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I went and looked at the C450 after work yesterday. It wasn’t bad. The power did feel better than I expected. I didn’t take a super long test drive since I didn’t want to waste a ton of the salesman’s time when I had zero intention of buying that particular car but it was more I wanted to sit in the car and see how the seats felt and the controls and such. It definitely had the familiar (and nicely similar to GM) layout I like about Mercedes and the seat felt pretty good, I was really worried about the bolsters being too tight because I’m overweight but they were fine. It is basically the same size as my W203, my shoulder is dead in the middle of the B pillar. I could get used to it again like I did before. The biggest issue I had was how creaky the interior was, it’s way worse than my SS. I will say this particular car had 7 owners so potentially not garage kept and had no window tint so maybe a garage kept car that had window tint to protect the interior since new would be in better shape. Overall I did like the car, but for me to own one it would need to be in much better shape. I think I should try and drive the high mileage E63 that nearby and that will give me the other end of what I’m considering and I can see what kind of shape the interior of that car is in. I just hate these little car lots who are never there and you have to work around their schedule.
I went and looked at the C450 after work yesterday. It wasn’t bad. The power did feel better than I expected. I didn’t take a super long test drive since I didn’t want to waste a ton of the salesman’s time when I had zero intention of buying that particular car but it was more I wanted to sit in the car and see how the seats felt and the controls and such. It definitely had the familiar (and nicely similar to GM) layout I like about Mercedes and the seat felt pretty good, I was really worried about the bolsters being too tight because I’m overweight but they were fine. It is basically the same size as my W203, my shoulder is dead in the middle of the B pillar. I could get used to it again like I did before. The biggest issue I had was how creaky the interior was, it’s way worse than my SS. I will say this particular car had 7 owners so potentially not garage kept and had no window tint so maybe a garage kept car that had window tint to protect the interior since new would be in better shape. Overall I did like the car, but for me to own one it would need to be in much better shape. I think I should try and drive the high mileage E63 that nearby and that will give me the other end of what I’m considering and I can see what kind of shape the interior of that car is in. I just hate these little car lots who are never there and you have to work around their schedule.
My family has had a few Fords and their failures tended to be either from poor design or cheap materials as in many new cars https://epicvin.com/blog/the-cheapes...to-buy-in-2023, or both. My guess is most domestics with the exception of Saturn or old Caddys probably were products of the accountants, not engineers, and competed by being priced lower than the Euros and Japanese. Perhaps your GM falls into that category.
My M278 and M157 were both fairly well-built with the exception of a few questionable plastic parts (turbo coolant lines). There are little nits here and there but big picture they're pretty reliable given the amount of HP they put out. Cost of ownership will be much more palatable if you can do your own maintenance. If the engine goes boom it'll be very, very expensive so most have 3rd party warranties for peace of mind.
You'll probably get a lot of biased responses here - no surprise - to go for it. But they are great cars that pull and sound amazing stock, and really rip with a tune. Just gotta be prepared to pay to play.
The same thing with my Volkswagen Jetta. Cheap materials and poor interior
Lol. I wasn't really concerned. I had zero intention of buying that car strictly because of the interior color. I wouldn't have been interested even if it had been the cleanest 1 owner car. I just wanted to see how the car felt, how I fit in it, and how the TT V6 felt.
I went and looked at the 105k mile 14 E63 a lunch yesterday and it was actually in much nicer cosmetic condition than I expected. I didn't drive it because I only had 20 minutes and was more interested just to see the condition of the car with the mileage. The console lid had a very light creak but otherwise it was much better than the C450. As much as I loved the blue paint, it has the same ugly almost white seats that C450 had so I couldn't consider it even for $32k they lowered the price to a few days ago. It looked like it had some oil leaks just looking under the hood, which isn't a surprise. Based on looking at that car, I think it would have to be an E but I don't know.
I was talking to a friend of mine, who likes German cars also, and he told me he doesn't think it is a good idea to get rid of the SS for an E63 of this age because of all the bells and whistles and just too much stuff to break. He thinks I'll be in the same boat as with the SS just different things, which was a main concern of mine. What has really worn me down with the SS is just the things that refuse to go right or be fixed and stay fixed. I can deal with maintenance and repairs but when I spend thousands of dollars to fix a problem and it doesn't fix it or it goes away and comes back worse a year later, that is just beyond frustrating. I can fix everyone else's car, but I can't fix this one. The parts availability is also another issue I have with the SS and from my past experience, the German brands don't discontinue parts like GM does. That may no longer be the case but a coworker of mine has mentioned that many times about how he has no problems getting parts for his older German cars. I'm basing my desire for this car on my experience with my C55, which was a pretty great car from an ownership view. I did go with the C class purposely so it had less things to break but that isn't the case any more with the new C class since it has the electronic suspension and all. The E still has more but not as much more as it did in 2005.
