S-Prihadi

Guys,

I am curious.

The analog coolant gauge of W212 as per their WIS, is a white liar.
PDF version attached too





True AMG version has digital small window for the very same Engine Coolant Temperature display in digital numeric.
Is this ECT an honest value as per ECM to OBD , or it is also a white liar like the needle version ?


True AMG instrument cluster




AMG wanna be IC




AMG wanna be IC





The white liar analog needle non AMG coolant temperature data vs honest OBD output from MED177 ECM. From a M276.820 E400 W212.065



.





,
This test is stationary. It is very easy to overwhelm a W212 cooling system in my hot climate while doing stationary test.



The OBD recorded Engine Coolant Temperature





Zoomed for easy view of the hottest zone.
Engine Coolant Temp ECT is by car's OBD.
Engine Oil Temp is an Omega K thermocouple on oil pressure sensor metal skin.
Underhood Temperature is Omega K thermocouple 15cm away from radiator.
Engine oil pressure data is using Banks Gauge oil pressure sensor.




Thank you for any replies....

CaliBenzDriver

Surya, my AMG TT hasn't been delivered yet - Your gauges look very practical.
Best part is the data login to show us AWESOME REAL LIFE GRAPHS! Me say thank you.


The bandwidth of your CAN-C Modules can only be taxed a bit further by connecting additional modules. I would unplug them or unplug one out plus Merge all the must have display together in one single unit.

How would you say is the consistency of your tranny shifts on a scale of 1 to 5... satisfying?

The graph shows the oil being cooler than coolant typical of MOD-0.

S-Prihadi

Cali,

You must test your MOD 2 with a real temperature sensors located at 2 locations.
Oil pressure sensor to be installed too.

1st temperature sensor at oil sump like M157, that is heated up oil ....not yet cooled down by oil cooler.
2nd temperature sensor at same location as oil pressure test port ( tough request , serpentine belt there ) , where this is the already cooled oil by way of oil cooler.
M276 oil cooler is at forward part of the Bank 2 , but at engine block left side.
It is very close to mechanical coolant pump entry port, left side. So it can cool the engine oil well, albeit is using a "hot" coolant.


In operation, the coolant entering the engine after being cooled by radiator is about 65C or near 30C cooler than the hot coolant into radiator, maximum delta I seen.


See below.............
BEFORE is 95C, measured at thermostat output to radiator, at the steel lip of the radiator hose.
AFTER is 64C, measured at radiator output steel lip of the radiator hose. ( the blo-ody radiator output port is plastic )



Prefer 2nd sensor not like mine reading skin temperature of oil pressure sensor, but immersed in engine oil kind of temperature sensor.
Its like before and after intercooler/charged air cooler intake air temperature monitoring on some marine engines I seen.
So they know when the sea water cooled charged air cooler is already clogging from barnacles.

Without true temperature data and oil pressure data, how do we verify MOD 2 ?


==========

So when you say my oil temperature is too cool (when engine already warmed up well and driven ), by my K thermocouple oil temp sensor location,
it has to be cooler than the hot coolant which the engine measured at the azz of the rear Bank 2. When and if driven hard, no choice, engine oil probably is at 120C
and it can only be cooled down close to the hot coolant temperature. This is when you see the engine oil temp and coolant temp are very close but it has to be the oil temperature
which is the one climbing up, and not the coolant temp going down. You will understand what I mean about this up-down in a minute.

If I have say 10C hotter engine oil temperature or similar oil temp to coolant temp at all times.... ,based on my current oil temp sensing location, that meant my oil cooler is not doing its job.
Oil cooler has fresh cooled coolant at least 20C to 30C cooler than the spent hot coolant of say 95C.
Even if the fresh coolant from mechanical pump to actual oil cooler plate gets heated up by engine while enroute, it is still easy 15C cooler than a spent coolant.

Here ( below ) is a very hot day, yesterday Saturday 35-36C ambient temperature and mid noon sun...... my engine was heat soaked at the alignments shop.
Go back home and got into a traffic jam , slow creeping one.

All the logs are 42 minutes worth of engine running. Logging is 5Hz as usual.



...



......



See above, where oil temp is close to coolant temp. What happen is the coolant temp is the one going down, not oil temp going up. The pink square I marked.



BELOW : Now we use car velocity data, the cooling effect pass 40KM/H where radiator can now remove more heat, compared to relying on electric fan when and if 40KM/H or slower.
See, the blue one, the car velocity graph, when radiator get higher velocity air within a short period of time the coolant temp drops down from 99C to 92C for after effect of 1st blue spike





Zoomed to see the 99C to 92C coolant temp drop.




Without proper data logging and suitable located temp sensor/s, we can only assume.


----------------------

One more thing I want to show you.
We know that M276 has its coolant temperature sensor at the azz of Bank 2, a bit above engine block, at lowest part of cylinder head.
So that ECT sensor by location is to be able to sense engine block and cylinder head heat release too. The spent coolant location so to speak.






