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Are you guys running step colder spark plugs gapped at 0.022 or oem plugs? This will help others who are running custom tunes or even s2 tunes from thinking extra hard if colder plugs are needed to achieve peak power safetly with what ever setup they currently have. As always thank you for exploring our plateform for the new timers and old timers, showing that these cars can be amazing machines when dialed in.
Last edited by Mojo20032004; 06-24-2021 at 08:52 AM.
I am running the same as Jesse and Thomas @ Blackboost.
NGK one step colder plugs PN# 97506 and gapped to 0.022 on the recommendation of Dave at EC ATX.... whom I trust emphatically when it comes to the M157 platform.
If he recommends it, know that it has been tested in the most strenuous of conditions over and over...
I am running the same as Jesse and Thomas @ Blackboost.
NGK one step colder plugs PN# 97506 and gapped to 0.022 on the recommendation of Dave at EC ATX.... whom I trust emphatically when it comes to the M157 platform.
If he recommends it, know that it has been tested in the most strenuous of conditions over and over...
Thank you for the update! I'm assuming indexing still applies here as well as oem torque specs?
Just to add to this thread to educate people on the use of dyno plots... when comparing the two tunes note this dyno comparison between the two cars...
This helps detail why Jesse is faster in the 60-130 the I am, even though he makes less "Peak HP" .
Note that while I make more peak power, Jesse makes more power after peak, all the way to redline.
Here's Jesse's 60-130 run...
compared to my 60-130 run...
just another metric to show that its not all about peak horsepower and torque, though they have a role to play, but rather the "area under the curve" is more important, and in this instance Jesse comes out on top.
In a side by side comparison, that subtle difference in power at red line allows Jesse to cover the distance needed to hit 130 mph 20 feet less than me. If we were roll racing I would have been walked by a car length.
This data was not collected at the same time for both cars, but it does provide a decent example of real world performance when compared against each other.
To be honest I've never had much luck trying to tune for meth. Others in my group have had great success with it.... me not so much.
I have the Weistec water meth system and I run Boost Juice... the recommended additive for that system.
I think it comes down to the placement of the nozzles and fluid used.
The only redeeming quality I find with the system is the addition of the Anti Surge Valve which helps with boost spikes at gear change and throttle lift off.
I may be too harsh on the setup, but I haven't seen the benefits from the system that the marketing jargon allude to.
I'm running twin 440cc jets. Whenever I tried dialing in the meth I could never seem to see improvement in power.
If anything I would sometimes see a reduction in performance. Whether through quenching or something else I could never know.
The only thing else it did was mask fuel delivery issues with my stock hardware. My fuel pumps were starting to weaken and I didn't know it until I turned off meth and the car started to suffer fuel cut.
For this 60-130 run meth was turned on, but it was set to start spraying at 12psi and the max boost was set to 32psi.
My tune only makes 18 psi, so effectively I set max spray to be 50% of potential spray, or 440cc total spray. WIth or without spraying I am not seeing any difference in power being made with my current tune.
Maybe I'll book a dyno session in the future to try and dial this setup in, but right now the only benefit I think I'm getting from it is a slight reduction in intake temps and some "scene points"
The little red LED that comes on when spraying is cool as well I guess.
Maybe I'm not being fair to Weistec, but of all the mods I've done to this car, this is the one that has shown the least amount of improvement.
Knowing what I know now, I would have just opted for just the ASV or the Renntech BOV equivalent.
There's a reason I didn't include water meth in the top list of hardware upgrades for the "Go Fast" Thread... only making it to number 7... https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...-part-two.html
Note my disclaimer in that thread as well...
Lifted from the thread..." #7. A water meth system. The recommended system is from ProMeth. The placement of the water meth nozzles are critical though. Testing of the systems that were sold by Weistec, Renntech and others which placed the nozzles in the charge pipes showed minimal gains for the money spent. Best performance has come from injecting the methanol near the air to water intercooler. This requires pulling the intercooler to make the modifications, meaning it’s more expensive to install."
i see your point, my experience with meth on other platform is that the placement of nozzle should be after intercooler cause the intercooler will heat the air cooled with meth if placed before intercooler, so on this engine like you said it requires pulling the intercooler and relocating the air intake temp sensor, i never retune for meth cause i use it for safety and lowering iat on high timing advance tunes, also on the dyno i never got an increase in hp cause the iat will not reach higher temp, but on high way runs and car to car pulling i always see improvements with water/meth.
Just to add to this thread to educate people on the use of dyno plots... when comparing the two tunes note this dyno comparison between the two cars...
This helps detail why Jesse is faster in the 60-130 the I am, even though he makes less "Peak HP" .
Note that while I make more peak power, Jesse makes more power after peak, all the way to redline.
Here's Jesse's 60-130 run...
compared to my 60-130 run...
just another metric to show that its not all about peak horsepower and torque, though they have a role to play, but rather the "area under the curve" is more important, and in this instance Jesse comes out on top.
In a side by side comparison, that subtle difference in power at red line allows Jesse to cover the distance needed to hit 130 mph 20 feet less than me. If we were roll racing I would have been walked by a car length.
This data was not collected at the same time for both cars, but it does provide a decent example of real world performance when compared against each other.
It's easy to make that mistake about the distance shown on the 60-130 runs ... I thought that at first also. However, the important thing to compare to put it in relation to a roll race is how far you both drove if you drove for the same amount of time. Your car went 1025 ft in 7.04s. Jesse's car went 1005 ft in 6.90s. So the question is: in that extra 0.14s, how far did Jesse's car go (in feet)? It looks like it would take about 0.14s for him to go from 130mph to 131mph. So he averaged about 130.5mph in the 0.14s. 130.5mph = 191fps ... in 0.14s he would have actually traveled 27ft. So the answer is he would have went 1032 ft in 7.04s.
So instead of 20 feet ahead of you, it's actually only 7 feet.
Originally Posted by brutus_tx
For this 60-130 run meth was turned on, but it was set to start spraying at 12psi and the max boost was set to 32psi.
My tune only makes 18 psi, so effectively I set max spray to be 50% of potential spray, or 440cc total spray. WIth or without spraying I am not seeing any difference in power being made with my current tune.
For a linear progression, you are only spraying 30% = (18-12)/(32-12). If you wanted to spray 50% of potential, you could set 100% spray boost level to 24%. (18-12)/(24-12)
It's easy to make that mistake about the distance shown on the 60-130 runs ... I thought that at first also. However, the important thing to compare to put it in relation to a roll race is how far you both drove if you drove for the same amount of time. Your car went 1025 ft in 7.04s. Jesse's car went 1005 ft in 6.90s. So the question is: in that extra 0.14s, how far did Jesse's car go (in feet)? It looks like it would take about 0.14s for him to go from 130mph to 131mph. So he averaged about 130.5mph in the 0.14s. 130.5mph = 191fps ... in 0.14s he would have actually traveled 27ft. So the answer is he would have went 1032 ft in 7.04s.
So instead of 20 feet ahead of you, it's actually only 7 feet.
For a linear progression, you are only spraying 30% = (18-12)/(32-12). If you wanted to spray 50% of potential, you could set 100% spray boost level to 24%. (18-12)/(24-12)
Bill, thank you for the detailed explanations. Truthfully I never put much thought into it, but this helps immensely.
06-23-2021, 11:58 AM
