DIY comparison: E90 M3 vs. W212 E63S
03-27-2019, 02:51 PM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
DIY comparison: E90 M3 vs. W212 E63S
We picked up a 2015 E63S last fall and it just came due for some basic fluids/filter maintenance, which I was able to accomplish for less than half the dealer quote in about 1.5 hours' worth of work. That "half" number includes purchasing a mityvac!
I've had my E90M for 9 years now and since the free maintenance period/warranty ran out (and before) I have done all of my own maintenance on the car save one job - having the rod bearings replaced (google it if unaware - known issue with that engine) which I farmed out because I know my limits. I think these two cars provide an interesting point of reference, the online repository of DIY and diag knowledge for BMW's and the E9x M3 in particular is fantastic, but with so many fewer cars built, and even fewer people caring to DIY, the E63 doesn't have as big a following or knowledge base. And I see a lot of enthusiasts shopping for these on the used market now. So, I was at first thinking I wouldn't DIY the maintenance on this car, but after dealer quotes came back ranging from ridiculous to absurd, I looked around and found it's not that hard and this car is for the most part meant to be user-servicable for the simple stuff. So, on to the jobs I've done so far on this thing, compared to my E90M which I will never sell:
Wheels/tires - Same difficulty level, but you need a merc-specific jack puck - TPMS reset procedure is easy peasy for both - Wheels/tires are about the same sizes/cost if you're using 19's on the E90, but the E90 can also use 17's and 18's so in general it'll be a bit cheaper
Air filter change - Much more difficult on the W212 - two filters, two sensors to be careful of - takes about 50% longer so...15 minutes instead of 10 minutes? - ~$40 more expensive on the W212 if you're DIYing with OEM parts. Funny you need the same exact tools - a T25 torx and a flathead for the airboxes and hose clamps, lol
Oil and filter change - Much easier on the W212 - mityvac for 10 minutes or less and spill-free cartridge design vs. No dipstick plus BMW's cartridge design that hates you and wants oil all over your belts and your hands on the E90, and you have to get under the car and loosen/tighten two drain bolts (two sumps on the S65) and let it drain with the car roughly level-ish. THEN you have to let it warm up to make sure the level is close, which it never is, because NO DIPSTICK and schizoid level sensor, but you get in a groove and learn what to expect there and just add the same every time. About $60 cheaper on the W212 using OEM parts, mainly because the OE spec for oil on the S65 is so expensive (both take about 9 quarts and I use a Redline product, costs about the same as OEM) whereas the Mobil 1 0w40 euro car specced for the M157 is $50 at walmart for a couple 5-quart jugs
Rearend gear oil change - Same cost and difficulty on both. They even use the same diff oil, BMW specifies an optional friction modifier oil that is more expensive if you have diff noises (I wonder if they both use the one BMW has been using forever, a GKN-supplied visko-lok clutch-type viscous-puck-actuated diff, it's hard to tell if it's acting the same because 50% more power and 90% more torque + the front axle doing some of the pulling)
Change intervals around the same, I took a look at some other jobs on the car, like plugs and trans fluid (auto vs. auto of course, but mine's a manual) and they appear roughly cost/complexity comparable as well. The M157 puts ~1.5 cylinders in front of the front hub centerline instead of half a cylinder on the E90M, so if anything everything is MORE accessible on the E63 M157 than the E90M S65, which is jammed against the firewall.
Anyway, if you're comfortable with basic maintenance on a BMW M car I see no reason to be scared of one of these. It's our first Merc, so I'm pleasantly surprised.
