Are tuned 12/13 faster than tuned 14+
07-11-2016, 01:15 PM
#76
From a roll with no wheelspin issues on the part of the RWD (anything above 30 or so MPH), I think it will be a different outcome tuned vs tuned
Even stock vs stock will be closer than the video posted earlier in this thread (the AWD will still hold an advantage due to IMO power increase)
07-11-2016, 01:45 PM
#77
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I don't think one video on the Internet justifies this comment. Plus how many times do you really line up a race at a red light and nail it for 1/4 mile at a traffic light in the city? Never I bet. But I'm sure there are way more times that your cruising on the hwy 60-70mph and a BMW or vette etc.. pull up next to you and you both nail it.
I live in a suburb and among suburbs of Chicago that are not "the city" and there are plenty of open opportunities to floor it to 60 or so at which point we are saturated with cops so often everyone shuts it down. I see these roll races on highway runs on YouTube and that's great ... Rwd rules
If it doesn't apply to your racing scenarios I withdraw my comment
Last edited by PeterUbers; 07-11-2016 at 01:47 PM.
07-11-2016, 02:02 PM
#78
It does for my real world as most people try me from a stop and I never get people trying me from a roll ...
I live in a suburb and among suburbs of Chicago that are not "the city" and there are plenty of open opportunities to floor it to 60 or so at which point we are saturated with cops so often everyone shuts it down. I see these roll races on highway runs on YouTube and that's great ... Rwd rules
If it doesn't apply to your racing scenarios I withdraw my comment
I live in a suburb and among suburbs of Chicago that are not "the city" and there are plenty of open opportunities to floor it to 60 or so at which point we are saturated with cops so often everyone shuts it down. I see these roll races on highway runs on YouTube and that's great ... Rwd rules
If it doesn't apply to your racing scenarios I withdraw my comment
07-11-2016, 02:20 PM
#79
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Yeah it's ridiculous ... I watch these videos of people honking three times on these magical highways and then roll racing to like 140mph with little to no traffic to dodge and I'm like where the hell is that magical land??
07-11-2016, 07:03 PM
#80
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Ignoring another of gaspam's long winded, arguments with yet another forum member....
I think the rwd 's tuned will be significantly faster than tuned AWD from any roll race that the rwd does not have to worry about traction. The video above shows not just traction advantage of the AWD, but also hp advantage. I dug around the Web looking for stock m157 dynos and it seems the rwd cars no matter the manufacturer rating, typically dyno less than the AWD ones (CLS being the exceptions, smaller sample size, all over the place numbers wise with their P89 package). I feel MB intentionally underrated the AWD versions more to eliminate the losses associated with the drive train.
I think the rwd 's tuned will be significantly faster than tuned AWD from any roll race that the rwd does not have to worry about traction. The video above shows not just traction advantage of the AWD, but also hp advantage. I dug around the Web looking for stock m157 dynos and it seems the rwd cars no matter the manufacturer rating, typically dyno less than the AWD ones (CLS being the exceptions, smaller sample size, all over the place numbers wise with their P89 package). I feel MB intentionally underrated the AWD versions more to eliminate the losses associated with the drive train.
I too have read that the AWD E63 S puts down more HP AND TORQUE than the RWD version of the car.
My point with GASBAG was simple. Coming from the Porsche 911 Turbo world, I use to hear people spout off all the time about how my AWD car wasn't as quick as their RWD car and more than 95% of the time THEY WERE WRONG. I would smoke their car's and they would flood me with excuses. For a 911, there are a number of reasons for why AWD 911 Turbos beat RWD cars. I know these cars are a different animal but a lot of it still applies.
In general, RWD has less drag and have the advantage on the top end, we all know that. With that said, given enough HP, I stand by my comment's that an AWD can pull far enough away to where an RWD won't catch it. I have seen it and I have experienced it first hand.
07-11-2016, 07:11 PM
#81
Member
From a dig, I wholeheartedly agree yes!
From a roll with no wheelspin issues on the part of the RWD (anything above 30 or so MPH), I think it will be a different outcome tuned vs tuned
Even stock vs stock will be closer than the video posted earlier in this thread (the AWD will still hold an advantage due to IMO power increase)
From a roll with no wheelspin issues on the part of the RWD (anything above 30 or so MPH), I think it will be a different outcome tuned vs tuned
Even stock vs stock will be closer than the video posted earlier in this thread (the AWD will still hold an advantage due to IMO power increase)
A lot of what you see in these videos is pure BS. There is no way for any of us to TRULY KNOW if these cars are configured the way posters say they are. There are a million factors. I have seen many bogus videos where it's easy to tell that the poster is high on crack and doesn't know what they're talking about.
