Another new guy
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E63
Another new guy
Hello all, thought I'd make an introduction since I have popped my posting cherry a short while ago (been lurking since July). Excuse the lack of nice/professional pics, but it is something I hope to remedy soon. She's in the shop right now anyway, although I can snap some pics of my loaner C300 if you'd like
The Car: 2010 Obsidian with 19" forged wheels, pano roof, cf interior, sport steering wheel and a few other options (none appearance or performance though). I wanted Steel Gray, was ready to buy, but the dealer sold it from under me. One of the worst buying experiences. They "made it up to [me]" by cutting me a deal on this one and a fist-fight literally almost broke out towards the end given the gamesmanship.
Me: Hope there's not too much resentment, but I am still an Audi guy. I have owned 4 and still own 2 avants, including a Stage 3 B5. That said, I'm an enthusiast at the core and respect/appreciate other mfrs and am thoroughly enjoying my Merc and look forward to "growing" here.
Thoughts on the Car: Coming from a commuter car and a heavily modified car, I REALLY LIKE the NEW car. I've thought about wheels and a drop, etc., but I think I want to hold off and just enjoy a stock car or a while (excluding the charcoal filter removal which I plan to do). Of course, that's made easier when she has 500+hp and is performance oriented. Only complaints are the rough shifts in the lower gears, few random electrical things here and there (e.g., when I get to the street entry part of an address, "yes" does not register and I get kicked out of the address entry), it sounds like a fan comes on at certain times that drowns out the sound of the engine, and the black gets dirty fast...
The Car: 2010 Obsidian with 19" forged wheels, pano roof, cf interior, sport steering wheel and a few other options (none appearance or performance though). I wanted Steel Gray, was ready to buy, but the dealer sold it from under me. One of the worst buying experiences. They "made it up to [me]" by cutting me a deal on this one and a fist-fight literally almost broke out towards the end given the gamesmanship.
Me: Hope there's not too much resentment, but I am still an Audi guy. I have owned 4 and still own 2 avants, including a Stage 3 B5. That said, I'm an enthusiast at the core and respect/appreciate other mfrs and am thoroughly enjoying my Merc and look forward to "growing" here.
Thoughts on the Car: Coming from a commuter car and a heavily modified car, I REALLY LIKE the NEW car. I've thought about wheels and a drop, etc., but I think I want to hold off and just enjoy a stock car or a while (excluding the charcoal filter removal which I plan to do). Of course, that's made easier when she has 500+hp and is performance oriented. Only complaints are the rough shifts in the lower gears, few random electrical things here and there (e.g., when I get to the street entry part of an address, "yes" does not register and I get kicked out of the address entry), it sounds like a fan comes on at certain times that drowns out the sound of the engine, and the black gets dirty fast...
Last edited by twinsnails; Oct 16, 2010 at 03:20 AM. Reason: typo
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 237
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From: Scottsdale, AZ
2014 E63S
Congrats...Nothing (well almost) looks better than a clean black AMG> Keeping it that way is a full time passion. If you still have grey on your mind, there is a grey matte wrap you may want to consider.
Enjoy the new ride and way to hang tough in the negotiations.
Enjoy the new ride and way to hang tough in the negotiations.
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E63
As for the negotiations, the funny thing was that I wasn't the one threatening to fight...the sales manager was the one that stood up and got into my face before he was pushed away by someone else. Part of me wished he swung so I could be posting in the SLS owners' section
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 237
Likes: 1
From: Scottsdale, AZ
2014 E63S
Thanks for the heads up. One of the cars that was offered to me in the dealer's conciliatory efforts was a Designo matte gray that looked really nice, but it had the lighter interior and wood trim...didn't get why a special color on the outside and nothing different on the inside. I passed. I'll look into the wrap.
As for the negotiations, the funny thing was that I wasn't the one threatening to fight...the sales manager was the one that stood up and got into my face before he was pushed away by someone else. Part of me wished he swung so I could be posting in the SLS owners' section
As for the negotiations, the funny thing was that I wasn't the one threatening to fight...the sales manager was the one that stood up and got into my face before he was pushed away by someone else. Part of me wished he swung so I could be posting in the SLS owners' section
Unacceptable.
