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Reservoir level looks good in both engine and intercooler. Tuned run showed good boost and seemingly proper wastegate function, yet negative timing. Stock run showed low boost and poor wastegate function, yet seemingly normal timing.
I appreciate all the advice and suggestions. This has been way more of a pain in the *** than I ever could have imagined…
Yes that's a pain when you don't find whats the fault.
I would try the "pump mod " still to make really sure that the IC pump is running like it should. If it run good you can rule it also out.
The intercooler pump is supposed to come on at 45*C (113*F). It doesn't knock temps down immediately though, it pretty much just helps lower them from what they would otherwise be, and also lowers them when you've gotten off the gas. The pump mod helps remove the lag between when temps increase and when it actually starts help cooling.
If you do some kind of a run and then pull over quickly, with HPTuners showing the IATs over that threshold, you should be able to see the reservoir bubbling to verify that the pump is on. I did that before I had the pump mod done.
Jerry at Eurocharged said my tune was supposed to lower that threshold, but it never did. Maybe they had better luck doing that in the tune with the m113k cars.
kevm14: You sir, are probably correct. I do, however, have a PW setting for my IC pump that I can adjust. Now that I think about it, it probably doesn't do anything :p
I just looked at the tuned run and now you have more than twice as much retard compared to mine on gas, on my worst day. Remember, that killed my power, and you're way worse, so...
That and your IAT are even worse now, and since they go hand in hand... Are you sure your pump is working? I would hotwire the pump On so you can check that it's flowing. You can see it moving in the little tank behind your turbo solenoid. I made a picture of how to hotwire it. Plus, so I've read, the pumps only last ~4 years. So if yours hasn't been replaced, I'd assume the worst. It's an easy swap, and this is what I bought: https://fcpeuro.com/products/mercede...ump-0392022010
The motor mounts do cause vibes, both engine vibes you feel at idle and stronger vibes at speed because, apparently, it throws the driveline alignment off. It was very noticeable on my E350. It was random and sometimes it wouldn't stop, so I'd floor it for a sec and it would stop, usually. Weird, because it's such a teeny tiny bit of misalignment but I but I have no other explanation. Now my current cars mounts died and I have the same idle vibs but significantly less otherwise, but I can feel it and again it varies and loading it changes it...
It won't affect the idle though, that's all computer. Or some issue like an air leak and the computer is having issues controlling it. If it's only when cold then you can watch your Injector PW and throttle. If the O2's are working then you can look at those and your trims for clues. I would not immediately suspect the injectors, but maybe, if one or more is kinda clogged.
I had a similar issue with mine but it was a setting in the tune that I shouldn't have touched :o
Also, my MAP is ~3.9 at idle. Not sure if 5 is normal for your engine or not? I would've assumed you'd have better vacuum than me, assuming we have the same throttle body, which I don't know. I'm just thinking along the lines of possible intake leak, which can potentially upset idle, and cost you power.
Found it. The hotwire trick. Where it says "Ground to actuate relay", I simply ran a thin wire to some random screw on the body. Then you turn the Ign On, eng Off, and both listen for and feel the pump itself, and check the water flow, which I take the cap off and look-c inside. The pump is on the starboard bottom corner of the radiator and the relay is on a little bracket between the headlight and radiator. I assume your relay is in the same spot as mine. I can take a pix if you need.
To replace the pump I just lifted the front of the car up ~6" and reached up in there. It was easy. I pinched the hoses with needle nose Vice-Grips so it didn't bleed out all over me.
I take notes on IAT, which usually I only do in the heat of summer, and the highest # I have is 122F under load. Sure it can shoot up to 150 idling on hot asphalt while the intake tubes cook, but the sec I get air flow and water it drops like a rock to normal temp, then climbs normally.
Below aren't great examples because they're short, but they were recent and all around 12-1pm in the summer and it shows how slow it climbs for me:
85-119 IAT 96-106
100 to 130mph IAT 87-102
85-106 IAT 112-116 <this was today, and it was pretty frikkin hot out.
I'm not sure at what temp IATs alone (no knock) would pull timing, but my car hit 160*F (before IC pump mod) without doing so.
The IC pump mod is a worthwhile thing to do (can get more power out of lower boost), but I seriously doubt that IATs are your issue.
Any thoughts on things to test based on the data logs I attached before? I might have to just go back to my G35 tuner from back in the day, I used APR for my Audi and it worked flawlessly but the car was a nightmare for reliability, especially being tuned. I do still have my free pass next week for Mercedes to look into anything so hoping someone knows a good test to do either before then or while I have it there, appointments are a pain to wait for.
If you don't want to test the pump then I'm out of ideas. You can lead a horse to water...
That last run was just so obvious. I can't imagine it's not the pump.
