i Love my new w212...honestly my opinion..i like the ride better..i also feel it handles better...but i could say it does sound way more beasty!!!

 

A perspective from a first-time AMG buyer.

I never had an amg before, although I test-drove several over the years and came to the conclusion that they were just overpowered barges (yes, e55, looking at you). I always dismissed those cars as the preserve of drivers who know only one thing: how to stomp on the throttle. Turning and stopping were out of the question.

When I started shopping around for the replacement of my Audi S6 recently, I started looking at Jaguar XFR. I liked the easy power and the exuberant playful handling. Not the grippiest thing on earth, but fun nonetheless. Then I read a review by Car magazine showing that the new AMG just murdered the jag on the track (3 sec faster).

Obviously, super-quick track-times do not make a great street car. Just look at the Panamera Turbo (although the AMG beat it too). Insanely fast, but a snooze in the twisties thanks to its AWD and lack of feel.

Still, I was intrigued and test-drove the new AMG: a revelation! Ample power, super-responsive transmission (great blips on downshift), N/A and very responsive engine with a great exhaust note. Even the steering is quite feelsome. But the chassis takes the cake. It's hard to believe that such a large car can flow and turn and grip and step-out its *** at will, and stay a sweetheart all the same. No bad habits, no evil reactions. It's a stunning car.

It's a perfect daily driver for an enthusiast. I also own a Scuderia, which I track extensively. There is pretty much no street car, which can stay with the scud on the track. But the AMG gives you some of the taste of the track in a safe and predictable manner on the street. There is no higher praise , indeed.

Some of the demerits, I do agree on: the interior is not special enough for a 100k car, and I am not enamored of the huge ***. Yet, once you get inside and start to play all those things disappear.

Great Job, AMG. I did not know you had it in you. Just crank up the revs to 9k and stay away from FI and you will have this customer for life.

P.S. If you are looking for some objective measures of the handling prowess of the car, compare the previous editions of AMG to the current one at Hockenheimring:

http://fastestlaps.com/track7.html

212: 1:14:00
211: 1:17:40
e55: 1:18:00
some more times:
M5: 1:16:06
Panamera Turbo: 1:13:70

In case you wonder what 3-4 sec difference means on the track, it spells just one word: ANNIHILATION.

 

For me, all of that pretty much helped invalidate just about all of the rest of your comments. I'm sorry. It's just way too much rhetoric. We're not kids here.

Nonetheless, enjoy your new DD.

 

220S, I completely disagree. I dont get your comments at all. Instead of mere rhetoric, Krzysiek has offered not only his first hand experience in driving these cars, but actual track results. He offered a comparison of the E63 to a benchmark car he owns, the Scuderia. I loved the link to the Hockenheimring results. It was a great write up, listing both the things he loved and didn't love about the car...Thanks Krzysiek! I know another Ferrari owner who just bought the 2010 E63 and loves it, for similar reasons.

People can disagree on many things, but they can not disagree on facts. The fact is the new car handles much better and is faster around a track than the old car. Facts ain't rhetoric.

 

I would tend to disagree with your sentiment.
Since most of us do not actually know one another, it was an effort to give us some background on himself so that his opinion may have more weight than, say, an 18 year old who drives a Corolla.
As a generalization, I would also agree with his comment about the Scud...

 

Well, I just disagree, I guess. Maybe it came off to me as simply grandstanding and not really talking about the E63 specifically.
It's not about the E63 that bothered me, or any of the "facts." I'm not debating the E63 here. It's the way it was all said. A lot of it sounded more like a copy writer at MBUSA.

But my sincere apologies to him if that's not what he was intentionally doing.

That no other street car can touch a "Scud" on the track is simply not true. Plus tracking a 430 is pretty risky due to the inevitable track rash and costs. Constant brake fluid and oil changes, brakes, tires. All outrageously expensive esp on a Ferrari; no owners that I personally know actively track them. And insurance doesn't cover anything. Unless the poster is sponsored. But it doesn't sound like it. If so, let him tell us about it (I honestly would like to hear the specifics.)

And who is he telling us about track times and "annihilation?" Sounds a bit juvenile, imho.

