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Very impressive! What mods do you have and what fuel are you running?
Stock downpipes gutted. K&N filters . I do have pre water/meth injection which shows great gains without tune but sadly my lines need to be replaced. So it was not running during my runs. I am running ms-109 which is about 103 octane rating
Stock downpipes gutted. K&N filters . I do have pre water/meth injection which shows great gains without tune but sadly my lines need to be replaced. So it was not running during my runs. I am running ms-109 which is about 103 octane rating
Would you mind sharing more information on your water meth setup? Location and nozzle size? % water vs meth ? I've run water / meth on an Evo with great success in the past (with Zeitronix failsafes) and am considering doing so with the e63 as well. The e63 is a daily driver though and I found filling the meth tank to be a PITA after a while. Probably would feel differently if I just bought the Snow mixture (as it is easier than buying and storing M1), but I am not sure on the quality.
Pre turbo. Pro meth nozzle size 2.5 . Using 75% meth 25% distilled water. Located at my turbo inlet pipe right before the silicon coupler taped into the plastic intake. It atomizes perfectly then cools the compressed air as the turbo is working making the turbo more efficient not needing to spin as much to produce a given boost keeping temps down from the main source that creates heat
While its not the best time to try and achieve a new personal best in the quarter mile, it's the absolute best time to try and beat on a car to identify any problem areas in a tune as it relates to heat.
I have been very fortunate to have access to a beta tune from Jerry at Eurocharged that I have been messing with.
Jerry refers to it at the "E60 tune".
It allows me to run the tune with anything in the tank from a full tank of 93 to a blend of E85 and 93 achieving an equivalent E60 blend... 60% ethanol per volume.
The things I've noticed....
on cold start the rpms are a little higher (~1100 rpm's) until it goes through the start up sequence, then it drops to ~680 rpms.
zero issues with heat soak and the intake temps are still within a 30 degree delta with ambient temps
the EGT's typically are around 900 to 1100. At max boost and sustained load the most I saw was 1400 with Cats in place. This was my biggest concern to be honest.
Zero issues with drive-ability
Never once did the car go into limp mode.
The injector duty cycle saw a max demand of 90% load at E60. It was less when running E20 or E40 in the tank. The fuels pump seem to handle the extra demand.
The car uses less boost to make the power now... under 18psi at max load was the worst I saw... As temps get cooler then demand will be even less.
overall the car is running a little cooler with the higher ethanol blend
I've done a few 1/4 passes and logged the draggy runs. They've all been in +90 degree temps.
I've had anywhere from E20 to E60 blend in the tank. I'm currently running E20.
For the run below I was at the maximum concentration of E85 to 93 octane allowed by the tune, E60.
Using the George Belton E85 calculator I used the following ratio of E85 to 93 Octane...
Based on a 21 gallon tank, I used 14 gallons of E85 mixed with 7 gallons of 93 octane (2:1 ratio) to achieve an equivalent of 101 octane gas in the tank with a 60% concentration of ethanol, hence E60.
The beta tune I am running has been modified to recognize the different ethanol content and use the correct map. Do not try running these levels of ethanol with a typical tune.
What did this tank of fuel cost me to beat my race gas tune? 14 gallons of E85 at $2/gallon and 7 gallons of 93 at $3.50/gallon for a combined total of ~ $52.50 per tank versus $210.00 per tank of race gas.
I also was able to roll up to my local HEB gas station 3 miles away and select both 93 and E85 from the same pump versus having to drive to my local speed shop 25 miles away...
My car is a good test bed for Jerry's tunes for a number of reasons, but the primary reason is that the car is essentially stock with the addition of a Weistec Water Meth injection kit. We did not tune for the water meth, I only use it to lower intake temps here in Houston where it gets stupid hot and humid. The tunes I run do not rely on the Water Meth as we disable it when on the dyno. The car has stock fuel pumps, stock intercoolers and stock intakes, as well as the stock exhaust and Cats, though I have removed the rear mufflers for a little extra growl. Any increase in performance can be attributed to the tune, not supporting hardware. I also added water wetter to the intercooler water for increased heat wicking.
The results?
A new personal best on a Thursday afternoon at 3:00 pm on September 12th in 94 degree temperatures and a DA of 2366 feet!
11.15 @ 128.98 mph is pretty damn good, and in spite of a 1.8 60 ft. This even beats my previous race tune when I was running 104 race gas at $10.00/gallon.
The car pulls and pulls, without the power falling off in the higher rpm's like some tunes I've experienced previously.
Here's the 60-130 from that run as proof of power being made up top.... once again a new record for me and all without the need for additional supporting hardware, i.e air filters or down pipes etc..
We still have to put the car on the rollers to see how it looks, but the real world results tell me everything I need to know. The trap speed tells me the car is making stupid power.
Once we get the car back on the rollers when Jerry is back I will update this thread with a new graph.
Until then I'll continue to drive around in sport plus and manual mode with a stupid *** grin on my face.
I'm confident that when cooler temps roll around I'll be able to say I have a 10 second car.
