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I originally posted this is a different thread, but it was slightly off topic to that thread. I thought it warranted its own thread as I think the observations I made may be of interest to some of you.
I'd also invite others to post up any pre/post tune figures or videos they have which help establish performance benchmarks...
The content below compares the EuroCharged Stage 2 Tune against a stock ECU tune on one vehicle and the same stock car for a baseline comparison pre and post tune.
We recently performed some real world testing at a NHRA sanctioned Quarter Mile Track in Houston, TX. Track prep was superb as is expected at a track of this caliber.
Here's what we found after successive quarter mile testing over a two week period between my car (stock) and one that recently received a tune/catless dp upgrade
At the start of testing both cars where at an identical state of tune... stock
Ignore the actual numbers as its not the intent of this post, its just meant as a means to compare both tunes
My car made 577 hp / 625 tq
My partner in crime made 582 hp / 619 tq
Both cars are 2014 E63S's...
We made multiple passes at Royal Purple Raceway on 22nd June, with the following time slip indicative of all races. Both cars where consistent. My car (460) was a little slower out of the hole, but consistently just a little faster on the top end.
a week later, after the other vehicle received a Eurocharged Tune and Catless DP, we revisited the raceway with the following results.
My car is 258, my friend's is 120.
Proof is in the pudding as they say.
A week later under very similar track conditions (approximately 93°F) and its obvious my friends car has seen a tangible increase in performance.
He picked up 3 tenths on his quarter mile time and 2 mph in his trap.
That may not sound like much, but the week previous it was a great lineup with each race a toss up who would win... now, all I ever see is his tail lights running down the track.
When we launch, he gets the hole shot and jumps out in front of me... once we get rolling we are neck and neck all the way to the end, but by then the damage is done. While we have the same trap now, he has me down low with the additional torque he received via his new tune.
My only recourse is to get a tune/catless DP of my own and then revisit the track. I don't have an opinion either way on which tune is the best, but I may opt for a different brand to see what, if any difference, there is between the various tunes.
I don't have an overlay of my friends new tune on a dyno... my apologies for that. It would be interesting to see the area under the curve.
At the track, the EuroCharged Tune works, plain and simple.
Perhaps Eurocharged can post up a sample dyno plot of their tune?
I hope this helps and stimulates further discussion...
Are you guys gonna dyno again side by side with tune on his? I’m no expert but seems like there should be more than 3/10 gain based on claimed tuned power increases. BTW - Video won’t play for me so cant visually see difference.
Are you guys gonna dyno again side by side with tune on his? I’m no expert but seems like there should be more than 3/10 gain based on claimed tuned power increases. BTW - Video won’t play for me so cant visually see difference.
Sorry about the video.. I'm guessing its the codec. I'll try and edit the original post with a video that works...
3/10th improvement in the world of quarter mile from just a tune and catless DP is HUGE! I can't think of any other single performance mod that brings that kind of performance enhancement for the money.
Here's my thoughts on stated performance claims... others may have different viewpoints. I'm fine either way, but it helps to put things in perspective... hopefully my attempt at an explanation makes sense..
See below a graph of a stock tune overlaid with a EC stage 2 tune, apologies for the two different HP/TQ scales... it complicates things...but beggars can't be choosers
Stock vs EC Stg 2
When tuners are quoting performance increases they will reference the maximum difference in horsepower and torque between a baseline stock tune and their brand of performance. People are always looking for maximum HP/TQ numbers, and this helps sell product.
With the above graphic as reference, it shows a maximum differential in torque at around 3500 rpm's, with the differential over stock being 799 TQ versus 623 TQ at that RPM range, or 176 TQ! That's massive!. You will also notice however that as you progress through the rpm range, the differential between Tuned TQ and Factory TQ starts to diminish. By the time you are at 5000 rpm's the difference is only approximately 635 TQ tuned vs 610 TQ stock, or only a 25 TQ increase, not such a huge difference now.
When looking at the difference in Horsepower... the maximum differential occurs around the 4800 RPM mark, 622HP vs 573 HP. As before, when you advance through the Rev range, the differential between stock HP and tuned HP diminishes. At the 5500 rpm mark, the difference in HP is only approximately 30 HP more.
When we are at the quarter mile, when we launch off the line we are in the lower part of the power band, where the difference is greatest, and where my friends tuned car gets the jump on me. As we advance through the RPM range and keep shifting into successive higher gears, the gearing places the car's RPM on gear change higher up the rpm where the performance differential is less. It is for this reason that my friend gets the jump on me at the start and is able to pull out in front immediately, but as we advance down the quarter we become very similar in performance and he isn't able to really pull on me.