I’m really not that adverse to the “you gotta pay to play” and the expense of upkeep, I think it’s just the timing. Like I said in another thread, I'm tired of bleeding money and still not having the end result I wanted. So, I'm wanting another car that is equivalent but isn't going to cost me an arm and leg which probably isn't possible, especially since the E63 had a significantly higher price when new and repairs don't depreciate like the purchase price does.
I’ve wanted an E63 for a long time but maybe it just isn’t meant to be. I can’t afford anything newer to replace the SS that is equivalent (or better). The prices on cars these days is just insane to me anyway. The last two Mercedes I bought both had a full year of warranty left and it was nice to have that safety net before I was on my own. A 2-3 year old E63 will easily be double what the SS is worth.
I checked all 4 cam magnets before buying the car. All dry. Just now I replaced the air intake tubes (one was torn) and checked the cam position sensors. All 4 were oily. I did a set from FCP Euro for the lifetime warranty. If you stay on top of it I think this is probably not much of an issue.
Owning an AMG out of warranty can lead to significantly higher service costs compared to non-AMG vehicles. Goodwrench GM service centers do not offer $59.95 oil changes for AMG vehicles. If you have an older E63s model without the carbon ceramic upgrade, you might need to invest in new brakes. The cost of brakes for the W213 model at the MB service center can range from $7K to $9K, but you might find cheaper options with independent Mercedes mechanics who use the correct parts or by purchasing performance parts from vendors like FCP Euro. The expense of a $9K bill for new AMG brakes can be considered excessive. Therefore, if you choose to own an AMG, you should be prepared to pay for the premium AMG experience. Some enthusiasts believe that the performance upgrade justifies the price of ownership. The 2018-2020 pre-facelift E63s models are particularly sought after for their more aggressive exhaust note and harsher ride compared to the 2021 and final 2023 model years. Although a W212 E63 may be less expensive to purchase, it still offers competitive performance comparable to the 2014-2017 Chevy SS and provides a luxury experience that surpasses that of Cadillac.
To me DIY is the only way. I haven't done the math but I question people who can afford premium dealer service pricing on out of warranty AMG products. These people might be better off in a new one with a warranty, no?
To me DIY is the only way. I haven't done the math but I question people who can afford premium dealer service pricing on out of warranty AMG products. These people might be better off in a new one with a warranty, no?
A new one is $100k more then a used W212.
That’s a lot of out of warranty maintenance money…
I'm probably not getting an E63, at least not any time soon. I started seeing tons of people talking about the engine is only good for 150k miles when I saw people saying to make sure to get the compression checked in the PPI, which, to me, is insane because I've bought plenty of 150k mile vehicles that could easily go another 150k. I wouldn't buy an E63 with 150k, but I was still considering up to 100k if the condition was nice enough. So, between that and the oil in the wiring harness issue, I just don't think I'm interested any more. 99% of the work on this thing would be "DIY" because I'm a professional tech for a living but I don't really want a car I will always be worrying about some big cost item going bad like the wiring harness or a major engine failure. I was already nervous about the TT V8 since NA is usually more reliable so that is enough to sway my decision.
I built up a level of comfort after my dip into Euro/German/Mercedes (first time for all) with my 04 E55. Before that got totaled I bought my 07 S550 as a daily. Things were still working out. Had to replace my E55 and ended up with my 14 E63S. I will admit if I had read these doomsday posts BEFORE buying I may have made a different decision (this March). I agree, if even on stock tune and with good maintenance, 150k is sort of the average of what we can expect before having to replace the entire engine, that is completely unacceptable. My hope is that is actually not the case. I am full DIY, btw. There are a number of preventative things that seem to help longevity:
- I am running LiquiMoly MolyGen but it's unclear if this is really buying me anything. PO ran whatever the dealer has for 98k at ~10k intervals. So if that harmed the engine, that damage has already been done. Inside the oil fill is clean as a whistle. Do 5k intervals. Easier on timing chain and a POSSIBLE contributor to cylinder scoring (DI abrasive nano-particles, or at least small ones)
- Watch fuel pump duty cycle. Tasos talks about this. Obviously the goal is to avoid a lean condition. And it may be advisable to replace a pump that is wearing out before it fails.
