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I think N.A. gas blends are partially to blame for some of the pre-ignition/detonation issues that seems to be happening to some of the higher compression/high output 4 cylinders such as the M274. Its happening across all brands (Toyota, Subaru etc.) not just Mercedes.
And we're not even talking about Ethanol issues either I believe testing of gas after a catastrophic engine failure might reveal some interesting results....
I think the key takeaway here should be don't get caught up in pictures, but rather rely on a proper leak down test for analysis. I think it's also unrealistic to expect an engine that is run hard, puts out those kind of HP numbers, coupled with hot tunes, relatively high compression (10:1) and north American gas blends to live for 100,000+ miles.
That would be a stretch for coated aluminum cylinder walls living with high cylinder pressures.
Good food for thought. Owning the M278 and M157 and expecting more than 100k+ miles of service seems like misplaced optimism, is this the point you are making?
Good food for thought. Owning the M278 and M157 and expecting more than 100k+ miles of service seems like misplaced optimism, is this the point you are making?
The point I'm making is it's a candle, the hotter you burn the wick the quicker you're going to run out of wax.
Plenty of M157/M278's are making it past 100k, but they probably aren't being raced or beaten hard and are pretty well maintained.
But also, were extracting a lot of power and efficiency from these engines. I doubt they are going to be in the same league as say, an M120.
Also a lot less margin for error, things such as the oil wicking issues of the cam sensors can create catastrophic chain reactions....
Last edited by crconsulting; 12-20-2022 at 09:56 PM.
i just watch enought tasos videos to keep me from tuning my car. Had it for a 11 yrs now and no tune. 91 k miles
Its fast enough and living where i do there arent any open areas to drive that fast anyways.... its my daily and i need to make surei t stays that way
Originally Posted by enginedestroyer;[url=tel:8418661
8418661[/url]]I posted this a few days ago in another thread I thought maybe a separate thread might be better;
I have a Mercedes m157 engine (5.5liter bi-turbo) in my short commute, daily driven ride. I bought the car with 50k miles with fresh dealer oil. at 55k i changed the oil and put a cheapo boroscope into cyl 5 (known to be the first cylinder to show wear)
and as you can see there is some minor scuffing.(1st image at 50k, 2nd image at 55k) At 55k (1 year later) I did a 2nd oil change. again I did the boroscope and got the 2nd image with notably more piston scuff. I was running Liqui Molly 5w40 leichtlauf. I also ran a mild tune for 4k of the 5k miles. I've now pulled the tune and am sending a sample to blackstone. I'm not looking for magic but if an additive could slow down the rate of damage I'd like to try. I'm interested in the Liqui-moly Ceratec or MoS2. I'm in a colder climate (ny state) and have read that some suspect (mostly porsche owners that seem to be having a cylinder scoring problem) that when cold, the piston warms and expands faster than the aluminum cylinder and can cause this. I've also found more general piston/cylinder info suggesting this is a lubrication issue. I'd welcome any thoughts...Thanks for reading!
I had scoped my 2016 with about 30k miles and found very similar marks. Dealer said thats normal, shop foreman also confirmed. Car still had factory warranty.
When you bend a rod thats when scoring starts usually and it will be evident in your oil changes. You will start finding small metallic pieces in the oil, check the bottom of the container after an oil change. Also take the oil filter and look thru it.
I had a slightly bent rod in my bone stock E63S, thats how i know. But i use to drive it like its stolen, literally. Frequent launches and high speed pulls regardless of the ambient temps. Never had a misfire or a check light, oil changes every 1500-2500 miles, 5w40 +1 ceratec. No oil consumption, ever. I later tuned it anyways and was still fine for another 5k miles, Eurochaged stage 1. Then bought a lower mileage 2015.
Meanwhile my friends S63TU was toast with mild to hard driving. It was consuming like 2 qts every 500 miles. LOL Less than 20k miles on the odo, only a muffler delete.
I strongly believe M157 would be a very solid Stage 2 car with upgraded connecting rods alone + proper maintenance, according to climate and driving style.
Timm- thanks for your info. I'm the OP and I now have 66k and run ceretec and do analysis every change (5k) as well as cut apart my filter and inspect for glitter. So far cylinder 5 bore looks about the same but it's worrying to hear that bone stock cars can bend rods, I've been rolling the dice a bit running a stage 1 tune, but mostly because I'm coming from a non-s car and wanted to pick up some easy torque. Where I live in Northern NJ there isn't much open road these days...I'm basically puttering around at 2000rpm 99 percent of the time...