Excluding all the lower end performance enhancement, look at the graph in the 5000 rpm to 6000 rpm range and you'll see how close they are in performance across that rev range, the range we spend the majority of the time in when running down the track at WOT.
The Quarter Mile time improvement of 0.3 seconds comes due to the gobs of additional TQ available in the lower gears, while the subtle increase in trap speed comes from the additional power the car is exposed to on successive gear changes in the higher RPM's. When running WOT, the car never sees the maximum TQ beyond the lower gears and only benefits from a slight increase in HP in the upper RPM range.
Fortunately I don't normally drive WOT from stop light to stop light, and spend the majority of my time in the 2.5K to 3.5K rev range. Your driving style may differ.
On the street this TQ/power curve really comes into its own. For around town there will be a very noticeable improvement in performance in the 2.5K to 3.5K rpm range.
When looking for a tune that is usable on the street, people should spend less time worrying about max HP/TQ numbers and look at the area under the curve between the two lines to give a true indication of performance enhancement.
Sorry if I'm coming across as being pedantic, and I've probably just spent 30 minutes trying to explain something you already know, but I'm trying to make this thread as informative as I can to those members new to this arena, and using these questions as an opportunity to educate others.
Cheers.
Last edited by brutus_tx; 08-03-2018 at 01:22 PM.
Reason: fix typo
Ive seen cars trap 124-126 with canned renntech tunes but I can't say they ran in 94F temps
Track temps have everything to do with it!
I'm just happy we are still in the 11's.
When it becomes cooler we plan on going to the track again.
I fully expect to see a 0.2 to 0.3 second improvement in quarter mile times across the board for both cars just from the denser cooler air.
Have you guys used VBOX? Done any 60-130 or 60-100 runs?
Peter
I have the VBOX, but finding the time to misbehave, and more importantly a place to safely do it is difficult for me.
I have the VBOX in the glove box and if the opportunity presents itself I'll use it.
Unfortunately my car is stock.
One interesting thing we found out recently... the VBOX will not work within AMG's equipped with the sound deadening glass... it blocks the GPS signal.
At our last outing I placed it in a friends Renntech tuned/HF Catted 2018 E63S to no avail... it wouldn't work.
That sucked too, because he ran an 11.1 at 123 against a friends 11.0 at 126 Huracan.
Last edited by brutus_tx; 08-03-2018 at 01:38 PM.
Reason: typo
Sorry about the video.. I'm guessing its the codec. I'll try and edit the original post with a video that works...
3/10th improvement in the world of quarter mile from just a tune and catless DP is HUGE! I can't think of any other single performance mod that brings that kind of performance enhancement for the money.
Here's my thoughts on stated performance claims... others may have different viewpoints. I'm fine either way, but it helps to put things in perspective... hopefully my attempt at an explanation makes sense..
See below a graph of a stock tune overlaid with a EC stage 2 tune, apologies for the two different HP/TQ scales... it complicates things...but beggars can't be choosers
Stock vs EC Stg 2
When tuners are quoting performance increases they will reference the maximum difference in horsepower and torque between a baseline stock tune and their brand of performance. People are always looking for maximum HP/TQ numbers, and this helps sell product.
With the above graphic as reference, it shows a maximum differential in torque at around 3500 rpm's, with the differential over stock being 799 TQ versus 623 TQ at that RPM range, or 176 TQ! That's massive!. You will also notice however that as you progress through the rpm range, the differential between Tuned TQ and Factory TQ starts to diminish. By the time you are at 5000 rpm's the difference is only approximately 635 TQ tuned vs 610 TQ stock, or only a 25 TQ increase, not such a huge difference now.
When looking at the difference in Horsepower... the maximum differential occurs around the 4800 RPM mark, 622HP vs 573 HP. As before, when you advance through the Rev range, the differential between stock HP and tuned HP diminishes. At the 5500 rpm mark, the difference in HP is only approximately 30 HP more.
When we are at the quarter mile, when we launch off the line we are in the lower part of the power band, where the difference is greatest, and where my friends tuned car gets the jump on me. As we advance through the RPM range and keep shifting into successive higher gears, the gearing places the car's RPM on gear change higher up the rpm where the performance differential is less. It is for this reason that my friend gets the jump on me at the start and is able to pull out in front immediately, but as we advance down the quarter we become very similar in performance and he isn't able to really pull on me.
Excluding all the lower end performance enhancement, look at the graph in the 5000 rpm to 6000 rpm range and you'll see how close they are in performance across that rev range, the range we spend the majority of the time in when running down the track at WOT.
The Quarter Mile time improvement of 0.3 seconds comes due to the gobs of additional TQ available in the lower gears, while the subtle increase in trap speed comes from the additional power the car is exposed to on successive gear changes in the higher RPM's. When running WOT, the car never sees the maximum TQ beyond the lower gears and only benefits from a slight increase in HP in the upper RPM range.