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E63
The Republic of California. Yeah, the entire ordeal was just shocking. I should add that they also lost one of my keys when I picked up the car (it has been months of promises and still hasn't been sent) AND no Saks 5 Ave gift card yet!
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E63
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: So Cal
2018 E63S Wagon
Great looking 212, welcome to the forum.
I gotta ask, WTF did you say to cause this near-brawl? Please elaborate, it sounds like a great story.
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From: NYC
W212 E63
The AMG booklet and the saks cards comes from MBUSA so you should get yours sooner or later.
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E63
30k Feet
Dealer acted very untrustworthy. Sold my Steel Gray to someone else. Offered more expensive car to make up for it. Agreed and went to pick up more expensive car for same price as less expensive car. Sales manager tried bait and switch. I called out the sales manager in front of another manager and told him to STFU because he is lying. Later, told him to STFU and sit down, which prompted him to get in my face (and say "don't tell me to sit") before he was ushered out quickly.
1k Feet
Dealer and I negotiated on a Steel Gray for over 2 weeks. As I am driving up to pick up the car (in Friday, LA traffic), I get called and told they need more paperwork from my company (car bought through my company). I was VERY agitated given this was the first time this was bought up AND they still wanted me to pay the purchase price so they could "hold the car" pending more paperwork. I refused to pay for a car I did not take possession of and I expressed my strong feelings on the same--I assumed they were dealing with someone else who was willing to pay more and this was all pretext. The dealer refused to hold the car, so I told the dealer to pound sand and I started looking elsewhere.
A week later, I get a call saying they could offer me a better deal and would throw in extra stuff, like maintenance, for the misunderstanding. The carrot was sweet enough and I had not found any other Steel Gray with the desired options, so I started to make my way to the dealer when I received a call saying the car was "just sold unknowingly by some other sales person." To say I was infuriated would be a gross understatement.
A day later, as conciliation, the dealer said they'd offer me a more expensive car (i.e., better options) for the same price. I told them to speak to my partner because I couldn't deal with them. However, I chose the car based on spec sheets they sent me. I also sat in my partner's office as he confirmed the major deal points, i.e., more expensive car, same price.
I drove down with my partner. They sit us in a room to "go over the numbers." At this point, I looked at my partner and correctly predicted they were going to change up the deal. Sure enough, the sales manager I had a testy exchange with previously came in and tried to say the deal was different because the car cost more. As I started to respond, he turned to me and said "you told me you don't want to deal with me, and you weren't on the call, so I'm dealing with your partner." I smiled, stood up and simply said the games better stop or we're leaving. I then left for air to calm down.
As I was pacing outside, a dealer manager asked me if everything was ok. I explained to him how they were about to blow up a deal with me for the third time essentially. He asked me to go back inside to figure it out. We entered the room and he asked the sales manager what was happening. The sales manager started lying again and I interrupted with "you see, there he goes again." He repeated his comment about how I should not talk to him, and that was all I could take. I told him to STFU and explained how I was in the room with my partner, heard everything, confirmed it with the sales rep in a subsequent call, and ONLY came to the dealer because it was a better deal. The sales guy stood up and tried to interrupt me, and I again told him to STFU and added "sit the f*ck down." At that point, he walked over to me and got in my face (more like my chin really as he was short) and said "don't tell me to sit down", but the other manager quickly pushed him outside and told us to just wait.
The dealer manager returned, apologized and we got the deal that was agreed upon (absent my second key). I was told by the rep that handles the registration and upgrades, etc., that this particular sales manager was new and he wasn't surprised as he had seen some pretty shady tactics while he's been there. That is my story and I still get hot under the collar thinking about it. I know cursing was not professional, but the blatant bait and switch was just too much too handle, especially in light of the history.
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E63
Out Of Control!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 21,014
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From: CA, NV, CO
It's a long story because of all the background, and I fear the extent of the frustration won't come through, but here's a 30k foot level version, and the 1k foot level version:
30k Feet
Dealer acted very untrustworthy. Sold my Steel Gray to someone else. Offered more expensive car to make up for it. Agreed and went to pick up more expensive car for same price as less expensive car. Sales manager tried bait and switch. I called out the sales manager in front of another manager and told him to STFU because he is lying. Later, told him to STFU and sit down, which prompted him to get in my face (and say "don't tell me to sit") before he was ushered out quickly.
