Which platform better for high horsepower build?
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Lexus ISF
Which platform better for high horsepower build?
Hi everybody. I just posted this same question in the W213 section looking for feedback.
I don't own an AMG, but am looking for some insight from anybody here who understands the power potential for the 5.5l and 4.0l turbo engines. I currently DD my truck and have a decently modified Lexus ISF for fun, but I've been thinking about turning the ISF into more of a track only vehicle and building a comfortable high horsepower "family" vehicle that will surprise everybody at the drag strip. I definitely want AWD and I've always been a fan of the Mercedes wagons.
I've been looking at the new AMG E63S wagon and love it...I have a 9.XX 1/4 mile goal in mind while still retaining comfort and driveability. Would it be better to get a W212 (I assume there is much more aftermarket support for engine internals, turbos, etc) with the 5.5l or get a W213 and wait for the aftermarket to catch up. I know I would greatly enjoy the improved driving dynamic with the W213's new AWD system and any new tech provided, but with comfy straight line speed being my ultimate goal...??? Which engine has more potential? Thanks in advance for any advice.
I don't own an AMG, but am looking for some insight from anybody here who understands the power potential for the 5.5l and 4.0l turbo engines. I currently DD my truck and have a decently modified Lexus ISF for fun, but I've been thinking about turning the ISF into more of a track only vehicle and building a comfortable high horsepower "family" vehicle that will surprise everybody at the drag strip. I definitely want AWD and I've always been a fan of the Mercedes wagons.
I've been looking at the new AMG E63S wagon and love it...I have a 9.XX 1/4 mile goal in mind while still retaining comfort and driveability. Would it be better to get a W212 (I assume there is much more aftermarket support for engine internals, turbos, etc) with the 5.5l or get a W213 and wait for the aftermarket to catch up. I know I would greatly enjoy the improved driving dynamic with the W213's new AWD system and any new tech provided, but with comfy straight line speed being my ultimate goal...??? Which engine has more potential? Thanks in advance for any advice.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Lexus ISF
Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 109
Likes: 4
From: SF Peninsula
‘17 Carrera GTS, ‘16 E63 Estate, 1965 Shelby Cobra and a few more
If you want a (Mercedes) track car, buy a new GT R. The E class is too heavy. There are a lot of cars available in this price range that will give you a phenomenal track experience. Hell, a tricked out Miata will be faster and a lot more fun on the track that some over-powered luxury sedan.
Or go spend the money on a 911 that will turn good times without killing the car in the process. The new Carrera T is worth looking at.
Or go spend the money on a 911 that will turn good times without killing the car in the process. The new Carrera T is worth looking at.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Lexus ISF
If you want a (Mercedes) track car, buy a new GT R. The E class is too heavy. There are a lot of cars available in this price range that will give you a phenomenal track experience. Hell, a tricked out Miata will be faster and a lot more fun on the track that some over-powered luxury sedan.
Or go spend the money on a 911 that will turn good times without killing the car in the process. The new Carrera T is worth looking at.
Or go spend the money on a 911 that will turn good times without killing the car in the process. The new Carrera T is worth looking at.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,649
Likes: 207
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
You can build a 1000hp car on either platform. The problem will be getting the software to allow you to use it. There are 1000+hp cars that still can’t break 9s because of this.
Trending Topics
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,775
Likes: 1,152
From: NY
E63S | X5
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 109
Likes: 4
From: SF Peninsula
‘17 Carrera GTS, ‘16 E63 Estate, 1965 Shelby Cobra and a few more
1) Drivetrain: Horsepower is just a number that is the result of a torque measurement. The Mercedes 7 (and 9) speed MCT is a wet clutch, not a torque converter, so it needs a control unit to engage/disengage the clutch. That TCU requires calibration with the engine output to properly manage gear shifts. I’d be concerned about the driveability with the power you are targeting... and then there is durability.
2) Durability: The drivetrain on the W212 is good up to 1,300 nm of torque but the problem is that as you get closer to max the result will be a decrease in component lifecycle.