Your water temp is also really high. Your fan setting is no doubt the reason for the temp before the run, but spark timing is, imo, the reason it gets worse when you floor it. I don't think I've even hit 210 when floored, can't imagine 240. I'm sure you know that higher water temps make it ping more.
I attached a run from 0-130 in a 2013 C63 so you can see what a normal IAT looks like. Judging from that IAT it was very hot out, but watch how the temps drops when he floors it, and they barely increase after that. This is basically identical to mine on a day exceeding 100F.
I had an IC pump go out on my SL63, and I got a check engine light & code when it happened. Back in the day I had a Crossfire SRT6 (essentially an SLK32) supercharged, and when the IC pump went out there was no notification (just lost half its power), so at least the cars now seem to notify.
What "normal" IATs are depends on what boost you're running and how well the intercooler system is up to the task for it. What boost is that 2013 C63 running ?
If you don't want to test the pump then I'm out of ideas. You can lead a horse to water...
That last run was just so obvious. I can't imagine it's not the pump.
Your water temp is also really high. Your fan setting is no doubt the reason for the temp before the run, but spark timing is, imo, the reason it gets worse when you floor it. I don't think I've even hit 210 when floored, can't imagine 240. I'm sure you know that higher water temps make it ping more.
I attached a run from 0-130 in a 2013 C63 so you can see what a normal IAT looks like. Judging from that IAT it was very hot out, but watch how the temps drops when he floors it, and they barely increase after that. This is basically identical to mine on a day exceeding 100F.
It’s not that I won’t test it, it’s that I am not making that a conclusive answer. I have runs in stock before that reached higher temps than tuned and stock performed perfect. If the temperature is what is causing any type of loss in performance, it would be doing the same for stock as it does for tuned. The IAT issue doesn’t seem to match up or else I would have checked long ago, I’ve tested my temperatures before and it has always been around the same, no loss in performance in performance while in stock, yet temperatures get just as high.
I’m looking for as many variables as possible so I can either do small tests myself between work or have Mercedes take a look when I bring it in.
Mine was original when I changed it preventatively a month or two ago. Can't really say if the new (reman even from the dealer) pump is working any better. Maybe? I also did the pump mod.
Found it. The hotwire trick. Where it says "Ground to actuate relay", I simply ran a thin wire to some random screw on the body. Then you turn the Ign On, eng Off, and both listen for and feel the pump itself, and check the water flow, which I take the cap off and look-c inside. The pump is on the starboard bottom corner of the radiator and the relay is on a little bracket between the headlight and radiator. I assume your relay is in the same spot as mine. I can take a pix if you need.
To replace the pump I just lifted the front of the car up ~6" and reached up in there. It was easy. I pinched the hoses with needle nose Vice-Grips so it didn't bleed out all over me.
Not so easy on the S model E63 with that giant Pierburg!!
kevm14: I changed mine because I was worried that it might be the older style pump, and that it might not be working well. It was an 010 pump and working perfectly since changing it did nadda, but one less thing to worry about.
Tried the pump mod but I actually undid it because it didn't really make a difference, and it kept bugging me with codes about it. It did lower temps at no/low loads, which don't really matter, but not at high loads. And I thought about that short life span they have so I disconnected it.
I eyeballed the bigger pumps but after finding this chart I posted below I decided mine is fine. If I were to want more flow I'd just add a second one of these 010 pumps. Much better than pay for and battle a big pump.
Notice the flow of the 010 when referenced to the oem resistance dotted line. Pretty good considering it's size and price.
The specs on the Davies Craig 115 pump look nice but I had that pump once and I will never buy anything from them again. I get this pump, then after a lot of custom work to make it fit my application, the seal on the shaft leaked within an hour. So I returned it, got another, which leaked within an hour. They sent me yet another one, direct from AU and noted that it has a new improved seal and suggested that I was doing it wrong, I think too much pressure or some lame BS. Sure, my fault, because your pump is perfect, right? So to eliminate any possible issues, and I was sick of installing them, I installed the new on a long hose on it so it simply fed into itself. No pressure, no heat, just nice n easy flow. It leaked in less than an hour... I found out about the pump in a Hot Rod type magazine, which they used on a car and wrote about it. So I told them what happened and if theirs was still working. They said it leaked right after the testing they did for the article and they had to give up on it. I also gave up and took the loss, but told the world via reviews etc. Even if they have since fixed it, the F'ers knew about the problem and chose to sell it anyway, and suggest it was my fault!
SpecR: I was irritated with people in general when I replied last, so I apologize if I came across as a jerk. I should've waited to cool off before I posted, but I'm not wise enough to listen to my own advice.
