-tech Comp exactly!
Peak power increased by 20Kw, with an increase of 10kw starting from 2000rpm, based on the cooling system upgrade alone.
Peak power is between 5000 and 5700rpm, falling away by 20kw at 6000rpm and 60kw before changing gears into 4th at around 6400rpm.
The AFR is aboslutely horrible though, falling from 12.5 at 2500rpm steadily down to 10 at the rev limit, with an AFR of 10.5 at peak power.
Engine coolant temperature REDUCED under load, I suspect as a result of the primary SC water pump kicking in and both SC radiators, which still share water cooling duties with the main radiator, helping cool the engine.
Air intake temps were the same as seen on the street in dynamic conditions, starting at 23 degrees C and rising to a max of 55 degrees C.
With further modifications tonight I am confident of getting temps under 50 degree C max.
Once this is completed, time to remap the fuelling and ignition. as there appears to be plenty of further potential with the current settings it is running.
Taking into account aerodynamic losses ( I have a modelling program that enables this calculation courtesy of some German friends) the G-Tech comp suggests rwhp of 470hp and the dyno corrected to shoot out mode (this gives similar readings on a Dyno Dynamics to those on a Dynojet that you guys seem to use) is 470hp. I am now confident in seeing 500rwhp before fitting headers and as much as 550 with heders installed.
Three runs were done in a row less than 5 minutes apart, from 2000rpm to redline, with 2kw power difference between runs. It looks like the cooling problem is licked!
05-25-2004, 11:25 PM
#15
Stephens,
Awesome work man! I agree, I think 700hp is achievable.
By the way, how much did this extra cooling system set you back? Do you have part #s and total cost excluding install time? You should sell this idea to the tuners!
You looking into the LSD? When I do the Kleeman Limited slip I want to swap out the 396 gears (believe that is what it has) to 411s...hope some tuner has that. Should be good for 0.5 off the 1/4 with the LSD and gearing.
Awesome work man! I agree, I think 700hp is achievable.
By the way, how much did this extra cooling system set you back? Do you have part #s and total cost excluding install time? You should sell this idea to the tuners!
You looking into the LSD? When I do the Kleeman Limited slip I want to swap out the 396 gears (believe that is what it has) to 411s...hope some tuner has that. Should be good for 0.5 off the 1/4 with the LSD and gearing.
05-25-2004, 11:38 PM
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I am in the process of putting together a marketable kit myself.
I don't think changing gearing is going to produce the expected results. A change to 2.83 LSD may be worthwhile, but with the torque the car produces, I don't believe a radical change in gearing will do anything except cause traction problems. The car seems very well suited to the gearing currently in it.
I don't think changing gearing is going to produce the expected results. A change to 2.83 LSD may be worthwhile, but with the torque the car produces, I don't believe a radical change in gearing will do anything except cause traction problems. The car seems very well suited to the gearing currently in it.
05-26-2004, 10:19 AM
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Concerning the rear end gearing:
The rear end now carries a stock 2:65 gear. The most realistic change would be a 2:82(as in SL55) This would not help in 0-60 really but we would probably see significant improvement in 1/4 mi times and trap speeds. In range of .3 secs and 3-4 mph. I've done some calcs. and improvement is based on being in the power band of 3rd gear thru end of 1/4 mi. Max HP (6100rpm) would be achieved at 119.5 mph with the top of third being 126 mph.(based on a 275/35/18 rear tire) Hence the 2:82 seems to be a perfect fit for results.
The rear end now carries a stock 2:65 gear. The most realistic change would be a 2:82(as in SL55) This would not help in 0-60 really but we would probably see significant improvement in 1/4 mi times and trap speeds. In range of .3 secs and 3-4 mph. I've done some calcs. and improvement is based on being in the power band of 3rd gear thru end of 1/4 mi. Max HP (6100rpm) would be achieved at 119.5 mph with the top of third being 126 mph.(based on a 275/35/18 rear tire) Hence the 2:82 seems to be a perfect fit for results.
05-26-2004, 04:02 PM
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The car changes gears to fourth at 122mph with 285/30 tyres on 19" rims on the dyno.
Changing to the 2.83 to 1 rear ratio would reduce this to 114mph
Changing to the 2.83 to 1 rear ratio would reduce this to 114mph
05-26-2004, 10:41 PM
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Originally posted by stephens
Updated news.
Took the car to the dyno today, reflected the results seen on the G-tech Comp exactly!
Peak power increased by 20Kw, with an increase of 10kw starting from 2000rpm, based on the cooling system upgrade alone.