1k Feet
Dealer and I negotiated on a Steel Gray for over 2 weeks. As I am driving up to pick up the car (in Friday, LA traffic), I get called and told they need more paperwork from my company (car bought through my company). I was VERY agitated given this was the first time this was bought up AND they still wanted me to pay the purchase price so they could "hold the car" pending more paperwork. I refused to pay for a car I did not take possession of and I expressed my strong feelings on the same--I assumed they were dealing with someone else who was willing to pay more and this was all pretext. The dealer refused to hold the car, so I told the dealer to pound sand and I started looking elsewhere.
A week later, I get a call saying they could offer me a better deal and would throw in extra stuff, like maintenance, for the misunderstanding. The carrot was sweet enough and I had not found any other Steel Gray with the desired options, so I started to make my way to the dealer when I received a call saying the car was "just sold unknowingly by some other sales person." To say I was infuriated would be a gross understatement.
A day later, as conciliation, the dealer said they'd offer me a more expensive car (i.e., better options) for the same price. I told them to speak to my partner because I couldn't deal with them. However, I chose the car based on spec sheets they sent me. I also sat in my partner's office as he confirmed the major deal points, i.e., more expensive car, same price.
I drove down with my partner. They sit us in a room to "go over the numbers." At this point, I looked at my partner and correctly predicted they were going to change up the deal. Sure enough, the sales manager I had a testy exchange with previously came in and tried to say the deal was different because the car cost more. As I started to respond, he turned to me and said "you told me you don't want to deal with me, and you weren't on the call, so I'm dealing with your partner." I smiled, stood up and simply said the games better stop or we're leaving. I then left for air to calm down.
As I was pacing outside, a dealer manager asked me if everything was ok. I explained to him how they were about to blow up a deal with me for the third time essentially. He asked me to go back inside to figure it out. We entered the room and he asked the sales manager what was happening. The sales manager started lying again and I interrupted with "you see, there he goes again." He repeated his comment about how I should not talk to him, and that was all I could take. I told him to STFU and explained how I was in the room with my partner, heard everything, confirmed it with the sales rep in a subsequent call, and ONLY came to the dealer because it was a better deal. The sales guy stood up and tried to interrupt me, and I again told him to STFU and added "sit the f*ck down." At that point, he walked over to me and got in my face (more like my chin really as he was short) and said "don't tell me to sit down", but the other manager quickly pushed him outside and told us to just wait.
The dealer manager returned, apologized and we got the deal that was agreed upon (absent my second key). I was told by the rep that handles the registration and upgrades, etc., that this particular sales manager was new and he wasn't surprised as he had seen some pretty shady tactics while he's been there. That is my story and I still get hot under the collar thinking about it. I know cursing was not professional, but the blatant bait and switch was just too much too handle, especially in light of the history.
30k Feet
Dealer acted very untrustworthy. Sold my Steel Gray to someone else. Offered more expensive car to make up for it. Agreed and went to pick up more expensive car for same price as less expensive car. Sales manager tried bait and switch. I called out the sales manager in front of another manager and told him to STFU because he is lying. Later, told him to STFU and sit down, which prompted him to get in my face (and say "don't tell me to sit") before he was ushered out quickly.
1k Feet
Dealer and I negotiated on a Steel Gray for over 2 weeks. As I am driving up to pick up the car (in Friday, LA traffic), I get called and told they need more paperwork from my company (car bought through my company). I was VERY agitated given this was the first time this was bought up AND they still wanted me to pay the purchase price so they could "hold the car" pending more paperwork. I refused to pay for a car I did not take possession of and I expressed my strong feelings on the same--I assumed they were dealing with someone else who was willing to pay more and this was all pretext. The dealer refused to hold the car, so I told the dealer to pound sand and I started looking elsewhere.
A week later, I get a call saying they could offer me a better deal and would throw in extra stuff, like maintenance, for the misunderstanding. The carrot was sweet enough and I had not found any other Steel Gray with the desired options, so I started to make my way to the dealer when I received a call saying the car was "just sold unknowingly by some other sales person." To say I was infuriated would be a gross understatement.