Anyway, it sounded more to me just a lot of rhetoric about cars in general with some cut and past info. Like what he said about the Panamera and AWD. It's only the Turbo that has AWD. And the 997TT is AWD. They do not "snooze" in the twisties. And what does that really mean anyway? Snooze? The E63 has major understeer, btw. It tends to be nose heavy and weight shifts are very pronounced.

Same with "the E63 gives you a taste of the track as a street car. No, it doesn't. Being on the track is entirely different, trust me. The street and track and no bearing to each other. e.g., any car on the track is a world apart in difference. It's all just rhetoric, sorry.

That's all. Now if the poster would introduce himself (it was his very first post to MBWorld) and post some pics, let's start over. And be specific

 

Someone in our auto club brings his Scud to every track day...It is a track ready car after all, that's why they built it...the real shame would be to own a Scud and never take it to a track

 

Fair enough. The challenge accepted:
First, let's dispose with the insinuation that I don't know what I am talking about.
Here are two videos:
Me, the scud and Lime Rock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsLjIDS1DL8
Here's some action at PBIR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMAYN_-XMmk

If you need more, I am happy to oblige.

As to scud's capability on the track, you are free to argue which street cars will have the measure of it on the track: zr-1? gt-r? gt2?
Or are you talking about superexotics?

You are right, tracking ferraris (and specifically the scud) is both risky and expensive. And yes, majority of ferrari owners are posers, who would not want their precious cargo on the track. I half-understand their motivation: a pair of front pads (gone after two track days) will run you $1800. All fluid change: $1,600. Front rotors with pads (ask me how I know): $18k. And on top of that, wiping out on the track will get extremely expensive quicker than you can crash. However, if you cannot afford to play with your toys, buy cheaper ones. If you cannot walk away from the money flushed down the toilet, don't buy ferraris.

I truly do not understand people, who buy those cars and then never experience them at full bore on the track. There is simply nothing better (ok, maybe a Zonda would change my mind). The insane wail of the engine, the rifle-shot to the back at full-speed upshifts, the incredible speeds you can carry into and through turns: in a word, the whole package is unbeatable.

The only small downside is that all this potential is just wasted on the street. I don't drive it on the street at all anymore. Just to and back from the track.

Hence my desire for a car to give you some taste of that feeling, but more approachable in a practical guise of a daily driver.

I had a Porsche 4cs. Nice, but doesn't sound half as good and I cannot fit my kids in the back anymore. I had Audi S6. Practical, powerful and grippy to a fault. Exactly the point: to a fault. Boring. You clearly do not understand what a snooze powerful AWD cars are in the twisties. Get yourself Panamera Turbo, you will understand.

And no, 2010 does not have any major understeer. I did not take to the track (yet), so I don't know how it will behave at the limit, but when you push it on the street, it does not show any understeer. It's almost startling how the front-end grips. I am not sure how you can judge those things, given that you own the old car, which is very different. Maybe 211 understeers a lot, 2010 does not. It's not nose-heavy at all. The car hides the weight very well, but not the way AWD cars do. It feels agile and playful. it will oversteer pleasantly on demand but it will not snap on you like your 997TT will.

Finally, please spare me lectures about how cars behave on the track and how they compare to street cars. I am telling you that the e63 amg gives you a taste of ferrari track experience, and I know what I am talking about. I have extensive experience to back it up.

Your turn.

 

Well said. Lets see how sincere your well-deserved apology is from 220S.

 

As I had already said, "My sincere apologies to him if that's not what he was intentionally doing." Overall, I'm a pretty humble person.

fwiw, I have driven a Panamera Turbo. I'm a long time PCA member and went to a special invite. Cones were set up etc.. I don't feel it's a snoozer for a 4 door sedan, sorry. My opinion. I've driven AWD in various guises in various venues. But maybe I "clearly don't understand." Could be, I suppose. Do I prefer RWD? Yes. Is AWD a "snooze in the twisties?" Sorry, but no.