Oh yeah, and that pretty carbon fiber piece the engine builder plaque is on? That thing adds half a pound to the car. Hooray for carbon parts that add weight :lol:
I've had my E90M for 9 years now and since the free maintenance period/warranty ran out (and before) I have done all of my own maintenance on the car save one job - having the rod bearings replaced (google it if unaware - known issue with that engine) which I farmed out because I know my limits. I think these two cars provide an interesting point of reference, the online repository of DIY and diag knowledge for BMW's and the E9x M3 in particular is fantastic, but with so many fewer cars built, and even fewer people caring to DIY, the E63 doesn't have as big a following or knowledge base. And I see a lot of enthusiasts shopping for these on the used market now. So, I was at first thinking I wouldn't DIY the maintenance on this car, but after dealer quotes came back ranging from ridiculous to absurd, I looked around and found it's not that hard and this car is for the most part meant to be user-servicable for the simple stuff. So, on to the jobs I've done so far on this thing, compared to my E90M which I will never sell:
Wheels/tires - Same difficulty level, but you need a merc-specific jack puck - TPMS reset procedure is easy peasy for both - Wheels/tires are about the same sizes/cost if you're using 19's on the E90, but the E90 can also use 17's and 18's so in general it'll be a bit cheaper
Air filter change - Much more difficult on the W212 - two filters, two sensors to be careful of - takes about 50% longer so...15 minutes instead of 10 minutes? - ~$40 more expensive on the W212 if you're DIYing with OEM parts. Funny you need the same exact tools - a T25 torx and a flathead for the airboxes and hose clamps, lol
Oil and filter change - Much easier on the W212 - mityvac for 10 minutes or less and spill-free cartridge design vs. No dipstick plus BMW's cartridge design that hates you and wants oil all over your belts and your hands on the E90, and you have to get under the car and loosen/tighten two drain bolts (two sumps on the S65) and let it drain with the car roughly level-ish. THEN you have to let it warm up to make sure the level is close, which it never is, because NO DIPSTICK and schizoid level sensor, but you get in a groove and learn what to expect there and just add the same every time. About $60 cheaper on the W212 using OEM parts, mainly because the OE spec for oil on the S65 is so expensive (both take about 9 quarts and I use a Redline product, costs about the same as OEM) whereas the Mobil 1 0w40 euro car specced for the M157 is $50 at walmart for a couple 5-quart jugs
Rearend gear oil change - Same cost and difficulty on both. They even use the same diff oil, BMW specifies an optional friction modifier oil that is more expensive if you have diff noises (I wonder if they both use the one BMW has been using forever, a GKN-supplied visko-lok clutch-type viscous-puck-actuated diff, it's hard to tell if it's acting the same because 50% more power and 90% more torque + the front axle doing some of the pulling)
Change intervals around the same, I took a look at some other jobs on the car, like plugs and trans fluid (auto vs. auto of course, but mine's a manual) and they appear roughly cost/complexity comparable as well. The M157 puts ~1.5 cylinders in front of the front hub centerline instead of half a cylinder on the E90M, so if anything everything is MORE accessible on the E63 M157 than the E90M S65, which is jammed against the firewall.
Anyway, if you're comfortable with basic maintenance on a BMW M car I see no reason to be scared of one of these. It's our first Merc, so I'm pleasantly surprised.
Oh yeah, and that pretty carbon fiber piece the engine builder plaque is on? That thing adds half a pound to the car. Hooray for carbon parts that add weight :lol:
Last edited by Richbot; 03-27-2019 at 03:08 PM.
03-27-2019, 06:33 PM
#2
MBWorld Fanatic!
We picked up a 2015 E63S last fall and it just came due for some basic fluids/filter maintenance, which I was able to accomplish for less than half the dealer quote in about 1.5 hours' worth of work. That "half" number includes purchasing a mityvac!