A day later, as conciliation, the dealer said they'd offer me a more expensive car (i.e., better options) for the same price. I told them to speak to my partner because I couldn't deal with them. However, I chose the car based on spec sheets they sent me. I also sat in my partner's office as he confirmed the major deal points, i.e., more expensive car, same price.
I drove down with my partner. They sit us in a room to "go over the numbers." At this point, I looked at my partner and correctly predicted they were going to change up the deal. Sure enough, the sales manager I had a testy exchange with previously came in and tried to say the deal was different because the car cost more. As I started to respond, he turned to me and said "you told me you don't want to deal with me, and you weren't on the call, so I'm dealing with your partner." I smiled, stood up and simply said the games better stop or we're leaving. I then left for air to calm down.
As I was pacing outside, a dealer manager asked me if everything was ok. I explained to him how they were about to blow up a deal with me for the third time essentially. He asked me to go back inside to figure it out. We entered the room and he asked the sales manager what was happening. The sales manager started lying again and I interrupted with "you see, there he goes again." He repeated his comment about how I should not talk to him, and that was all I could take. I told him to STFU and explained how I was in the room with my partner, heard everything, confirmed it with the sales rep in a subsequent call, and ONLY came to the dealer because it was a better deal. The sales guy stood up and tried to interrupt me, and I again told him to STFU and added "sit the f*ck down." At that point, he walked over to me and got in my face (more like my chin really as he was short) and said "don't tell me to sit down", but the other manager quickly pushed him outside and told us to just wait.
The dealer manager returned, apologized and we got the deal that was agreed upon (absent my second key). I was told by the rep that handles the registration and upgrades, etc., that this particular sales manager was new and he wasn't surprised as he had seen some pretty shady tactics while he's been there. That is my story and I still get hot under the collar thinking about it. I know cursing was not professional, but the blatant bait and switch was just too much too handle, especially in light of the history.
Secondly.....Holy smokes on that office scenario! I've heard of shady dealers like that but i think this one takes the cake. Which MB dealer was this if you don't mind me asking or you can PM me. I think that dealer should be avoided especially that specific manager.
Administrator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12,267
Likes: 905
From: THE Orange County, California
2024 C8 Z06- 2025 BMW CS- 2022 Porsche 992 GTS
First of all congrats on the new car!
Secondly.....Holy smokes on that office scenario! I've heard of shady dealers like that but i think this one takes the cake. Which MB dealer was this if you don't mind me asking or you can PM me. I think that dealer should be avoided especially that specific manager.
Secondly.....Holy smokes on that office scenario! I've heard of shady dealers like that but i think this one takes the cake. Which MB dealer was this if you don't mind me asking or you can PM me. I think that dealer should be avoided especially that specific manager.
Administrator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12,267
Likes: 905
From: THE Orange County, California
2024 C8 Z06- 2025 BMW CS- 2022 Porsche 992 GTS
and really you live a life outside of the World--- says he with over 20 thousand posts ....
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 166
Likes: 5
2012 S550 4MATIC, 2007 R-350
It's a long story because of all the background, and I fear the extent of the frustration won't come through, but here's a 30k foot level version, and the 1k foot level version:
30k Feet
Dealer acted very untrustworthy. Sold my Steel Gray to someone else. Offered more expensive car to make up for it. Agreed and went to pick up more expensive car for same price as less expensive car. Sales manager tried bait and switch. I called out the sales manager in front of another manager and told him to STFU because he is lying. Later, told him to STFU and sit down, which prompted him to get in my face (and say "don't tell me to sit") before he was ushered out quickly.
1k Feet
Dealer and I negotiated on a Steel Gray for over 2 weeks. As I am driving up to pick up the car (in Friday, LA traffic), I get called and told they need more paperwork from my company (car bought through my company). I was VERY agitated given this was the first time this was bought up AND they still wanted me to pay the purchase price so they could "hold the car" pending more paperwork. I refused to pay for a car I did not take possession of and I expressed my strong feelings on the same--I assumed they were dealing with someone else who was willing to pay more and this was all pretext. The dealer refused to hold the car, so I told the dealer to pound sand and I started looking elsewhere.