I can tell you this, if an AWD gets a good enough jump, the RWD IS NOT going to catch it. Period. When an AWD is roll racing against an RWD, the AWD has to have more HP to get a jump on the RWD due to the additional drag of the AWD drive train. The fact that a RWD might pull on it and win a roll race doesn't mean the RWD is "faster", it means it's faster from a roll and I don't know anyone who measures the performance of a car by racing on a roll. It's a dumb argument and really proves nothing.
Last edited by proxygeek; 07-11-2016 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Grammar
07-11-2016, 07:17 PM
#82
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Now that I do not agree with! Just look at the dynos posted everywhere around the web. ALL M157s typically dyno ~700rwtq (typical dynojet, plus or minus a magical number) regardless of RWD or AWD. So unless he can show AWDs dynoing at 600rwtq tuned OR RWDs dynoing at 800rwtq tuned, he is wrong on that
I was told by a mechanic at Mercedes Benz that the E63 S AMG 4 Matic is the fastest production car they make. All the way around, I agree with him. It is.
Who cares about racing on a role, this is usually spurred on by guys who get blown away off the line, on the track, or know that their cars can do rice racer fly-by shots on the freeway.
07-11-2016, 07:40 PM
#83
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You can't say who cares about a roll race or nobody measures performance that way. There are plenty of sponsored roll racing events, people always talk about v-box 60-130 times, and YouTube is littered with 3-honk videos. In my area I almost never get a stoplight challenge. If I had to put a number on it I'd say it's 1 in 100.
When it comes to racing from a stop, the only times that really happens for me is at the drag strip where my car typically has proper tires and I'm not giving up anything to AWD. I'll take this car to the strip as soon as we're out of these 114* temps and see what kind of 60ft times I can get with regular street tires and d/rs.
When it comes to racing from a stop, the only times that really happens for me is at the drag strip where my car typically has proper tires and I'm not giving up anything to AWD. I'll take this car to the strip as soon as we're out of these 114* temps and see what kind of 60ft times I can get with regular street tires and d/rs.
07-11-2016, 09:14 PM
#84
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Agree, after our discourse, I'll never take the guy seriously. Ridiculous.
My point with GASBAG was simple. Coming from the Porsche 911 Turbo world, I use to hear people spout off all the time about how my AWD car wasn't as quick as their RWD car and more than 95% of the time THEY WERE WRONG. I would smoke their car's and they would flood me with excuses.
In general, RWD has less drag and have the advantage on the top end, we all know that. With that said, given enough HP, I stand by my comment's that an AWD can pull far enough away to where an RWD won't catch it. I have seen it and I have experienced it first hand.
My point with GASBAG was simple. Coming from the Porsche 911 Turbo world, I use to hear people spout off all the time about how my AWD car wasn't as quick as their RWD car and more than 95% of the time THEY WERE WRONG. I would smoke their car's and they would flood me with excuses.
In general, RWD has less drag and have the advantage on the top end, we all know that. With that said, given enough HP, I stand by my comment's that an AWD can pull far enough away to where an RWD won't catch it. I have seen it and I have experienced it first hand.
Im the ridiculous one? this coming from you, the self-professed mathematician physicist turned electrical engineer that wants the scientific method applied to all discussions, when it suits him, but then likes to make unsubstantiated claims like "more than 95% of the time THEY WERE WRONG"... come on bro, you know that's now how the scientific method works... please provide us with your data
as usual you're just running your mouth like the whiny little B@tch you are..
Last edited by gaspam; 07-12-2016 at 01:06 AM.
07-11-2016, 09:16 PM
#85
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You can't say who cares about a roll race or nobody measures performance that way. There are plenty of sponsored roll racing events, people always talk about v-box 60-130 times, and YouTube is littered with 3-honk videos. In my area I almost never get a stoplight challenge. If I had to put a number on it I'd say it's 1 in 100.
When it comes to racing from a stop, the only times that really happens for me is at the drag strip where my car typically has proper tires and I'm not giving up anything to AWD. I'll take this car to the strip as soon as we're out of these 114* temps and see what kind of 60ft times I can get with regular street tires and d/rs.
When it comes to racing from a stop, the only times that really happens for me is at the drag strip where my car typically has proper tires and I'm not giving up anything to AWD. I'll take this car to the strip as soon as we're out of these 114* temps and see what kind of 60ft times I can get with regular street tires and d/rs.