I understand what you're saying, but even if something else is somehow causing those temps, I'd wonder how many hours are left on the pump. I'd ground it On and check for flow. Easy peezy pass/fail test that takes just a few minutes. I can't imagine it's good but only one way to find out.
Here's a vid of guy who changed his pump out, which was clearly dead based on his reaction to the new one. I doubt he knew about all the retard and what not that was happening, but he sure noticed when it was working.
~4:10 is when he discovered the power, which from his reaction he had never experienced before so I assume it was dead when he bought the car.
@Chevota pump that is on SpecR car (2016 E63 S model) is Pierburg CWA100-2. That pump wasn't on your graph. If that pump is working, it flow twice much that Bosch 010. Best pump really
Beat me to it. Ditto. CWA100-2, factory on the S models. It's super tight to change though.
I think that it wasn't so tight to change. Maybe we did it different way. Hard part was to get the right wiring and different brackets to fit when i upgrade Bosch 010 to CWA100-2. Still that CWA100 didn't run and I need help. Fortunately one skilled guy who is also in this forum help me out and pump runs great.
But now we are a long way from this topic..
Last edited by PekkaH; 07-16-2023 at 09:11 AM.
Reason: edit
General access was right there but there is no room at all to deal with removing the hoses from the long pump nipples. Actually even sliding the compression clamps off was difficult in the confined space. Plus starting the bracket bolt was a fight. Would have been easier if that bolt was a bit longer due to having to compress the rubber on the band.
I never saw that chart. I will add it to my collection. That CWA100-2 is certainly much thicker, but not bad considering the power it has. It's been ~2yrs since I changed my pump, and I considered the CWA100, but after looking at the place it fits I decided against it. So yes, I see what you mean now. I didn't know it was oem on the S models, "I assumed" they had the same as me. Does it even fit in the same spot as mine? Next to bottom right corner of radiator?
I've often wondered what gains it would have over my oem 010 pump. I figure once flow is kinda good enough it would be a sharp decline in returns. I'd first need to know if the 010 pump is in the kinda good enough zone or not? Seems like it is.
Something else I've often wondered about is water mist sprayed before the heat exchanger. I think it would work really well but I just don't have the time for experiments like I did when I was 20 something. Back then a concept to a working version would be a day. My friend did similar with his Dodge dually for towing up this one long grade. Not for boost but for water temps. Worked very well. For my truck I'd suck water into the intake, which worked extremely well. Overheating in the desert where it would not cool down in it's own, and so hot out that shutting it off would take hours to cool. But add water and 30 sec later I'm good to go.
I'm sure someone has tried spraying the exchanger, and maybe we'll get lucky and they'll see this and reply.
Haven’t been to Mercedes, service appointment got pushed to get into a loaner.
Just had a thought… my idle has been shaking a bit and seems to be getting progressively worse. Another thing I noticed is that on warm starts, not super often but has happened maybe once a week or two, the engine will almost stall out right after I start it and then rev back up to life as if it prevented the stall. Looked into this a little and seems like it could be a crankshaft position sensor going bad.
Sound plausible or any other ideas? Could that have anything to do with pulling timing or poor performance as well?
14 E63, 05 E55, 03 Evo 8, 08 F250, 06 R6R, 92 Talon TSI, and instability
Originally Posted by SpecR
Haven’t been to Mercedes, service appointment got pushed to get into a loaner.
Just had a thought… my idle has been shaking a bit and seems to be getting progressively worse. Another thing I noticed is that on warm starts, not super often but has happened maybe once a week or two, the engine will almost stall out right after I start it and then rev back up to life as if it prevented the stall. Looked into this a little and seems like it could be a crankshaft position sensor going bad.
Sound plausible or any other ideas? Could that have anything to do with pulling timing or poor performance as well?
Checked before, both coolant reservoirs look full, never had low coolant since I got the car a year ago, driven about 17k miles. Oil went down a quart over about 7-8k miles if that has any relation to a problem you think I might have.
no oil consumption is normal, i am looking if there is any coolant loss inside the combustion cylinder that can make rough idle at startup, it seems not.
Car has historic P061B code seemingly permanent, assuming because of tune.
Idle is considered pretty normal after being at Mercedes and independent shop.
No major loss of coolant or oil.
Turbo/wastegates were checked to be flawless by Mercedes dealer.
Tune file is acting faster up until about 70 MPH and then will usually start dying off shortly after that. Feels like it almost has something to do with 4th gear but have yet to test specifically 4th gear pulls. May have it brought to dyno to individually test gears.
If anyone knows:
Car has muffler delete, would anything important have been mistakenly cut off for sake of exhaust system functionality?
Good way to test while on trips to work? I have iCarSoft scanner, HPTuners; and dragy to use.
07-12-2023, 10:36 AM
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