A week later, I get a call saying they could offer me a better deal and would throw in extra stuff, like maintenance, for the misunderstanding. The carrot was sweet enough and I had not found any other Steel Gray with the desired options, so I started to make my way to the dealer when I received a call saying the car was "just sold unknowingly by some other sales person." To say I was infuriated would be a gross understatement.
A day later, as conciliation, the dealer said they'd offer me a more expensive car (i.e., better options) for the same price. I told them to speak to my partner because I couldn't deal with them. However, I chose the car based on spec sheets they sent me. I also sat in my partner's office as he confirmed the major deal points, i.e., more expensive car, same price.
I drove down with my partner. They sit us in a room to "go over the numbers." At this point, I looked at my partner and correctly predicted they were going to change up the deal. Sure enough, the sales manager I had a testy exchange with previously came in and tried to say the deal was different because the car cost more. As I started to respond, he turned to me and said "you told me you don't want to deal with me, and you weren't on the call, so I'm dealing with your partner." I smiled, stood up and simply said the games better stop or we're leaving. I then left for air to calm down.
As I was pacing outside, a dealer manager asked me if everything was ok. I explained to him how they were about to blow up a deal with me for the third time essentially. He asked me to go back inside to figure it out. We entered the room and he asked the sales manager what was happening. The sales manager started lying again and I interrupted with "you see, there he goes again." He repeated his comment about how I should not talk to him, and that was all I could take. I told him to STFU and explained how I was in the room with my partner, heard everything, confirmed it with the sales rep in a subsequent call, and ONLY came to the dealer because it was a better deal. The sales guy stood up and tried to interrupt me, and I again told him to STFU and added "sit the f*ck down." At that point, he walked over to me and got in my face (more like my chin really as he was short) and said "don't tell me to sit down", but the other manager quickly pushed him outside and told us to just wait.
The dealer manager returned, apologized and we got the deal that was agreed upon (absent my second key). I was told by the rep that handles the registration and upgrades, etc., that this particular sales manager was new and he wasn't surprised as he had seen some pretty shady tactics while he's been there. That is my story and I still get hot under the collar thinking about it. I know cursing was not professional, but the blatant bait and switch was just too much too handle, especially in light of the history.
30k Feet
Dealer acted very untrustworthy. Sold my Steel Gray to someone else. Offered more expensive car to make up for it. Agreed and went to pick up more expensive car for same price as less expensive car. Sales manager tried bait and switch. I called out the sales manager in front of another manager and told him to STFU because he is lying. Later, told him to STFU and sit down, which prompted him to get in my face (and say "don't tell me to sit") before he was ushered out quickly.
1k Feet
Dealer and I negotiated on a Steel Gray for over 2 weeks. As I am driving up to pick up the car (in Friday, LA traffic), I get called and told they need more paperwork from my company (car bought through my company). I was VERY agitated given this was the first time this was bought up AND they still wanted me to pay the purchase price so they could "hold the car" pending more paperwork. I refused to pay for a car I did not take possession of and I expressed my strong feelings on the same--I assumed they were dealing with someone else who was willing to pay more and this was all pretext. The dealer refused to hold the car, so I told the dealer to pound sand and I started looking elsewhere.
A week later, I get a call saying they could offer me a better deal and would throw in extra stuff, like maintenance, for the misunderstanding. The carrot was sweet enough and I had not found any other Steel Gray with the desired options, so I started to make my way to the dealer when I received a call saying the car was "just sold unknowingly by some other sales person." To say I was infuriated would be a gross understatement.
A day later, as conciliation, the dealer said they'd offer me a more expensive car (i.e., better options) for the same price. I told them to speak to my partner because I couldn't deal with them. However, I chose the car based on spec sheets they sent me. I also sat in my partner's office as he confirmed the major deal points, i.e., more expensive car, same price.
I drove down with my partner. They sit us in a room to "go over the numbers." At this point, I looked at my partner and correctly predicted they were going to change up the deal. Sure enough, the sales manager I had a testy exchange with previously came in and tried to say the deal was different because the car cost more. As I started to respond, he turned to me and said "you told me you don't want to deal with me, and you weren't on the call, so I'm dealing with your partner." I smiled, stood up and simply said the games better stop or we're leaving. I then left for air to calm down.