And yes, I did take the W212 on the track. At the special AMG invite at El Toro Airfield (they set up a track for us.) It understeered. The car's weight shifted pretty noticeably. And the car on the street does not give me the feel of a car that I'd really want to dedicate to the track. Plus I just don't like heavy cars for that purpose. I don't find it that fun (as lighter cars.)

The Scuderia is not the ultimate track car, imho. And no I'm not talking about expensive super exotics. Sorry, again my opinion. And I sincerely just thought it was a bit misleading of you to say it is and that no other street car can touch it. But again, we may simply agree to disagree. Part of my own issue is that it's really too expensive to track as a dedicated track car. Not that I don't have the money, but simply that I wouldn't want to spend it personally. As I mentioned, people I know that own them have driven them on the track, but not actively (i.e., as a dedicated car; removing weight, etc..) There are other cars just as fun that don't eat you alive (think clutch replacement, etc..) I'd rather spend my money on my houses, travel, etc.. Just a personal preference.

Life is not a pissing match. I'm glad to hear you're not a "poser" and have the funds to use your car as it should be used. But let me also remind you that you don't know me either. You have no idea who I am, my experience, nor what I do for a living.

So you are now spared any of my "lectures." And I will listen to yours. But yes, the easiest way to get someone else to shut up and hopefully feel inferior is to tell them they know nothing. No reason for that, imho. But to disagree is fine.

That all said, I'll be the first to say I'm sorry. But loud language doesn't ever work for me. Arrogance is the deepest form of insecurity. And I simply read it that way. Too rhetorical and not saying much that we don't already know. But okay, my mistake.

Again, if I'm wrong to have read it that way, then I'm simply wrong. My ego is strong enough to admit it. Therefore, once again, I apologize for voicing my opinion if it contradicted your own voice.

[edit]: p.s., for the record I really like the W212 E63. Although I do not like the styling. And I'm disappointed that Daimler decided to remove a lot of what was once standard (and now are options.) I had hoped for a much, much better car. So, it's disappointment and not dislike. Those are two different things.

 

Well, I am pretty insecure, so arrogance works well for me.
All kidding aside, you made comments about tracking/street cars, etc., which you did not have a good basis for making.

Let's clear some points here first:
I did not say that the scud is the ultimate track car. It will not beat dedicated track toys like radicals and the like. However, among street cars, it's pretty much unbeatable on the track. Not only for its raw performance, but for how it feels doing it. Actually, with a change in alignment and better tires, the scud will run with dedicated track toys (like challenge cars). Yet, it can be driven in (relative) comfort on the street. It's not harsh like the Porsche's gt cars.
Obviously, you can get track thrills for a third of the price in Porsches and Audi's and such. I tracked my c4s extensively and often back to back with the Ferrari. It was fun and I like Porsche's dedication to manuals. Yet, the experience does not compare. That's why I blow all this money on tracking the scud. Nothing else compares.

Back to amg: it's clearly not a track car, but it's hugely capable all the same. I am very surprised at your comments about w212 understeer. Obviously, all street cars will understeer at the limit (they are set up like that for safety, even the scud), however, my impressions of the w212 are that it tenaciously resists understeer. I did not track it yet (but i will, i track everything), but i did take it to nearby parking lot, turned off all the nannies and pushed the car on this improvised skid-pad (thank god it's so cold here: grip is pretty low). It's startling how consistently this car refuses to understeer: it either grips all around or the back will gently drift out before it gives up the front end grip. I am as surprised as anybody that a big/heavy mercedes can do such a thing. The wider front end and the steel front suspension really make a difference here. The car has the agility of a much lighter/smaller car. This is the big difference between cars like the amg and the powerful/heavy awd cars like panamera turbo (or my Audi s6). They will go fast through the corners, too, but it's all about grip. No agility, playfulness, no fun. If you find it the awd experience satisfying, going ever faster till the terminal understeer sets in, good for you, but i don't share the sentiment in the least. I can't see how this can be fun. I would even take the jag xfr over panamera turbo.

If you track cars, you should also appreciate the differences in lap times at Hockenheimring. To gain 4 sec on the previous generation car is a pretty stunning development, considering that the power upgrade is only minor. Notice that the switch from e55 to w211 gained only .5 sec. The e63 amg is now a proper driver's car. It was never so before. It's a great advance for AMG. If you like driving, it's a much better car.