The beta tune I am running has been modified to recognize the different ethanol content and use the correct map.
Trying to understand this part right here. Any hardware changes like flex fuel sensors, etc? Wondering how the tune can recognize ethanol content since we don't have flex fuel capabilities in the ECU. On some platforms the sensor is there and just needs to be switched on but I didn't think we had that option.
Definitely good number! Yea race gas is expensive as ****. Are there any effects of the ethanol over time effects on our fuel system?. It’s easy for me to get race gas here in ny. There a Sunoco gt260 100 octane pump 10 min from my house but 9.29 per gallon. I only ise
my race gas tune on race nights so the price is not crazy. $50-60 bucks and I can race that night and have it for the next couple days then I remove the tune
Trying to understand this part right here. Any hardware changes like flex fuel sensors, etc? Wondering how the tune can recognize ethanol content since we don't have flex fuel capabilities in the ECU. On some platforms the sensor is there and just needs to be switched on but I didn't think we had that option.
Jerry will need to answer you definitively, but according to him the ECU has the capability to detect ethanol concentrations but it has to be turned on. He does this in the software. We do not have an ethanol sensor so unsure how it does this.
I've been logging fuel trims etc and the tune is adapting to different ethanol concentrations. The E60 tune is hardware limited by the stock fuel system however.
For the system to be a true flex fuel tune allowing you to run 100% E85, the fuel pumps will need to be upgraded, among other things.
For me this is a great compromise. The ethanol helps keep things cooler as well which is a great benefit here in summer.
Definitely good number! Yea race gas is expensive as ****. Are there any effects of the ethanol over time effects on our fuel system?. It’s easy for me to get race gas here in ny. There a Sunoco gt260 100 octane pump 10 min from my house but 9.29 per gallon. I only ise
my race gas tune on race nights so the price is not crazy. $50-60 bucks and I can race that night and have it for the next couple days then I remove the tune
I worry about the long term effects as well. We run 10% ethanol daily as it is though so the cars can handle a certain percentage.
My intention is to only run E60 on race days or when wanting to play and run E30 daily. There are people in here that have been running E30 for some time now with no adverse effects.
We also plan on pulling the plugs and checking them soon to see how they look.
I really like the auto switching this tune allows. It adapts on the fly saving me the hassle of switching tunes.
Damn....amazing....I love my EC tune as well....What are your 0-60 times now? Tough to crack into the 2's....
My 0-60 is now 3.2 with a 1ft rollout per VBOX or 3.4 per draggy.
The TCU is unaffected by any tune which aggravates me. I've consigned myself to the fact our transmissions will only let us play so hard. If I could launch harder out of the hole then our 0-60 times would improve and I would be in the 10's easily with my ECU tune as it stands.
I do want to believe the Renntech TCU claims but no one has stepped forward with any tangible proof it works, otherwise I'd be all over it.
I'm sure that's the intention. You'll need to ask him.
Using my car as the cautious guinea pig has its benefits because my car is basically stock, including stock plugs with stock gap.
People who end up with this tune (or a version there of) should be happy with the results.
I'm hopeful that people with after market mods may even see a better increase in performance
Of note, please see the AFR and boost plot for the tune on the lower graph. AFR's look really good and max boost is just shy of 18 psi.
Also note that the power does not drop off in the higher RPM's like on some previous tunes.
Torque is flat, with just more of it... and power builds in a linear fashion as a result. The car is a joy to drive on the street.
I'm sure that's the intention. You'll need to ask him.
Using my car as the cautious guinea pig has its benefits because my car is basically stock, including stock plugs with stock gap.
People who end up with this tune (or a version there of) should be happy with the results.
I'm hopeful that people with after market mods may even see a better increase in performance
its of big interest to me because your goals seem to align with mine as far as how you want the tune to perform. giant spikes of tq are cool for bench racing and dyno sheets, but they're almost useless for me in a RWD. also, when speaking of EGT's, etc...not only does it deliver on the higher end but its reasonable to think that its a 'safer' tune, as well.
i really appreciate you being the guinea pig...and chronicling your journey....for the community. this is one of the best threads on the forum....
I'm an engineer by profession and I like documenting my progress for other peoples benefit.
I also feel there is way to much smoke and mirrors in the aftermarket world. Transparency is key with me.
We have been slowly tweaking this tune over the last year.
Jerry liked the performance so much he ended up buying a E63S of his own. He is on the same tune as me, but he is looking to additional hardware mods to truly explore the upper boundaries of these cars.
As before, I think my tune will end up being the stage 1 version of this flex tune, and for those of us who want a true E85 tune, with simple hardware mods Jerry should be able to get you there.
the car is essentially stock with the addition of a Weistec Water Meth injection kit. We did not tune for the water meth, I only use it to lower intake temps here in Houston where it gets stupid hot and humid. I also added water wetter to the intercooler water for increased heat wicking.
The results? A new personal best on a Thursday afternoon at 3:00 pm on September 12th in 94 degree temperatures and a DA of 2366 feet!