I've had my E90M for 9 years now and since the free maintenance period/warranty ran out (and before) I have done all of my own maintenance on the car save one job - having the rod bearings replaced (google it if unaware - known issue with that engine) which I farmed out because I know my limits. I think these two cars provide an interesting point of reference, the online repository of DIY and diag knowledge for BMW's and the E9x M3 in particular is fantastic, but with so many fewer cars built, and even fewer people caring to DIY, the E63 doesn't have as big a following or knowledge base. And I see a lot of enthusiasts shopping for these on the used market now. So, I was at first thinking I wouldn't DIY the maintenance on this car, but after dealer quotes came back ranging from ridiculous to absurd, I looked around and found it's not that hard and this car is for the most part meant to be user-servicable for the simple stuff. So, on to the jobs I've done so far on this thing, compared to my E90M which I will never sell:
Wheels/tires - Same difficulty level, but you need a merc-specific jack puck - TPMS reset procedure is easy peasy for both - Wheels/tires are about the same sizes/cost if you're using 19's on the E90, but the E90 can also use 17's and 18's so in general it'll be a bit cheaper
Air filter change - Much more difficult on the W212 - two filters, two sensors to be careful of - takes about 50% longer so...15 minutes instead of 10 minutes? - ~$40 more expensive on the W212 if you're DIYing with OEM parts. Funny you need the same exact tools - a T25 torx and a flathead for the airboxes and hose clamps, lol
Oil and filter change - Much easier on the W212 - mityvac for 10 minutes or less and spill-free cartridge design vs. No dipstick plus BMW's cartridge design that hates you and wants oil all over your belts and your hands on the E90, and you have to get under the car and loosen/tighten two drain bolts (two sumps on the S65) and let it drain with the car roughly level-ish. THEN you have to let it warm up to make sure the level is close, which it never is, because NO DIPSTICK and schizoid level sensor, but you get in a groove and learn what to expect there and just add the same every time. About $60 cheaper on the W212 using OEM parts, mainly because the OE spec for oil on the S65 is so expensive (both take about 9 quarts and I use a Redline product, costs about the same as OEM) whereas the Mobil 1 0w40 euro car specced for the M157 is $50 at walmart for a couple 5-quart jugs
Rearend gear oil change - Same cost and difficulty on both. They even use the same diff oil, BMW specifies an optional friction modifier oil that is more expensive if you have diff noises (I wonder if they both use the one BMW has been using forever, a GKN-supplied visko-lok clutch-type viscous-puck-actuated diff, it's hard to tell if it's acting the same because 50% more power and 90% more torque + the front axle doing some of the pulling)
Change intervals around the same, I took a look at some other jobs on the car, like plugs and trans fluid (auto vs. auto of course, but mine's a manual) and they appear roughly cost/complexity comparable as well. The M157 puts ~1.5 cylinders in front of the front hub centerline instead of half a cylinder on the E90M, so if anything everything is MORE accessible on the E63 M157 than the E90M S65, which is jammed against the firewall.
Anyway, if you're comfortable with basic maintenance on a BMW M car I see no reason to be scared of one of these. It's our first Merc, so I'm pleasantly surprised.
Oh yeah, and that pretty carbon fiber piece the engine builder plaque is on? That thing adds half a pound to the car. Hooray for carbon parts that add weight :lol:
I've had my E90M for 9 years now and since the free maintenance period/warranty ran out (and before) I have done all of my own maintenance on the car save one job - having the rod bearings replaced (google it if unaware - known issue with that engine) which I farmed out because I know my limits. I think these two cars provide an interesting point of reference, the online repository of DIY and diag knowledge for BMW's and the E9x M3 in particular is fantastic, but with so many fewer cars built, and even fewer people caring to DIY, the E63 doesn't have as big a following or knowledge base. And I see a lot of enthusiasts shopping for these on the used market now. So, I was at first thinking I wouldn't DIY the maintenance on this car, but after dealer quotes came back ranging from ridiculous to absurd, I looked around and found it's not that hard and this car is for the most part meant to be user-servicable for the simple stuff. So, on to the jobs I've done so far on this thing, compared to my E90M which I will never sell:
Wheels/tires - Same difficulty level, but you need a merc-specific jack puck - TPMS reset procedure is easy peasy for both - Wheels/tires are about the same sizes/cost if you're using 19's on the E90, but the E90 can also use 17's and 18's so in general it'll be a bit cheaper
Air filter change - Much more difficult on the W212 - two filters, two sensors to be careful of - takes about 50% longer so...15 minutes instead of 10 minutes? - ~$40 more expensive on the W212 if you're DIYing with OEM parts. Funny you need the same exact tools - a T25 torx and a flathead for the airboxes and hose clamps, lol