As I was pacing outside, a dealer manager asked me if everything was ok. I explained to him how they were about to blow up a deal with me for the third time essentially. He asked me to go back inside to figure it out. We entered the room and he asked the sales manager what was happening. The sales manager started lying again and I interrupted with "you see, there he goes again." He repeated his comment about how I should not talk to him, and that was all I could take. I told him to STFU and explained how I was in the room with my partner, heard everything, confirmed it with the sales rep in a subsequent call, and ONLY came to the dealer because it was a better deal. The sales guy stood up and tried to interrupt me, and I again told him to STFU and added "sit the f*ck down." At that point, he walked over to me and got in my face (more like my chin really as he was short) and said "don't tell me to sit down", but the other manager quickly pushed him outside and told us to just wait.
The dealer manager returned, apologized and we got the deal that was agreed upon (absent my second key). I was told by the rep that handles the registration and upgrades, etc., that this particular sales manager was new and he wasn't surprised as he had seen some pretty shady tactics while he's been there. That is my story and I still get hot under the collar thinking about it. I know cursing was not professional, but the blatant bait and switch was just too much too handle, especially in light of the history.
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 880
Likes: 1
From: Encino, CA
a toy
Shady dealers are everywhere these days, and they're all playing the bait and switch bs.
Just had a SoCal dealer pull the same stunt when we were looking for an S for my dad last month. They guaranteed they had "multiple cars" optioned exactly how we wanted them. I even called to confirm 3 times before driving an hour down. Got the pricing all locked in and we rolled down.
Low and behold, they didn't have a single one. They then swore they'd have it in an hour from their "other lot" which in reality turned out to be a dealer trade. 2 hours later the car shows up, incorrectly optioned. More lies later, they swore they could have the car the next morning since it was en route to the dealer. Turned out to be a demo car with 2k miles at a dealer 150 miles away. They never even mentioned demo car. Took our business elsewhere and found a better deal.
Who knew honest people can be so rare?
Just had a SoCal dealer pull the same stunt when we were looking for an S for my dad last month. They guaranteed they had "multiple cars" optioned exactly how we wanted them. I even called to confirm 3 times before driving an hour down. Got the pricing all locked in and we rolled down.
Low and behold, they didn't have a single one. They then swore they'd have it in an hour from their "other lot" which in reality turned out to be a dealer trade. 2 hours later the car shows up, incorrectly optioned. More lies later, they swore they could have the car the next morning since it was en route to the dealer. Turned out to be a demo car with 2k miles at a dealer 150 miles away. They never even mentioned demo car. Took our business elsewhere and found a better deal.
Who knew honest people can be so rare?
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 16
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E63
^^^^Sorry to hear about the encounter. I too unfortunately encountered it at other dealers and with other cars. I usually do all the negotiating via email, or send confirmatory email following conversations. Although as you found out, not much you can do (practically speaking at least) when there is a scheme at hand.
South Bay Mercedes. However, I wouldn't necessarily avoid the dealer outright. The dealer manager was great and the initial sales guy was fine too, but he was stuck in a hard place because his superior was trying to play games. If anything, take my story as a warning and if and when you deal with the dealer, be extra vigilant. The fact of the matter is I ultimately got a really good deal and this dealer was discounting the cars more than anyone else.
South Bay Mercedes. However, I wouldn't necessarily avoid the dealer outright. The dealer manager was great and the initial sales guy was fine too, but he was stuck in a hard place because his superior was trying to play games. If anything, take my story as a warning and if and when you deal with the dealer, be extra vigilant. The fact of the matter is I ultimately got a really good deal and this dealer was discounting the cars more than anyone else.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,587
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From: Louisiana
E320
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
South Bay Mercedes. However, I wouldn't necessarily avoid the dealer outright. The dealer manager was great and the initial sales guy was fine too, but he was stuck in a hard place because his superior was trying to play games. If anything, take my story as a warning and if and when you deal with the dealer, be extra vigilant. The fact of the matter is I ultimately got a really good deal and this dealer was discounting the cars more than anyone else.
Anyways, congrats on the new car, it looks great and I have no doubt you will enjoy every minute of it
By the way, if you live close, maybe you can join us at Famoso on November 20th:
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...20-2010-a.html