Fortunately I don't normally drive WOT from stop light to stop light, and spend the majority of my time in the 2.5K to 3.5K rev range. Your driving style may differ.
On the street this TQ/power curve really comes into its own. For around town there will be a very noticeable improvement in performance in the 2.5K to 3.5K rpm range.
When looking for a tune that is usable on the street, people should spend less time worrying about max HP/TQ numbers and look at the area under the curve between the two lines to give a true indication of performance enhancement.
Sorry if I'm coming across as being pedantic, and I've probably just spent 30 minutes trying to explain something you already know, but I'm trying to make this thread as informative as I can to those members new to this arena, and using these questions as an opportunity to educate others.
Cheers.
That makes a lot of sense. Is there a tune out there where the torque and HP does not fall down to Stock numbers? I thought all tunes are higher in all torque level and doesn’t drop off. Notes taken before getting your car tune should ask for the tuning shop to provide a graph to see if that meets your driving habits. Certain tune may work better for others depending what you are looking for.
I think tuners are at the limits on the stock turbos in the higher RPM's. There only so much air the turbos can flow. Throwing more boost at them only goes so far before you are outside the efficiency of the turbos.
We have another car in the group with aftermarket turbos and he is trapping in the high 120's because his car's performance doesn't fall off in the higher RPMs like our cars with stock turbos do. His tune accounts for the improved turbo efficiency and can handle more fuelling/boost in the higher rpm's. I haven't seen his dyno, but I imagine his power profile is much more flat than our's is.
I'll see if I can get a screen shot of his dyno.
That makes a lot of sense. Is there a tune out there where the torque and HP does not fall down to Stock numbers? I thought all tunes are higher in all torque level and doesn’t drop off. Notes taken before getting your car tune should ask for the tuning shop to provide a graph to see if that meets your driving habits. Certain tune may work better for others depending what you are looking for.
Here's a screen shot off the Pure Turbo website, my apologies for the grainy image. They are actually using another friends dyno plot to market their product.
The great thing about this dyno is the fact that all the dyno plots posted in this thread, this one included, all came off the Eurocharged dyno jet dyno, so there is some consistency in the hardware used at least.
Horsepower gains aside, for the sake of this thread, this dyno shows how the power delivery is changed with the modification of the stock turbos.
Comparing this dyno to the stock dynos above shows that the power does not fall off in the higher rpms for this vehicle. The tuners are able to take advantage of the added efficiency of the new turbos higher in the RPM range.
At the track it results in much higher traps... around 127 mph in 93F temps, versus our 120 mph traps. The car is a beast for roll racing.
We are very fortunate here in Houston to have a very active AMG crowd who like modding their cars.
If you guys have any questions regarding any performance mods I can almost guarantee that we have someone who has probably done it previously and can provide an unbiased assessment for you.
Brutus_TX can you provide more information on the RT car you showed that had an 11.1 1/4 ? Other than tune and catless exhaust (which I suspect doesn't add too much), what other mods was he running? Pump gas, race gas, meth?
I am looking at various options to get my car into the low 11 range. Thanks
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by cij911
Bumping an old thread....
Brutus_TX can you provide more information on the RT car you showed that had an 11.1 1/4 ? Other than tune and catless exhaust (which I suspect doesn't add too much), what other mods was he running? Pump gas, race gas, meth?
I am looking at various options to get my car into the low 11 range. Thanks
That car was a w213, not a w212. However, stage 2 pump gas tune with catless DPs should easily give the W212 low 11s.
Looking at the graphs, I am surprised people are taking the cars above 5k. I wonder if manually shifting at 5k vs. auto to redline would show an improvement. ??
Any data on IAT, timing, boost, knock, etc. ? I see a lot of folks saying "I love my X tune", but very little data on what the different tunes are doing in terms of boost and timing and people logging. I wish more people were into the actual data side of the equation, as we would likely see even better tunes.
Looking at the graphs, I am surprised people are taking the cars above 5k. I wonder if manually shifting at 5k vs. auto to redline would show an improvement. ??
Any data on IAT, timing, boost, knock, etc. ? I see a lot of folks saying "I love my X tune", but very little data on what the different tunes are doing in terms of boost and timing and people logging. I wish more people were into the actual data side of the equation, as we would likely see even better tunes.
When you shift manually at 5k it drops you in a suboptimal part of the torque curve for the next gear
And to that point is the biggest disappointment I have with my car is the speed (or lack there of) when manually upshifting. If I pull the paddle at 5k under full throttle there is a 1 second delay before it actually shifts. Much much faster if I’m not paddle shifting.
The PDK in my fathers Panamera is sooo much better.