Timm- thanks for your info. I'm the OP and I now have 66k and run ceretec and do analysis every change (5k) as well as cut apart my filter and inspect for glitter. So far cylinder 5 bore looks about the same but it's worrying to hear that bone stock cars can bend rods, I've been rolling the dice a bit running a stage 1 tune, but mostly because I'm coming from a non-s car and wanted to pick up some easy torque. Where I live in Northern NJ there isn't much open road these days...I'm basically puttering around at 2000rpm 99 percent of the time...
No problem, glad your car is doing good. I wouldn't worry much in your case. You sound very reasonable on how you use your car. My friend was abusing a stage 2 2012 E63 p30 and it lasted him up to 80k miles. First his diff came apart then trans output-shaft.
Also heres a photo for reference of the shavings i was finding. Some were magnetic, most not.
Fingers crossed! and it's true, I am a reasonable user most of the time...until someone want's to race, then I'm an idiot.... but I did beat a new m5 not too long ago from 60-130....on a closed course . Not sure if it was worth risking potential engine destruction but someone had to show this guy what a wagon can do!
8843673[/url]]Fingers crossed! and it's true, I am a reasonable user most of the time...until someone want's to race, then I'm an idiot.... but I did beat a new m5 not too long ago from 60-130....on a closed course . Not sure if it was worth risking potential engine destruction but someone had to show this guy what a wagon can do!
Oh if bimmer boys want some action then all rules are off haha
One pull is nothing from a roll, you want to avoid pushing it when heat soaked and back to back pulls. Rewire your intercooler pump to stay always on, that will be very beneficial for IATs. Theres a thread showing how if you haven't already done it.
I posted this a few days ago in another thread I thought maybe a separate thread might be better;
I have a Mercedes m157 engine (5.5liter bi-turbo) in my short commute, daily driven ride. I bought the car with 50k miles with fresh dealer oil. at 55k i changed the oil and put a cheapo boroscope into cyl 5 (known to be the first cylinder to show wear)
and as you can see there is some minor scuffing.(1st image at 50k, 2nd image at 55k) At 55k (1 year later) I did a 2nd oil change. again I did the boroscope and got the 2nd image with notably more piston scuff. I was running Liqui Molly 5w40 leichtlauf. I also ran a mild tune for 4k of the 5k miles. I've now pulled the tune and am sending a sample to blackstone. I'm not looking for magic but if an additive could slow down the rate of damage I'd like to try. I'm interested in the Liqui-moly Ceratec or MoS2. I'm in a colder climate (ny state) and have read that some suspect (mostly porsche owners that seem to be having a cylinder scoring problem) that when cold, the piston warms and expands faster than the aluminum cylinder and can cause this. I've also found more general piston/cylinder info suggesting this is a lubrication issue. I'd welcome any thoughts...Thanks for reading!
I just joined up on this forum to research information for my 70 300SEL 6.3, but it seems like I can't get away from posts about bore scoring.
If any of you are Porsche owners and on any of the Porsche forums, you'll find countless posts about this topic. I've devoted years to researching this topic and developing solutions for Porsche engines with cylinder bore scoring. That said, there are many contributing factors - changes to manufacturing methods as well as lubricant and fuel quality all have an effect on cylinder bore scoring. Vehicles driven in colder climates also seem to be more likely to suffer from this issue as mentioned by the OP.
That said, many of the things we do to help prevent bore scoring in Porsche engines would directly apply to any Mercedes with an Alusil engine block:
Understanding the wear mechanism for engines with alusil blocks is the first step. These engines need an oil with high levels of moly friction modifiers. ZDDP can help for sure, but it can't bind to the aluminum and silicon particles that make up the Alusil cylinder walls, but moly can.
Adding Ceratec would help - this basically boosts the moly levels in the oil, however the use of thinner oils reduces the HTHS viscosity of the oil which is good for fuel economy but bad for protecting the engine. The problem we have with Porsche engines is that the factory approved A40 and C40 oils have little to no moly. You have to in essence look to the aftermarket to find a better oil for these engines. That's why we recommend Driven DT40 or DI40 to our Porsche customers. I've used Driven DI40 oil (for engines with direct fuel injection) in my S550 for years since they have very high levels of moly - the used oil analysis comes back perfect every time.
What you want to look for is increased silicon, aluminum, and iron levels in the oil - this will be the first signs of bore scoring, even before you have piston noise or increased oil consumption:
Used Oil Analysis results from an engine with cylinder bore scoring
I highly believe that shorter oil change intervals and better oils (ignoring manufacturer recommendations and not using a spec oil) is the first and easiest thing you can do to prevent this issue.