 

As I said, we can agree to disagree. That's all fine. But please don't imply that what I have to say, nor my opinion, is invalid because I have no basis for making them or "if I like driving" that I should agree with you. You have no idea who I am nor any of my background. (Who knows, you may even have known my father (now deceased) and his brother. I see you're from Darien. We lived in New Canaan. My uncle was (retired now) a producer and worked and raced with a well-known celebrity driver who lived in nearby Westport, along with a Datsun dealership owner there. Both he and my Dad had SCCA licenses. I grew up around their hobbies. Lime Rock is just up the road.)

Aside from that, if I say the Panamera is no snoozer, and you do, it simply means that you don't personally like its chassis. And, for a 4-door sedan, I feel differently. It's not that I don't know any better and that you do. Or vice versa.

I would not call it a snoozer. Am I promoting it? No, of course not. Would I prefer it over the W212. No. I much prefer RWD. But as I said it is no snoozer, despite AWD. Just like your AWD C4S. Maybe I look at things differently; again this is not a pissing match but simply a different philosophy.

Point being is that people track a variety of different cars. If one car was perfect then there would be only one car in existence. The Scud is a fantastic car but it's not the world's greatest and it's not unbeatable (talking production cars, not Radicals, etc..) People choose for a variety of reasons and not one car is ever a universal winner. That's why the Scud is the greatest track experience, for you. And, of course, we all understand car prep and driving ability and luck fills in the rest of the equation.

I've already said sorry if I read you wrong. But that doesn't necessarily mean your opinion is supreme and nor is your knowledge or experience. Mine certainly isn't, I'll be the first to admit that. But it is valid. And whether you feel I have no basis in saying anything, then that's your choice. (e.g., you really don't need to explain why understeer is built into cars, we all know that.) You are then doing exactly the same thing that I have admitted fault to in my original post.

We can have differing opinions without the denigration of each other's credibility. Again, this is no pissing match. It's about differing opinions. I trust we can talk cars without the rhetoric and grandstanding.

Cheers.

 

Sorry, but I can't agree to disagree.
We might like different styles of cars, handling models, track experiences and all that jazz, but it's not a matter of opinion that w212 is a better driver's car than the previous amgs. We can disagree on the feel of the car (although how anyone can miss its striking agility is beyond me), but 4 sec difference on a relatively tight and short track like Hockenheimring is a difference of class. It simply means those cars are not even comparable in terms of handling. There are variety of reviews from different sources commenting on the change (EVO, CAR, Motortrend, Car And Driver). You might not believe any of them and rely on your own impression. However, if you cannot see a 4 sec difference in the chassis/transmission (since it's clearly not power), you are simply wrong.

I am not dismissing awd as such, the light porsches (like my c4s) or the evos/r8's work very well as track/twisties cars and are plenty entertaining. However, the heavy awds typically have to rely on surfeit of grip for their performance, which dials agility nicely out. Again, this might be what you ask out of 4-doors: unerring grip, no matter what. I find it terminally boring (after 3 years with S6), but to each its own.

Finally, track cars: it's true that other cars can often different kind of fun. I liked my p-car for its manual thrills, but compared to the scud it felt very heavy. It's not just the weight (although the scud is lighter by 300-400 lbs), but obviously the mid-engine versus rear-engine thing. A miata cup car can be a lot of fun, too. However, once you put the total package together (engine, sound, transmission, agility, grip, handling, performance), i see no production street car that can match the scud.

I know it's an amg board, so I don't want to bore the others with interminable exchanges about ferraris, however, you will have to take me at my word (since so very few people exercise ferraris on the track):
The new e63 gives you some taste of the experience.

 

Good post. Would love to know myself which DD-suitable production street car is quicker and better connected at the track than the Scuderia. The 997 GT3 RS mkII is the only true competitor I can think of, but it sure won't shift as fast.

I also agree that AMG made a long-overdue step forward with the W212. The W211 was a nice car overall but let down by a lack of steering feel and control.