And to that point is the biggest disappointment I have with my car is the speed (or lack there of) when manually upshifting. If I pull the paddle at 5k under full throttle there is a 1 second delay before it actually shifts. Much much faster if I’m not paddle shifting.
The PDK in my fathers Panamera is sooo much better.
With the immediate response of the PDK, plus being able to hit the paddle multiple times quickly (upshift or downshift) and get the appropriate response from the transmission it is painful to drive the e63s in manual mode
What a difference a year makes. Since I started this thread we explored the tuning potential of the W212 platform in much greater detail.
My car has since run an 11.2 @ 128 mph running a EC "Race Only" tune, and my partner in crime has managed an 10.9 @ 128 mph with his EC stage 2 tune.
The key difference for me is the fact my car is still stock regarding intake/downpipes etc. The only other aftermarket mod I made was the inclusion of a water meth kit to aid in air charge cooling. It should be noted that my dyno tune does not use water meth in the equation. We turn it off for these runs to ensure the tune is safe at all times.
We've also purposely retarded torque in the lower RPM's tp give the ECU time to adapt, we've seen a great improvement in top speed and quarter mile times. My 60ft times haven't improved however.
We still don't know if this can be attributed to me sucking as a driver or it its hardware related for my car. If I could improve my 60ft, then I honestly think I could net a 11.0 flat out of this tune with nothing more than a software tune.
Jerry at EC is on the right track with this platform.
Here's the latest dyno plot of my "Race Only" tune. It is not the most aggressive tune as you'll note from the torque, but look at that top end power! Also note the boost rating. Making this power with lower boost helps with EGT's and all the issues elevated temps bring with it.
Race vs Stage 1 vs Stock tune
And for you draggy guys... note the DA and outside temps... not optimal by any extent...
EC Race tune
Finally, a 60-130 run showing the car making power on the top end... something the tunes from as recently as last year were not doing...
60-130 run
the car was quick before, but its on another level now when running on the highway.
because of the torque retard down low, I'm not experiencing any clutch issues... truthfully, I have't experience one limp mode event on the highway either. I'm really happy with the product. Jerry should be happy with the progression in tune he has accomplished over the last year.
I'm still not finished here. I know there is still more left in this engine to be extracted safely. The next year should be as much fun as the last year has been.
Last edited by brutus_tx; 07-22-2019 at 12:06 PM.
Reason: typo
What a difference a year makes. Since I started this thread we explored the tuning potential of the W212 platform in much greater detail.
My car has since run an 11.2 @ 128 mph running a EC "Race Only" tune, and my partner in crime has managed an 10.9 @ 128 mph with his EC stage 2 tune.
The key difference for me is the fact my car is still stock regarding intake/downpipes etc. The only other aftermarket mod I made was the inclusion of a water meth kit to aid in air charge cooling. It should be noted that my dyno tune does not use water meth in the equation. We turn it off for these runs to ensure the tune is safe at all times.
We've also purposely retarded torque in the lower RPM's tp give the ECU time to adapt, we've seen a great improvement in top speed and quarter mile times. My 60ft times haven't improved however.
We still don't know if this can be attributed to me sucking as a driver or it its hardware related for my car. If I could improve my 60ft, then I honestly think I could net a 11.0 flat out of this tune with nothing more than a software tune.
Jerry at EC is on the right track with this platform.
Here's the latest dyno plot of my "Race Only" tune. It is not the most aggressive tune as you'll note from the torque, but look at that top end power! Also note the boost rating. Making this power with lower boost helps with EGT's and all the issues elevated temps bring with it.
Race vs Stage 1 vs Stock tune
And for you draggy guys... note the DA and outside temps... not optimal by any extent...
EC Race tune
Finally, a 60-130 run showing the car making power on the top end... something the tunes from as recently as last year were not doing...
60-130 run
the car was quick before, but its on another level now when running on the highway.
because of the torque retard down low, I'm not experiencing any clutch issues... truthfully, I have't experience one limp mode event on the highway either. I'm really happy with the product. Jerry should be happy with the progression in tune he has accomplished over the last year.
I'm still not finished here. I know there is still more left in this engine to be extracted safely. The next year should be as much fun as the last year has been.
That's more like it!!
What meth kit are you using?
Not sure who has the red car.....but love the color! I'm guessing its a wrap.
I'm using the Weistec Water Meth kit with the dual 250cc nozzles. I'm set to spray at 4psi and max spray at 15psi. Like I said, I only use it for air charge cooling though. I doubt the amount of meth I'm spraying has much of an appreciable difference to the power being made. Please note that in the dyno above I was not using the meth kit in any of the runs.
The red car was a red satin wrap, which has since been removed. It's back to black now.
08-02-2018, 03:42 PM
