icat0963

Hello all, last year I bought an ‘09 E63 with 100k miles. Risky business I know, but it was in immaculate condition and had the head bolts replaced by the dealership right before I bought it. After finally getting a hold of the service record for the head bolts, I noticed that they did not do anything with the lifters, cam adjusters or camshafts. They couldn’t tell me if the tech found them to be in good condition or if the owner at the the time opted not to do the extra work. My question is, how often do these parts fail on these engines? What are the odds they were in good condition still? And if they fail, is it sudden or gradual? The engine runs smooth and has had no issues in the year I have owned it, at 119k miles now!

6172crew

You can remove the valve covers and inspect them yourself. The intake side (upper side closer to the middle of the engine) tend to go through the chrome lining and wear because the oil doesn't stick and there is no pool or cavity where oil can stay. Tasos explains it well in his youtube videos. He recommends using a thicker oil because of the area he lives which is very hot. I have swapped to a heavier oil myself.

Sam.P

Go take a look at Tasos on youtube, he has plenty of videos covering the common issues with the M156 and how to inspect it.

Good luck, hope for the best

HLG600

The head bolts are, by far, the greater risk item. Lifters can certainly fail but it is rare they do with zero indication.

Here's an example of a worst-case scenario: https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...rap-story.html

In your case, it's a toss up. The updated SLS lifters offer a considerable upgrade in both design and build so no one could fault you for upgrading as a preventive measure.

That said, if your engine is healthy after 19K+ miles post-job and is quiet on a cold start, then chances are your lifters are fine.

icat0963

If I open it up to look, do I need to replace the gaskets? They are only about 15K miles old, but I am concerned they will stick and be damaged.

tlambert

If I pulled them off. I would replace them. Why have to go back and do it again.

Yuille36

Lifters and Camshafts are a wear item, as in all DOHC engines, they are pretty durable, but can wear it. To say these wear out more quickly than others, is debatable. But frequent oil changes have helped to mitigate wear. I would change my oil every 5000 miles, if I had your mileage. I had my head bolts, lifters replaced out of caution last year, and I looked at every one, that came out to include the head bolts, lifters and cams. If my car is any indication, the lifters and cams showed very little signs of wear, but commensurate with a car of this mileage and age. But in hindsight, I wouldn’t have changed them, as a close inspection revealed that they were in great shape. I have a thread on here, that contains photos. It is favorable that your cams and lifters are in good shape, if you were to notice excessive noise then I would be concerned. You’ll get advance warning that something is wrong, as the noise will gradually build overtime. If your looking for some confidence, there are many E63 owners with 150,000 miles or more still using original head bolts, camshafts and lifters.

Rovel

In case it helps I made a How-To video for head bolt, camshaft, lifter replacement. You can also see how to open the valve covers to inspect them. My two cents is to change oil every 4K miles, add 1.5 bottles of Ceratec each time. That is what I do and my lifters, camshafts and adjusters are in immaculate state. I wouldn't worry for now until you hear ticking, rattling, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNf...lgaIj-V8xvX_g/

anomadtoo

remember Ceratec is not recommended on "every" oil change; but every 4th or 5th as it is made to last up to 25k miles.

Rovel

That’s not what their representative told me when I contacted them. I agree that their label is confusing as it says it lasts up to 30K. But what their rep told me was that it lasts up to that much in the same oil. So when you change oil most of Ceratec is gone with it. I don’t know if it can have any negative effect if added each time. But I will go with what their customer support told.

anomadtoo

interesting for sure. FCPeuro has a rep onsite and its also what they recommend; every 4-5th oil change.....and those oil changes in between use MoS2 additive.

cfmistry

Anyone else using Molygen? Per LM, if you use Molygen there is no need for adding Ceratec. Seems like the easy solution rather than remembering to add additives.

Rovel

Wow. Didn’t even know about it. I trust LM products and may switch to it from Motul Xcess. What I really liked is this “glows under UV light so leaks can be easily traced!” No more guess work for mechanics.

cfmistry

For what it's worth I've been using it for 5k miles and the engine sounds the same as when I was using Ceratec/M1 previously for 10k miles.

jpman

Is there any concise data that both ceratec and ms02 have improvements with this engine? Anyone done a comparison with chemistry results.

I’d love to see results that show this additive is as good or better than good old Mobil 1 0-40 or similar. I too was considering adding these additives, but I will send my oil for analysis before I take this more seriously.

cfmistry

I make absolutely no claims as to wear or tangible benefits, but the engine is unquestionable quieter on cold startup with Ceratec and/or Molygen.

Rovel

This guy takes tests seriously in his videos:
I don’t know where you live, but for most of us 0-40 is not the right oil. 5-40 is. It doesn’t get that cold in most of the US and such thin oil is not good. Thicker 5-40 sticks better to the surface and the car starts quiter in the morning. 5-40 is what’s been used in my car from day 1 along with Ceratec. My lifters and cams looked brand new (see my video above).

jpman

I live in Miami - and that is incorrect. 5w-40 is used at the dealer because of what is mostly available at the service/parts department. It has been discussed widely in other threads as well.

Also, all 6.3 (that were used at the private mag events) as well as the GT3 (current program) engines use European blend m1 0w-40.

To some people it does not work and they use 5w-40, to my car 0w-40 works beautifully without a single noise of lifters.

As a side note, 0w-40 will gets to locations quicker than 5w-40 will - this is where the majority of the damage of any engine would make sense in any start of an engine, how quickly oil can get to those locations when the car has been sitting.

jpman

I watched that video, I also understand your hearing is what you are using this to be measured. To me neither of those are scientific and also not really factual information, but mostly subjective.

Chemistry from an oil lab is the only way I (personally) would make that decision based off of - specially for a motor that was intended to NOT use additives.

Rovel

Oil conversations are a pandora box and I don't want to open it, LOL. Everybody is free to use whatever they want.

jpman

I won’t argue that, (hardly really arguing) - just stating facts. Using a lawn mower as a video to prove ceratec is hardly relatable to any engine that has further refinement techniques.

HLG600

Nothing against Project Farm, as I enjoy his content, but that Ceratec test means absolutely nothing with regard to how the product applies to these engines.

Regarding Ceratec not working after the oil is changed, that certainly is a conflicting statement to what LM stood by in the past: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...i-moly-ceratec

Think about it, who rates a product to work for 30K+ miles and recommends an oil change to go that far?

In any case, I tried Ceratec on a few vehicles and at this stage will likely not use it again. The M113K will be running on Liqui Moly Leichtlauf 5W-40 and the M156 on Motul X-cess 8100 5W-40, both supplemented with Liqui Moly MoS2.

Rovel

I use Motul 5-40 too and love it. What’s interesting is that you trust thus use other LM products but are skeptical about Ceratec?

anomadtoo

Speaking of Motul Xcess 8100; I’ve heard good things about it; what are your two real world experiences with it?

HLG600

To be fair, just because a company makes a stellar product doesn't mean everything under their brand compares. Take a look at Mobil 1 0W-40, for instance. Top-shelf product with mediocre oils below it.

That said, I think you're also misunderstanding my position. I am skeptical about Liqui Moly changing their tune on Ceratec not lasting beyond an oil change.

For years it was marketed as a treatment (vs. a routine additive) and the instructions on the bottle even call for a minimum usage of 3K miles for the treatment to take effect. This is also why I place very little stock in results from a short-term test on a lawn mower engine.

My personal reasoning for not wanting to use Ceratec moving forward is that it made little to no difference for me when testing it on 3 different engines. As with all things, YMMV.