Coming from owning a 996TT and Audi S4, the one thing I will say is the driving experience of the S6 is never going to give one a positive opinion of AWD. Nose heavy and clunky suspension, much like the B6/7 S4. The B7 RS4, on the other hand, is an AWD sedan I have genuine fun driving. Far more resistant to understeer than the S6, far more compliant suspension and an engine that puts the hugely detuned 5.2 to shame.

 

No problem. People should be committed to they own opinions and world views. And opinions will differ. Ideas and philosophies differ. Difference is what allows for progress in any field, including automobile engineering. Without it we'd be nowhere.

The difference between the W211 and W212 was not what I was talking about.

Note my earlier post: It's not about the E63 that bothered me, or any of the "facts." I'm not debating the E63 here.

If you read carefully you should comprehend what I'm actually saying in my posts.

Let's just leave it at that and let it go.

 

I never drove RS4, but heard great things about the car from some friends. Too small for my kids, though. It was also not that super heavy for a 4-door. I think 3800 lbs or so. Hard to believe, but R8 5.2 weighs almost as much.

I had B7/S4 before S6 and I felt that S6 was definitely an improvement over s4 (rear-biased awd in S6 versus 50-50 in my S4). Still, after a couple of months it quickly got boring too. I have had e63 for two months, and it's been pure driving joy (for a big sedan that is).

 

Krzysiek,
Interested in your opinion of the Scuderia compared to the Challenge Stradale.
Sorry for taking it OT...

 

Well, I have no direct experience with CS. I never drove one. A friend of mine owns one and he complained about the brutal ride and slow shifting and much lower power (most likely just the torque) compared to the scud. Also, CS can be pretty evil at the limit. When it goes, it goes. I have him on video stuffed in a wall, after less than advisable sudden lift.

I can compare it to the regular f430, which I used to own: night and day. It's hard to believe those cars are related. The scud feels much lighter and way more agile and is plain way faster (which is pretty surprising if you just look at the spec sheet). And obviously the shifting, both CS and f430 shift at 150ms, while the scud does it 3 times faster and it really feels it.

Keep in mind, though that CS is quite a bit lighter than f430 and around 100lbs lighter than the scud. On the track: light makes right

My friend's opinion overall: the scud is in a different league.

 

Thanks...

 

You were offered $10,000 off MSRP on a 2010 E63? That is a great deal! Do you mind giving me the name of your MB dealership? Thanks

 

Any answer to this, 220S? You're clearly vehement on the subject.

Maybe the new M3 GTR? (Euro only)

On topic, with a $10k discount I'd have taken the W212 if were after an E-AMG. But when faced with MSRP vs a $30k discount for an untitled W211, I'd take the W211.

 

I got 7k off at MB Manhattan on my car (5k off MSRP plus 2k extra on the trade-in), back in early Dec. However, my car was pretty rare option combo: performance package with no distronic.

 

Hey man sorry for the OT but who did you deal with at Manhattan MB?...I got close to nothing off on the 2010 and next to nothing on the 2007 trade in. It looks like my sales guy screwed me big time. Getting friendly with a sales guy is like having a friend in the diamond business it's a sure sell and they know it.

JD

 

And if the GT3 RS might not shift as quickly it still doesn't mean it can't beat a Scud on the track. We all know that there are so many variables going on; car prep, driver skills (on any given day), etc.. On paper the data at any given test is one thing, but those figures can and do change. We know the world isn't everything on paper. And are we actually talking about wheel to wheel in sanctioned racing or running the car around the track on the weekends???

I'm sorry, but when somebody says, "however, once you put the total package together (engine, sound, transmission, agility, grip, handling, performance), I see no production street car that can match the Scud," that to me is subjective and rhetorical. It's a generic description. And what does the sound have to do with it other than someone's subjective opinion about what they like to personally hear?

Maybe I just come from a different school, but I would never say a XYZ production car is unbeatable. I might say my prepped XYZ car is unbeatable with me behind the wheel racing in the same class. Or, XYZ car is my favorite car as a dedicated track car because I personally feel it's highly competitive in its class, and not easy to beat, etc..