Oil and filter change - Much easier on the W212 - mityvac for 10 minutes or less and spill-free cartridge design vs. No dipstick plus BMW's cartridge design that hates you and wants oil all over your belts and your hands on the E90, and you have to get under the car and loosen/tighten two drain bolts (two sumps on the S65) and let it drain with the car roughly level-ish. THEN you have to let it warm up to make sure the level is close, which it never is, because NO DIPSTICK and schizoid level sensor, but you get in a groove and learn what to expect there and just add the same every time. About $60 cheaper on the W212 using OEM parts, mainly because the OE spec for oil on the S65 is so expensive (both take about 9 quarts and I use a Redline product, costs about the same as OEM) whereas the Mobil 1 0w40 euro car specced for the M157 is $50 at walmart for a couple 5-quart jugs
Rearend gear oil change - Same cost and difficulty on both. They even use the same diff oil, BMW specifies an optional friction modifier oil that is more expensive if you have diff noises (I wonder if they both use the one BMW has been using forever, a GKN-supplied visko-lok clutch-type viscous-puck-actuated diff, it's hard to tell if it's acting the same because 50% more power and 90% more torque + the front axle doing some of the pulling)
Change intervals around the same, I took a look at some other jobs on the car, like plugs and trans fluid (auto vs. auto of course, but mine's a manual) and they appear roughly cost/complexity comparable as well. The M157 puts ~1.5 cylinders in front of the front hub centerline instead of half a cylinder on the E90M, so if anything everything is MORE accessible on the E63 M157 than the E90M S65, which is jammed against the firewall.
Anyway, if you're comfortable with basic maintenance on a BMW M car I see no reason to be scared of one of these. It's our first Merc, so I'm pleasantly surprised.
Oh yeah, and that pretty carbon fiber piece the engine builder plaque is on? That thing adds half a pound to the car. Hooray for carbon parts that add weight :lol:
I actually have both the CF engine cover and the standard non-CF engine cover. I don't think there is an extra ~ 8 ounces there, but maybe. I might check that out. Bonus for you that you got a CF cover. It's about a $2k option believe it or not. The part alone from the stealer is ~$1400 ! I was lucky and my SA comped me a new CF cover because of a screwup on my other E63 (2011) that I have since sold. I think most guys don't have the CF cover as it's not really priced cost-effectively for what it is. However, I admit I do really like the look of it over my stock one.
03-29-2019, 12:18 PM
#3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I weighed it no kidding, there's a sound-deadening mat on the underside (some of which had adhesive failing already at 30.5k) and of course the clips and such -- just under 300 grams total on the kitchen scale (I realize how intensely stupid this discussion is btw, don't think I don't lol )
It is pretty I had to buy a carbon plenum for the M3 to keep it happy
It is pretty I had to buy a carbon plenum for the M3 to keep it happy
01-21-2024, 10:51 AM
#4
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Update: I remain appreciative of how relatively DIY-friendly this car is on the basics. We haven't piled a ton of miles on it (it's slowly turning into one of the lower-mileage examples around), but it's needed plenty of routine stuff like fluids and brakes, and other than Brembo's stupid bridge/pin retainer design that I hate with the burning heat of a thousand suns compared to all other fixed calipers I've worked on, it's so simple. Just did wipers and a main battery and the way everything is designed to be easily maintained it's just a cut above my other cars.
And it's amazing how it just...works despite being this crazy expensive powerful complicated thing. Other than the stupid CPO policy of replacing one ignition coil at a time due to misfire codes meaning we needed to go back 5 times as each coil failed on its own schedule (If I was out of warranty I would have just changed all of them at once because I know better than to trust the other 7 once one is throwing a code, but CPO reimbursement doesn't allow the dealer to do the needful) it's been rock solid. CPO ran out in August '23 so this car is now 100% DIY 100% of the time.
And it's amazing how it just...works despite being this crazy expensive powerful complicated thing. Other than the stupid CPO policy of replacing one ignition coil at a time due to misfire codes meaning we needed to go back 5 times as each coil failed on its own schedule (If I was out of warranty I would have just changed all of them at once because I know better than to trust the other 7 once one is throwing a code, but CPO reimbursement doesn't allow the dealer to do the needful) it's been rock solid. CPO ran out in August '23 so this car is now 100% DIY 100% of the time.
Last edited by Richbot; 01-21-2024 at 10:58 AM.
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