- Keep the ignition system healthy. I have plugs and coils in a box ready to go. I am technically not due but just need to make the time. I suppose scoping the cylinders gives you some warning but realistically all you would be doing is selling the car before catastrophe, if you really believe we understand how this process works (i.e. how much scoring is "fatal" and what the timeline to failure actually is, vs running like that for 80k). I'd like to think an engine with relatively low oil consumption has at least a baseline level of good health.
- Watch injector adaptation values. I haven't looked into this much but plan to. Replace suspect injectors or replace them all?
- Walnut blast intake valves. It's costing power, smoothness and fuel economy. And stressing the valves/valve guides. Bad all the way around. It's on my list but no clue what my real plan is here.
- Keep an eye on wiring harness oil wicking. There are some areas that aren't as commonly discussed but the goal is to keep oil out of the ECU. It's an expensive item to replace, and can destroy the engine by using the incorrect parameters.
- Leave the stock engine tune. I am open to a TCU tune "someday."
- Blackstone UOA
- Don't romp on it until the oil is warmed up
- Monitor for coolant loss periodically and immediately investigate all unexplained losses.
These things aren't totally insane to watch for/correct for and I think they are real.
I built up a level of comfort after my dip into Euro/German/Mercedes (first time for all) with my 04 E55. Before that got totaled I bought my 07 S550 as a daily. Things were still working out. Had to replace my E55 and ended up with my 14 E63S. I will admit if I had read these doomsday posts BEFORE buying I may have made a different decision (this March). I agree, if even on stock tune and with good maintenance, 150k is sort of the average of what we can expect before having to replace the entire engine, that is completely unacceptable. My hope is that is actually not the case. I am full DIY, btw. There are a number of preventative things that seem to help longevity:
- I am running LiquiMoly MolyGen but it's unclear if this is really buying me anything. PO ran whatever the dealer has for 98k at ~10k intervals. So if that harmed the engine, that damage has already been done. Inside the oil fill is clean as a whistle.
- Watch fuel pump duty cycle. Tasos talks about this. Obviously the goal is to avoid a lean condition. And it may be advisable to replace a pump that is wearing out before it fails.
- Keep the ignition system healthy. I have plugs and coils in a box ready to go. I am technically not due but just need to make the time. I suppose scoping the cylinders gives you some warning but realistically all you would be doing is selling the car before catastrophe, if you really believe we understand how this process works (i.e. how much scoring is "fatal" and what the timeline to failure actually is, vs running like that for 80k). I'd like to think an engine with relatively low oil consumption has at least a baseline level of good health.
- Watch injector adaptation values. I haven't looked into this much but plan to. Replace suspect injectors or replace them all?
- Walnut blast intake valves. It's costing power, smoothness and fuel economy. And stressing the valves/valve guides. Bad all the way around. It's on my list but no clue what my real plan is here.
- Keep an eye on wiring harness oil wicking. There are some areas that aren't as commonly discussed but the goal is to keep oil out of the ECU. It's an expensive item to replace, and can destroy the engine by using the incorrect parameters.
- Leave the stock engine tune. I am open to a TCU tune "someday."
- Blackstone UOA
- Don't romp on it until the oil is warmed up
These things aren't totally insane to watch for/correct for and I think they are real.
It's not a bad list. I can never get a concrete answer on the walnut blasting and if it's required on this car.
Has anyone done it? Has anyone scoped the motor to see status?
Very good points in that list . I am going to do the pcv at 95k as it's very likely original . Fuel pump are we referring to the low pressure in tank ?
To me the list was "things that could prevent a lean condition, piston damage or cylinder scoring." I did not address the mystery seal behind the timing cover. But that's why I put UOA on the list. Keeping tabs on oil condition and contamination at the end of the 5k interval will probably catch a lot of latent issues before they become fatally obvious.
To me the list was "things that could prevent a lean condition, piston damage or cylinder scoring." I did not address the mystery seal behind the timing cover. But that's why I put UOA on the list. Keeping tabs on oil condition and contamination at the end of the 5k interval will probably catch a lot of latent issues before they become fatally obvious.
Figured on high pressure pump. For sure makes sense they're easy to swap out. Low cost considering what it can prevent. Assuming they're just plug & play. No coding or relearning like injector replacement.
I think mystery timing cover seal is production based pre 2015. Not 100% though.
With the HPFP you can actually monitor the duty cycle on a full power pull and determine if the pump is healthy. I'd have to go watch some Tasos videos to remember what values he said were expected. Of course, with a stock tune, I think this one goes lower on the list in terms of issues you need to prioritize. The issue is more for tuned applications, with some miles on the engine, where the pump may not provide adequate fuel flow. But I wanted to put it in my list anyway.