I think the Scuderia is a fantastic car to own. But I also feel there are other choices because there is always some subjectivity involved; nothing can be purely objective. There are other things we look for and that's also based on our perception of what we desire. As I've already said, I personally don't think it's the ultimate choice because of the cost. I'd take it to the track with a VBox or something and have fun, but I'd rather choose something else to really dedicate as a "track only" car. For example, a GT3 Cup car would work better for me (SCCA GTC; the Ferrari is in STC, iirc.) And I'd jump through all the hoops, spend the money, get my license and go for it. But that doesn't mean it's the choice for anybody else.

Anyway, I don't want to get involved in this anymore. Let's just say I look at things differently.

On topic, I got a 27k discount on the W211 last May. It's really the main reason I picked one up. I needed a DD and I didn't want to spend a lot because I knew the W212 E63 was here and also the F10 M5 was coming. So, this would would keep me until I could see where the W212 will be going (and now we hear about the new twin turbos) and also see what happens with the M5. I didn't even lease my W211, I just bought the damn thing. I'll just keep it in the garage or give it to a family member or something later on.

I have no qualms about the W212's performance. Although I do still feel there is some roll-induced understeer. Not as bad as the W211, but it's still there. I don't think the W212 would be "close to driving a Scud on the track," that's being rhetorical, imho. What does that really mean anyway?

I think the W212 is a good improvement and I'm happy Daimler/AMG went that direction. But I'm still waiting. I've expressed my disappointment concerning the design (subjective) and also the lack of what was standard equipment just last year. They basically raised the price by eliminating certain things (another name for cost cutting.)

 

Hilarious! I can tell you really don't want to talk about it anymore.
Ok, I will help you out to see the light.

Yes, variables change, but we are comparing cars not prep/drivers. A professional driver will kill me on the track in a Boxster. That does not change the fact that the scud is a superior machine. In a "fair" fight, even the new 2010 GT3 has little chance against the scud. On some specific track, which really flatters its gearing, etc. it might just beat it, but in a vast majority of situation the scud will be better. Not on paper, but in real-world track tests. Go to fastestlaps.com and peruse the various test lap times. Yes, conditions change, the tires are different (the original P-zeros on the scud are pretty crappy actually), but the overall picture is very clear. You just fail to see it.

Yes, some of the descriptions I gave were about the feel and not the numbers on the car. The feel is very important in driving pleasure. That does not mean that those thing are just subjective and every single person has different impressions about the subject. Agility might be hard to measure precisely, but it is easy to distinguish for anybody with a modicum of tracking experience. Sound preferences might vary, but I know of no single person (including devoted Porsche enthusiast) who prefer the flatulence of 997 Turbo to the flat-crank howl of a ferrari (not just scud, any ferrari). Not that the scud has neccessarilly the best sound ever. Some lambos sound great too. However, when you put everything together (sound, agility, raw performance, shifting, etc.) nothing else compares.

Nice of you to change the subject, but GT3 Cup car is not street-legal. It does not enter the discussion. We are not talking about your preferences for dedicated track car, but about current production street cars on the track. Try and name a car that will compete with the scud on raw performance and/or feel.

I never said that w212 is close to driving the scud on the track. I said it gave you a taste of the experience. Me and my fiancee (she also tracks the cars) still giggle like idiots when we brake hard into a corner and hear the transmission step down a couple of cogs and the engine howl trying to match the revs. We both know what it reminds us of.

Sorry to pull rank on you here, but I am not surprised you don't understand what I am talking about here. You wouldn't have any idea. To me, it sounds like you have little track experience and you don't understand what ferraris are like on the track. The fact that you do not to see significant difference in handling between w211 and w212, only strengthens my conclusion. I am sorry, but it's very hard to miss 4 sec-worth of handling improvement. That is a difference in class.

The w212 is a great achievement for AMG. As I explained before, handling, transmission and steering feel are best in class right now. I am very happy, AMG decided to stick to N/A and went for the driving experience. Maybe, they can point BMW M division back to the light. It's amazing how the roles flipped. I dread the coming of the Turbo era in high performance.