3) Warranty: I have a 2016 W212 Estate that I bought new... I would not want to have one of these cars without a warranty. A W213 tuned is going to void the warranty. I’m actually looking at a build-to-order w213 now just because I don’t want to be off warranty in another year.
These cars are fast-as-*uck right out of the box. There is a absurdity factor in tuning these cars when the problem isn’t lack of power but too much weight.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 13,799
Likes: 3,228
2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ECU dyno tune; EDOK TCU tune; BB intakes; sprintbooster
Also by all accounts the w213 mct is significantly improved for daily drive ability over the w212
A traditional TC like in the new m5 is still going to be the smoothest to drive with the best off the line snap from "brake to gas"
A traditional TC like in the new m5 is still going to be the smoothest to drive with the best off the line snap from "brake to gas"
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 40
CLS63 AMG
Still wondering here if the new M5 with that advantage is really any faster off the line than the new E63s...
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,775
Likes: 1,152
From: NY
E63S | X5
I think the weak point on the new one will be the whole rwd to awd system and I see those cars spending a fair bit of time in the shop because of that.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Lexus ISF
Stock vs stock they'll be about the same. But the M5 will have more potential once you start talking mod for mod.
I think the weak point on the new one will be the whole rwd to awd system and I see those cars spending a fair bit of time in the shop because of that.
I think the weak point on the new one will be the whole rwd to awd system and I see those cars spending a fair bit of time in the shop because of that.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,649
Likes: 207
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
I'm not enough of a fan of the RS7 to consider it, but I am interested in the new M5. I actually dropped by both Mercedes and BMW dealerships today to chat up a few salesmen. I like the looks of the E63 a little better and am inclined to believe it would be a little more reliable than the M5 (possibly just a personal bias as I've never owned either brand), but I tend to agree that the M5 might have more speed potential. It is a few hundred pounds lighter too, which is nice.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,775
Likes: 1,152
From: NY
E63S | X5
I'm not enough of a fan of the RS7 to consider it, but I am interested in the new M5. I actually dropped by both Mercedes and BMW dealerships today to chat up a few salesmen. I like the looks of the E63 a little better and am inclined to believe it would be a little more reliable than the M5 (possibly just a personal bias as I've never owned either brand), but I tend to agree that the M5 might have more speed potential. It is a few hundred pounds lighter too, which is nice.
Generally speaking, I let new models come out for at least a year before buying them so I'd still give this decision some time. The bottom line is, the 5.5L w212 won't get you 9.xx and even getting reliable 10.9x's is tough because the tranny is going to stop you. Furthermore, realistically speaking you're not going to hit 9's in a heavy German power-sedan without throwing lots of cash at the car and sacrificing things. If you want a 9 second sedan you're looking at a Hellcat or maybe even the new CTS-V. Personally, I think that cts-v is a great looking car I just don't know enough about them to speak on reliability and modability, but I'll bet there are plenty of ways to make more power with them and likely cheaper being American.
Now, if you reset your goals a little bit and just want a fast, fun, powerful sedan that is comfortable inside, turns heads outside, and slaps the majority of what is on the street then by all means, get a w213 e63s. I still think at the end of the day the m5 is going to be faster than the E when it comes to modding especially as BMW tends to get more aftermarket support than MB. I'm with you on the RS7, it doesn't do much for me with that design although the interior is awesome. If an RS6 was stateside I wouldn't be in an MB though.
Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 109
Likes: 4
From: SF Peninsula
‘17 Carrera GTS, ‘16 E63 Estate, 1965 Shelby Cobra and a few more
There is mechanical reliability and then there is “***** going wrong” reliability. My Range Rover always got me A-B but the wiper squirter would regularly pop up out of the hood, the control arm bushings would leak and cause a knocking (which is how I knew they needed replacing), the cameras would stop working, the proximity sensor in the bumper would pop out of alignment and cause the beeper to go off nonstop. Weird ***** going wrong, but heh it was reliable becuase I got to where I needed to go. That Range Rover spent more time at the dealer than anything else I have owned... except for the Jaguar XFRS that I had for 6 days before going to the dealer for a month and then getting bought back by Land Rover Jaguar.