Peak power is between 5000 and 5700rpm, falling away by 20kw at 6000rpm and 60kw before changing gears into 4th at around 6400rpm.......
( I have a modelling program that enables this calculation courtesy of some German friends) the G-Tech comp suggests rwhp of 470hp and the dyno corrected to shoot out mode (this gives similar readings on a Dyno Dynamics to those on a Dynojet that you guys seem to use) is 470hp. I
Updated news.
Took the car to the dyno today, reflected the results seen on the G-tech Comp exactly!
Peak power increased by 20Kw, with an increase of 10kw starting from 2000rpm, based on the cooling system upgrade alone.
Peak power is between 5000 and 5700rpm, falling away by 20kw at 6000rpm and 60kw before changing gears into 4th at around 6400rpm.......
( I have a modelling program that enables this calculation courtesy of some German friends) the G-Tech comp suggests rwhp of 470hp and the dyno corrected to shoot out mode (this gives similar readings on a Dyno Dynamics to those on a Dynojet that you guys seem to use) is 470hp. I
I really, really appreciate the lengths to which you have gone with your "scientific method" for quantifying the gains derived from your various experimental modifications. Could you refresh my memory as to what the rear wheel horsepower (rwhp) was when your car was bone stock, as well as just prior to the installation of the low temperature cooler? Maybe my question isn't fair as I seem to recollect you using some other type of dyno early on which measured rwhp in some different way (i.e. I seem to remember your E55 bhp figures from that earlier dyno brand as being significantly lower than what's typically produced by E55s on Dynojets in the U.S.). If my suspicion is right, then maybe you could extrapolate what those earlier figures would've been on the dyno that you're currently employing.
05-26-2004, 11:00 PM
#21
I e-mailed Kleeman today and this is the news that I got on the LSD 2.82 gearing option. So what would be the net change on the 1/4 ...would the ET drop and MPH still go up? Would the 1/4 MPH actually suffer from not being in powerband?
==============================================
We can indeed change ratios on the W211 E55, however, at this point all we have available is a change from the 2.65:1 to a 2.82:1- Not a huge difference, but the gains will be noticeable.
The ratio change with the limited slip conversion is priced at $4,600.00, and you will need to send your transmission control unit to me for a re-program.
As far as I know, KLEEMANN doesn't have any plans to offer 4.11:1 gearing. That is a very aggressive change, and fuel mileage would suffer greatly, as well as top speed.
Unfortunately, I haven't received the dyno sheet from our local customers E55 with the headers and downpipes. I will contact him today and ask if he can fax the sheet to me.
As always, if you have any other questions, please don't hesitate!
Kind Regards,
Cory Umemoto
Technical Manager
KLEEMANN USA, Inc.
2845 Ore Mill Road
Suite 7
Colorado Springs, CO. 80904
Tel: 719.473.6441
Fax: 719.578.0345
==============================================
We can indeed change ratios on the W211 E55, however, at this point all we have available is a change from the 2.65:1 to a 2.82:1- Not a huge difference, but the gains will be noticeable.
The ratio change with the limited slip conversion is priced at $4,600.00, and you will need to send your transmission control unit to me for a re-program.
As far as I know, KLEEMANN doesn't have any plans to offer 4.11:1 gearing. That is a very aggressive change, and fuel mileage would suffer greatly, as well as top speed.
Unfortunately, I haven't received the dyno sheet from our local customers E55 with the headers and downpipes. I will contact him today and ask if he can fax the sheet to me.
As always, if you have any other questions, please don't hesitate!
Kind Regards,
Cory Umemoto
Technical Manager
KLEEMANN USA, Inc.
2845 Ore Mill Road
Suite 7
Colorado Springs, CO. 80904
Tel: 719.473.6441
Fax: 719.578.0345
05-26-2004, 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by Symbolic
stephens,
I really, really appreciate the lengths to which you have gone with your "scientific method" for quantifying the gains derived from your various experimental modifications. Could you refresh my memory as to what the rear wheel horsepower (rwhp) was when your car was bone stock, as well as just prior to the installation of the low temperature cooler? Maybe my question isn't fair as I seem to recollect you using some other type of dyno early on which measured rwhp in some different way (i.e. I seem to remember your E55 bhp figures from that earlier dyno brand as being significantly lower than what's typically produced by E55s on Dynojets in the U.S.). If my suspicion is right, then maybe you could extrapolate what those earlier figures would've been on the dyno that you're currently employing.
stephens,
I really, really appreciate the lengths to which you have gone with your "scientific method" for quantifying the gains derived from your various experimental modifications. Could you refresh my memory as to what the rear wheel horsepower (rwhp) was when your car was bone stock, as well as just prior to the installation of the low temperature cooler? Maybe my question isn't fair as I seem to recollect you using some other type of dyno early on which measured rwhp in some different way (i.e. I seem to remember your E55 bhp figures from that earlier dyno brand as being significantly lower than what's typically produced by E55s on Dynojets in the U.S.). If my suspicion is right, then maybe you could extrapolate what those earlier figures would've been on the dyno that you're currently employing.