In the case of the early scoring reported by the OP, I'd recommend going to a slightly thicker oil that is formulated with increased ZDDP and moly. Normally, this would mean going from a 0w30 or 5w30 to a 5w40 or if running a 0w40 or 5w40, switching to a 5w50. The added viscosity will provide extra "cushion", but there is nothing that can reverse the cylinder bore scoring. We've had customers extend the life of their Porsche engine for years as long as it's caught early and they switched to Driven's oils.
A brief update on my situation: it's been a year and about 7500 miles since I posted the pics and started this thread. I've had 2 perfect blackstone reports (one from the time of my first post and one last month) and camera inspection shows no further cylinder wall scuffing. After the first good blackstone report I put my stage 1 tune back on. My car which now has 62k still amazingly burns no oil at all. I've been running liqui-moly ceratec since then. Not sure if it has been helpful but it's cheap insurance. I always make sure my oil is up to temp before loading up the engine. I don't drive it very hard but that's more a factor of living in congested northern NJ....not an open road to be found!!!
That's great to hear. The Porsche Cayenne crowd swear by Ceratec. Even if you use Liqui-moly's oils, you will still want to add Ceratec as their oils don't have much moly in them, even with moly in the name :-)
Hi Charles, thanks for the input and the links, I had come across the video a couple of years ago when I was doing my deep dive into cylinder scoring, super informative!
You guys are awesome. Thanks for putting potential problems into perspective. It seems like some people look for problems where none exist, then pass along 1 or 2 bad stories like it's happening all over the place. I've scoured the forums a bunch to research how many actual times people are having problems and it seems like these cars are super solid. I had a 2001 S600 V12. That car was NOT rock solid, ABC, turbo oil line, and assorted things went wrong, all under 60K miles. I'm glad those days are long gone.
Above is my recent Blackstone oil report from about 300 miles ago. This engine currently has 31k, a eurocharged s2 pump gas tune since 19k. I have been using liquid moly 5w40 since 15k and use ceratec every 3rd oil change. This is also on 3,000 mile oil changes (which many dispute is a waste and way to soon), but I am fine with it as my car see's about 5-7k miles per year. You can clearly see high levels of molybdenum in the oil from using the certac on the last oil change prior to this one.
Last edited by Mojo20032004; 10-17-2023 at 10:47 AM.
Above is my recent Blackstone oil report from about 300 miles ago. This engine currently has 31k, a eurocharged s2 pump gas tune. I have been using liquid moly 5w40 since 15k and use ceratec every 3rd oil change. This is also on 3,000 mile oil changes (which many dispute is a waste and way to soon), but I am fine with it as my car see's about 5-7k miles per year. You can clearly see high levels of molybdenum in the oil from using the certac on the last oil change prior to this one.
@Mojo20032004 nice to see your engine is heathy and good results of your Blackstone oil test. Quick question - did you order their kit here https://www.blackstone-labs.com/prod...ree-test-kits/ for just the oil analysis? For $35 bucks seems well worth it to have the analysis done and know how your oil and motor are performing.
@Mojo20032004 nice to see your engine is heathy and good results of your Blackstone oil test. Quick question - did you order their kit here https://www.blackstone-labs.com/prod...ree-test-kits/ for just the oil analysis? For $35 bucks seems well worth it to have the analysis done and know how your oil and motor are performing.
Correct. You order the free kit, arrives in 2-3 days, than you send in your oil to them along with cc information /or make a account. They are currently really busy and took me about 4wks or so to get results back.
Hello guys looking for tips and help on what could be done plz
had the mechanic get to inspect the cylinders and he said that Cylinder 1 had extreme scoring and Cylinder 2 had some scoring plz find the attachments
Car has 57k miles
Car now has weistec stage 1 tune and car had always had Renntech stage 1 I think since its bought from the dealer
always used Chevron 91octane
Hello guys looking for tips and help on what could be done plz
had the mechanic get to inspect the cylinders and he said that Cylinder 1 had extreme scoring and Cylinder 2 had some scoring plz find the attachments
Thanks In Advance..
Like it was mentioned in another thread, try to get better pictures, if they check out bad you really don't have many options. Sell car, buy a used motor, or build your engine. Not much can be done with cyclinder scoring
12-20-2022, 01:48 PM
I believe testing of gas after a catastrophic engine failure might reveal some interesting results....
. Not sure if it was worth risking potential engine destruction but someone had to show this guy what a wagon can do!