Mercedes went through a bad period of weird ***** going wrong but the W212 really tied that off and I have enough confidence in quality as an integral part of their design process that I’m about to trade in for a W213. I’ve had my W212 Estate for 2 years and it has been to the dealer for regular service, brake replacement (which is frequent), an interior trim warranty issue (sun visors, they ended up redesigning them mid-year), and one mechanical warranty issue, a coolant hose the sprung a pin hole leak.
Mercedes went through a bad period of weird ***** going wrong but the W212 really tied that off and I have enough confidence in quality as an integral part of their design process that I’m about to trade in for a W213. I’ve had my W212 Estate for 2 years and it has been to the dealer for regular service, brake replacement (which is frequent), an interior trim warranty issue (sun visors, they ended up redesigning them mid-year), and one mechanical warranty issue, a coolant hose the sprung a pin hole leak.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Lexus ISF
In my experience, my MB's have been more reliable than my BMWs. But my BMWs always start and get from A to B as well.
Generally speaking, I let new models come out for at least a year before buying them so I'd still give this decision some time. The bottom line is, the 5.5L w212 won't get you 9.xx and even getting reliable 10.9x's is tough because the tranny is going to stop you. Furthermore, realistically speaking you're not going to hit 9's in a heavy German power-sedan without throwing lots of cash at the car and sacrificing things. If you want a 9 second sedan you're looking at a Hellcat or maybe even the new CTS-V. Personally, I think that cts-v is a great looking car I just don't know enough about them to speak on reliability and modability, but I'll bet there are plenty of ways to make more power with them and likely cheaper being American.
Now, if you reset your goals a little bit and just want a fast, fun, powerful sedan that is comfortable inside, turns heads outside, and slaps the majority of what is on the street then by all means, get a w213 e63s. I still think at the end of the day the m5 is going to be faster than the E when it comes to modding especially as BMW tends to get more aftermarket support than MB. I'm with you on the RS7, it doesn't do much for me with that design although the interior is awesome. If an RS6 was stateside I wouldn't be in an MB though.
Generally speaking, I let new models come out for at least a year before buying them so I'd still give this decision some time. The bottom line is, the 5.5L w212 won't get you 9.xx and even getting reliable 10.9x's is tough because the tranny is going to stop you. Furthermore, realistically speaking you're not going to hit 9's in a heavy German power-sedan without throwing lots of cash at the car and sacrificing things. If you want a 9 second sedan you're looking at a Hellcat or maybe even the new CTS-V. Personally, I think that cts-v is a great looking car I just don't know enough about them to speak on reliability and modability, but I'll bet there are plenty of ways to make more power with them and likely cheaper being American.
Now, if you reset your goals a little bit and just want a fast, fun, powerful sedan that is comfortable inside, turns heads outside, and slaps the majority of what is on the street then by all means, get a w213 e63s. I still think at the end of the day the m5 is going to be faster than the E when it comes to modding especially as BMW tends to get more aftermarket support than MB. I'm with you on the RS7, it doesn't do much for me with that design although the interior is awesome. If an RS6 was stateside I wouldn't be in an MB though.
Member
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 84
Likes: 25
From: Canberra, ACT. Australia.
2012 E63 AMG Estate
We stopped getting the E63 Wagon in January 2013, when the facelifted W212 landed. So no wagons for 5 years now. I was lucky enough to get one of the last. But, the RS6 is ONLY available in the wagon in AUS and it owns that sector as a result. You guys get a stack more options in the high powered sedan/wagon stakes over there than we do, for sure.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Lexus ISF
We stopped getting the E63 Wagon in January 2013, when the facelifted W212 landed. So no wagons for 5 years now. I was lucky enough to get one of the last. But, the RS6 is ONLY available in the wagon in AUS and it owns that sector as a result. You guys get a stack more options in the high powered sedan/wagon stakes over there than we do, for sure.