11.15 @ 128.98 mph is pretty damn good, and in spite of a 1.8 60 ft. This even beats my previous race tune when I was running 104 race gas at $10.00/gallon.
Nice time. Can you run without the water meth to see what difference it makes?
Went out again today to do a couple of runs without water meth per billvp218 request above. I don't need much of an excuse to misbehave...
I had half a tank of E20 and added 9 gallons of E85 for an effective octane of 100 and a E53 blend.
I drove from the fuel site to the "test track", a distance of ~ 7 miles.
I don't know if that was enough distance for the tune to adapt to the new fuel...
Temps were 94 degrees... humidity was high.
Pass 1 at E53 without water meth...
Pass 2 at E53 without water meth
The runs were repeatable.
I noticed one thing new with this tune today... the Traction Control has to be in Sport Mode.
The car does not like the 2nd to 3rd gear change unless the traction control is in Sport. When running in normal mode the car would pull power during the gear change. Throw TC back into sport and the gear changes were fine.
I'm guessing its doesn't like the elevated torque when driving in normal mode.
I don't want to give to much credence to the water meth yet and will go back out tomorrow for a couple of more non meth runs to see if it can improve.
By then I will have slightly less fuel in the tank, and if there are any lingering questions regarding fuel adaptations then I will have had enough miles on the new tune to dispel that particular question...
I may throw some more E85 on top to bring the % up to E60.
Use a GoPro or cell phone mount to record the speedometer and tachometer. That hesitation during gear change could be clutch slipping, it gets worse when the transmission oil temperature goes up. Sometimes it can also be the ECU cutting power before shift. The solution to that is manual mode. There is no power loss if the shift is done in manual mode. I got my best 1/4 this way but it is a bit tricky to time the paddles in 1st 2 gears.
100% methanol makes more power than 50/50 irrespective of IAT. Adds more O2 to the combustion chamber. I increased methanol and went faster with no change to my tune. If your nozzles are small though it might not make much difference eliminating the water.
I'm not using the meth as a power adder though or I'd consider it. My charge air temps look pretty good with the 50/50 I'm running right now.
I'd like to think the E85 is helping keep things cooler.
Another observation today.
I may be making too much torque down low with the E60 map. I've had a couple of times the 2/3 gear shift has hesitated now under full load.
Not all the time mind you and usually only after beating on it repeatedly. It may be oil temp related because it's still very hot and humid here.
We'll see once it starts getting cooler if it keeps reoccurring.
The same
exact thing was happening to me. But when I did brake boosting with traction off it didn’t happen. So I tried something to see if it was traction control slightly kicking in and it was. In race start as soon as you take off hold the traction button down so that traction is off completely and it stopped jerking from 2-3. Actually got a better time doing that .
suspenion soft
race start
turn off traction as soon as you launch..
i can can get better times with brake boosting but I’m trying to preserve my motor mounts this time around and not completely rip my front drive shaft like I did 2 weeks ago. Still on my 20x10 wheels with tire pressure at
40psi. Next week I’ll try again with stock wheels and tire pressure at 30psi
100% methanol makes more power than 50/50 irrespective of IAT. Adds more O2 to the combustion chamber. I increased methanol and went faster with no change to my tune. If your nozzles are small though it might not make much difference eliminating the water.
That's not true. If there is no knock with his current setup at his tune's timing levels, then adding more meth just makes it run richer - and thus lowers power.
I've had that happen to me before in other cars, and adjusted/lowered meth on successive dyno runs myself to increase over 20whp.
On my set up I added 3mph to the trap speed on 93 octane tune by increasing the methanol. No change to the tune no other adjustment.
On the 100 octane tune I also added 3 miles per hour to the Trap speed simply by increasing methanol.
I used identical fuel for both tunes. I logged the air-fuel ratios and the fuel trims and I found the ECU was cutting fuel when I increased the methanol, negative short-term fuel trims. Unfortunately I was unable to log knock.
That was my experience and maybe it won't apply to others. Every situation is unique. I did not have any issue running too rich. Running rich on alcohol fuel like E60 is better tolerated than running rich with straight gasoline. this is all Theory he won't know if it works for him until he tries.
I simply tried it I wanted to see what would happen. If it slows the car down you can always go back to 50/50.
On my set up I added 3mph to the trap speed on 93 octane tune by increasing the methanol. No change to the tune no other adjustment.
On the 100 octane tune I also added 3 miles per hour to the Trap speed simply by increasing methanol.
I used identical fuel for both tunes. I logged the air-fuel ratios and the fuel trims and I found the ECU was cutting fuel when I increased the methanol, negative short-term fuel trims. Unfortunately I was unable to log knock.
That was my experience and maybe it won't apply to others. Every situation is unique. I did not have any issue running too rich. Running rich on alcohol fuel like E60 is better tolerated than running rich with straight gasoline. this is all Theory he won't know if it works for him until he tries.
I simply tried it I wanted to see what would happen. If it slows the car down you can always go back to 50/50.
I agree it won't hurt to try, I was just stating that it could hurt because it happened to me.
09-01-2019, 02:12 PM