Last edited by stephens; 05-27-2004 at 12:03 AM.
05-26-2004, 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by stephens
The car standard produced around 250kw at the wheels, 275kwwith chip only, 296kw with pulley, 330kw with pulley and cooling upgrade. On the same dyno it now produces 330kw at the wheels. With this dyno, using the new "'shoot out" mode software the figure is around 360kw. The difference between Dyno Dynamics and Dynojet, according to the Dyno Dynamics rep is betwen 10% and 17%.
The car standard produced around 250kw at the wheels, 275kwwith chip only, 296kw with pulley, 330kw with pulley and cooling upgrade. On the same dyno it now produces 330kw at the wheels. With this dyno, using the new "'shoot out" mode software the figure is around 360kw. The difference between Dyno Dynamics and Dynojet, according to the Dyno Dynamics rep is betwen 10% and 17%.
Could you explain the new "shoot out" software in simple terms, and the logic as to why this software has altered your rwhp figure from 330kW to 360kW?
The only thing that's a little hard to believe is that you're car made only 250kW when stock (this corresponds to only about 335 rwhp). This is about 85 rwhp less than the 420 rwhp that Vadim @ Evosport measured on the Dynojet. I suppose this somewhat dovetails with what the Dyno Dynamics rep stated (i.e. 335 rwhp is about 20% less than 420 rwhp....). Applying his logic, the 330kW/442rwhp on the Dyno Dynamics would be the equivalent of about 410kW/550 rwhp on a Dynojet!!!!!
Last edited by Symbolic; 05-27-2004 at 12:38 AM.
05-27-2004, 12:42 AM
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Symbolic, you are right to a point.
Initial Dynojet numbers for the E55 have been 360-390rwhp, with the SL's 390-410rwhp. I have dynographs from Renntech, Porsche Exchange and MB Autowerks reflecting this. Recently there have been a few new dynos from HKS, Kleemann and EvoSport with 420hp. I don't know if this is dyno technique or newer cars have a bit more power standard.
Initial Dynojet numbers for the E55 have been 360-390rwhp, with the SL's 390-410rwhp. I have dynographs from Renntech, Porsche Exchange and MB Autowerks reflecting this. Recently there have been a few new dynos from HKS, Kleemann and EvoSport with 420hp. I don't know if this is dyno technique or newer cars have a bit more power standard.
Last edited by stephens; 05-27-2004 at 12:45 AM.
05-27-2004, 02:11 AM
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Stephens:
There is definately something different between our cars in relation to rear end and tranny gearing. The stock gear(2.65) has the following rpm/mph characteristic for 3rd gear:
6100 rpm = 123 mph (with stock 265/18 tires)
6600 rpm = 133 mph(this is where tranny shifts to 4th)
Changing out to 2:82 Gear and 275/18 tires results in figures from my previous post. With your "larger" "19" tires, the rpm/mph relationship grows even larger.
265/35/18" = 824 Revs per mile (stock Conti's)
275/35/18" = 808-811 Revs per mile (most brands)
285/30/19" = 800 Revs per mile(most brands)
Based on these figures and stock gear, you should shift out of 3rd @ 137 MPH- not 122. Hence, there is something def. different between our cars. Maybe someone can help here???
There is definately something different between our cars in relation to rear end and tranny gearing. The stock gear(2.65) has the following rpm/mph characteristic for 3rd gear:
6100 rpm = 123 mph (with stock 265/18 tires)
6600 rpm = 133 mph(this is where tranny shifts to 4th)
Changing out to 2:82 Gear and 275/18 tires results in figures from my previous post. With your "larger" "19" tires, the rpm/mph relationship grows even larger.
265/35/18" = 824 Revs per mile (stock Conti's)
275/35/18" = 808-811 Revs per mile (most brands)
285/30/19" = 800 Revs per mile(most brands)
Based on these figures and stock gear, you should shift out of 3rd @ 137 MPH- not 122. Hence, there is something def. different between our cars. Maybe someone can help here???