On the gasket/O-ring thing, mine is a 14 so I guess I have to worry about it. I plan to do a Blackstone UOA on this car when I am due for my next oil change.
I guess I should have added to monitor coolant levels in general. Unexplained coolant loss MUST be investigated immediately on these.
What a great thread - had to jump in w my first post here! I’m a long-time high performance DIY car guy but I only recently bought my first Mercedes.
In the past 5 years I’ve bought and sold many cars without losing my *** (crazy used car market makes this possible) and this includes several V8 Camaros, Mustang GTs and C7 Corvettes - all with manual transmissions. A 2015 Peacock Green Metallic SS M6 tranny was my favorite of the lot. What a car! The killer on it for me was the outdated infotainment system. I posted some details on the SS forum - and the admission of failure at the end - of how I tried to swap in a Pioneer 9” high-def screen and audio system to overcome my main objections. I achieved 90% of what I wanted to do, but…
Over the years I also serially bought BMW sedans and coupes - all with V8’s. The last few BMW’s (2019 M550i, 2015 650i x drive, 2017 X5M) were really something else. After realizing just how great the V8 and suspension was stock in each of these, I focused on getting all the options I wanted. HUD, Night Vision, B&W Diamond sound system, etc. I retrofitted the complete Night Vision system onto my 2015 650iX and coded it to work just fine. Not a project for the faint of heart. I also did the Dinan intercooler mod to achieve M-level power from the 4.4.V8.
Now to my latest car - a 2016 Mercedes S550 4Matic Coupe. I’ve followed the Mercedes V8 (and V12) cars for some time and it was hard for me to really understand the distinctions of what the various models offered, apart from a big V8 NA or twin-turbo engine. I thought I’d land on a 2014 C-Class coupe but then read that Mercedes dropped that in favor of introducing the S-Class coupe in 2015. Well, it took me no time to remind myself and appreciate that the S Class is the pinnacle of Mercedes models, so that was what I was after. So a Model C217 it would be, but S550 or AMG 63? I decided that for an older car, the non-AMG might be a better choice for this, my first Mercedes, as I have no perfect way to know just how it was treated or maintained beyond CarFax and dealer service records.
3AM out at the farm! Matte white with dew and moon glow…
In sunlight the Designo Cashmere Matte paint just stuns me - wow! There are no “dead buttons” in this one: options include the HUD, Night View Assist Plus, standard Burmester (not the 3D) audio
Coming to me with less than 30,000 miles, this car has everything I’ve come to want. I’ve not seen an S coupe with the Burmester 3D top-end audio, mainly in the S sedans. I like the sound quality in this “quiet-as-a-tomb” S class interior. However, some muddiness is there so this one will get all the speakers replaced with drop-in Focal flax drivers. Focal flax is not cheap but it has been my go-to in the last few aftermarket car stereo systems I’ve done. Then I’ll have a critical listen and decide whether or not to install a sub box in the trunk. I have one each of a JL Audio 10W3 and a 12W3 already in appropriate-volume boxes, either of which will fit in the trunk. I’ve done hundreds of car audio systems and this is almost trivial for this car with the battery and the Burmester amp both accessible behind the trunk panels. Pins 3/15 and 4/16 from the Burmester harness seem to send the signal out to each of the firewall-mounted front bass woofers. I’m not sure yet whether to tap just one of the those channels or tap both and sum them for my JBL Club 600 small form-factor sub amp, which handles speaker-level inputs and turns on automatically when it senses them just fine. In general, once you’re ready for an initial sound check post-installation, you turn down the factory bass settings a few notches thereby converting your “front bass” 8” drivers into mid-bass drivers, what they should be after all. You use a white noise noise generator and a proper “listening” device to play and measure the signal inside and also your ears to dial in just enough low bass from your dedicated subwoofer amp to achieve a true full range audio spectrum without boominess.
I also bought the VCI and recommended Lenovo 230 laptop per BenzNinja and I plan to code in several desireable features. As for engine tuning, RennTech, RaceChip and MW Mods (a forum sponsor here?) all seem to offer either OBD2 or piggyback tuning support. I have used HPTuners before on my GM V8 cars but there seems to be a dearth of tune repository or knowledge base support for the S550 non-AMG 4.6 V8 over at HP Tuners on their forum site.
Anyway, I’m glad to have finally joined the MB tri-star world and I look forward to driving and upgrading this ride.
03-15-2023, 07:34 AM