I have done tons of vbox 60-130mph testing on my various cars over the years. I plan on doing the same on the E63 S. I usually do it when the weather is cool and find thee optimal gear to start. Some past results:
FBO '09 GT-R on E85: 6.67
FBO '09 CTS-V: 7.71
FBO '13 M5: 7.79
Kleemann tuned '05 CL65: 8.45
07-11-2016, 11:48 PM
#86
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+1
I have done tons of vbox 60-130mph testing on my various cars over the years. I plan on doing the same on the E63 S. I usually do it when the weather is cool and find thee optimal gear to start. Some past results:
FBO '09 GT-R on E85: 6.67
FBO '09 CTS-V: 7.71
FBO '13 M5: 7.79
Kleemann tuned '05 CL65: 8.45
I have done tons of vbox 60-130mph testing on my various cars over the years. I plan on doing the same on the E63 S. I usually do it when the weather is cool and find thee optimal gear to start. Some past results:
FBO '09 GT-R on E85: 6.67
FBO '09 CTS-V: 7.71
FBO '13 M5: 7.79
Kleemann tuned '05 CL65: 8.45
I find it's less likely that I find myself the first car at a light ( usually behind a few others ) next to another fast car , both first at the light in pole position waiting for a race start
07-12-2016, 12:01 AM
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My point with GASBAG was simple. Coming from the Porsche 911 Turbo world, I use to hear people spout off all the time about how my AWD car wasn't as quick as their RWD car and more than 95% of the time THEY WERE WRONG. I would smoke their car's and they would flood me with excuses. For a 911, there are a number of reasons for why AWD 911 Turbos beat RWD cars. I know these cars are a different animal but a lot of it still applies.
07-12-2016, 08:37 AM
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07-12-2016, 01:53 PM
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07-13-2016, 03:14 PM
#91
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.... keep in mind the efficiency advantage of rwd to awd isnt static or linear... at speeds under around 115mph the 2 are pretty close in terms if efficiency, but as frictions and heat builds up the gap in efficiency between rwd and awd starts to widen at high speeds over 115+
people tend to think rwd vs awd drivetrain loss differences are static (like always rwd is 7% more efficient, or something to that effect) , buts its not, at normal speeds awd and rwd drivetrain losses are pretty close, but at high speeds the Frictional torque in drivetrain is greater in awd because its function of speed, frictional surface (more of it in awd) and transmission frictional factor
the Frictional torque in drivetrain is different for every transmission and awd system, but when plotted on a graph in physics class back in college, the efficiency curve shape between awd vs rwd always looks the same, an exponential curve with efficiency being very close the first ~80% of the curve and then exponentially spreading out the last ~20%
Those old common constants like roughly 10% for fwd, 13% for rwd, and 20% for awd are mostly based on stock, mediocre engines at max hp and the related rpm, where measured engine hp and wheel hp can be compared. In all cases, pro-race shops with engine dynos have proven that once you have upped the hp on that engine by 2X or more for racing, those correction factors all drop.
The basis for the drivetrain losses are shown by the power equation:
Hp = TN/5252. It's proportional to the rpm and frictional torque load in the gears, that follow the engine torque curve. That gives you the non-linear curve for the the correction factor that you described.
As you implied, with awd you have the extra drive axle with a differential that typically has the less efficient bevel gears, vs the helical gears found in the transmission. But the torque is now shared by the 2 axles, which softens this effect.
.
Last edited by kevink2; 07-13-2016 at 03:16 PM.
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07-13-2016, 03:41 PM
#93
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I mostly agree, except for the focus on a speed threshold (115mph) where rwd vs awd losses become substantially different.
Those old common constants like roughly 10% for fwd, 13% for rwd, and 20% for awd are mostly based on stock, mediocre engines at max hp and the related rpm, where measured engine hp and wheel hp can be compared. In all cases, pro-race shops with engine dynos have proven that once you have upped the hp on that engine by 2X or more for racing, those correction factors all drop.
The basis for the drivetrain losses are shown by the power equation:
Hp = TN/5252. It's proportional to the rpm and frictional torque load in the gears, that follow the engine torque curve. That gives you the non-linear curve for the the correction factor that you described.
As you implied, with awd you have the extra drive axle with a differential that typically has the less efficient bevel gears, vs the helical gears found in the transmission. But the torque is now shared by the 2 axles, which softens this effect.
.
Those old common constants like roughly 10% for fwd, 13% for rwd, and 20% for awd are mostly based on stock, mediocre engines at max hp and the related rpm, where measured engine hp and wheel hp can be compared. In all cases, pro-race shops with engine dynos have proven that once you have upped the hp on that engine by 2X or more for racing, those correction factors all drop.
The basis for the drivetrain losses are shown by the power equation:
Hp = TN/5252. It's proportional to the rpm and frictional torque load in the gears, that follow the engine torque curve. That gives you the non-linear curve for the the correction factor that you described.
As you implied, with awd you have the extra drive axle with a differential that typically has the less efficient bevel gears, vs the helical gears found in the transmission. But the torque is now shared by the 2 axles, which softens this effect.
.
07-13-2016, 04:39 PM
#94
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