I guess MB does not want its ECT to be at thermostat high location, as it is prone to reading air instead of coolant when overheating is from coolant loss.
I have nearly lost marine generators having ECT at thermostat housing, a high spot location prone to air bubbles too even when coolant is kinda full.


Specific to M276.8 Turbo, this engine gets a stand alone, not too spent/hot coolant source for its turbochargers. Not as cool as engine oil cooler coolant path for sure.
M278 gets a much cooler coolant direct from mechanical coolant pump output, using them fragile plastic+ALU pipe combo.

The pink circle is where I have a K thermocouple sensor, as a way to back up MB rear azz ECT sensor.
Green is the input coolant from engine block top part and red is the return or output, the hot coolant from turbo to a Tee for Left side Turbo and for joining mechanical coolant pump suction side.





The ALU pipe skin temperature of this coolant path, at the pink sensor location, is below .
There is no proper name for it, so I choose what name available in Banks Gauge menu and I use COOLANT TEMP - ENGINE OUT



See how cool the coolant temperature is. Driving so slow too, otherwise it will be hotter.
Typical 10C to 13C cooler than engine coolant temp at the rear azz.

The K thermocouple sensor for this coolant ALU pipe. Right at the 90 degree goose neck. Bank 1 turbo.

The aluminum tape is to keep the heat IN and not protect sensor from heat.
If I don't tape it with aluminum foil, at high speed when underhood temperature is cooler by wind velocity, I do not want this sensor to be cooled down.


---------------

I am just showing you, where the sensing location is, matters a great deal.
There are fresh coolant zone, spent coolant zone and middle level one in between.

So we must , in order to verify oil spray effectiveness in terms of heat capturing by the engine oil to certain oil mix cocktail, it is a must that we have the 2 oil immersed sensor located as I explained.
We then need to hire a constant load dyno where we can load our engine to 80% at all RPM. Not the typical 1 pull to WOT dyno.

This kind of dyno below, it can mimic continuous hill climb at load you can set at will as to not blow your engine but can maintain RPM and load as you please.
https://dynapack.com/software-features/

LOAD MODE F2

THIS MODE IS IDEAL FOR DRIVABILITY TESTS AND DIAGNOSIS OF LOAD RELATED PROBLEMS SUCH AS HESITATIONS AND MISFIRES. BY INPUTTING A FIXED LOAD LEVEL (THINK OF IT AS AN INFINITELY LONG HILL, WHERE YOU CAN ADJUST THE STEEPNESS OF THE GRADE) YOU CAN VARY THE RATE OF ACCELERATION AT WILL.

This load is consistently repeatable and has a very fine degree of adjustment. The load value ranges from practically no load at all, to a maximum load that will stall just about any vehicle. You can now accurately adjust “tip in” fuel or accelerator pumps or any other “transient response” type of device – and any other parameter where rate of acceleration and load is an important factor in recreating the real-world experience.

My friend is a dealer of this dyno brand.
Too bad when he still had his two units demo for RWD cars, I have not owned my E400 yet.
Now he sold them already and does not keep stock as buyers are so rare. He sold only so far 6 unit only LOL.
It uses hydraulic to simulate load.


See this dyno pull to mimic road use : gear changes, kinda hill climb and then all out. The rear spoiler is out too hahaha. Wheel speed does spin and ECM thought the car is on a road.


TRANSIENT POWER TESTING


With this kind of dyno, we can try the RPM where we get 20 PSI, 25 PSI , 35 PSI and 40 PSI oil pressure. We load the engine at 80% constant.
We can see how effective the oil cooler jets are at X PSI and engine RPM.
High RPM cause oil windage loss too.


----------

You can install the discussed sensors on you coming AMG TT.....


.

S-Prihadi

Your E350 can't beat my tranny shift modulation goodness...no way.
It is super beautiful, so on demand, so precise and so smooth.
Its peak performance was with the new 02 sensors all 4 and oil solenoid defeat for sure too.
You know my tranny oil is 2 years or 20,000KM max and in fact under 10,000KM is renewed already as I keep the 2 years max.
This year I am going for 3 years, now at less than 3,000KM old tranny oil of 18 months old I think. Need to see my maintenance book.

My CAN BUS is not as high density as yours Cali. My car option for ADAS does not exist hahaha, I love it that way.
So the Banks Gauge is no issue for my engine.
Besides most of the data are custom sensors from Banks, not only ECM MED177

CaliBenzDriver

The engine and lab instrumentation can be extremely useful for investigation.
In fact without your engine mastery I would still be wondering why my engine was burning oil and my whole car smelled oil and coolant since new.

Thank you MS!, you're the father of MOD-1.0... papa-Surya pointed out the dual-rate pump actuator.

We look at the same data but understand different things.... I don't believe oil is spray-cooling when it's below coolant temp.


oil heated by coolant heat exchanger


oil temp trailing coolant


oil still not above coolant

You once showed us a much better graph with the oil Pressure + oil Temp vs. RPM. It shows heat not being extracted at low oil pressure.
It links temp to pressure and spray RPM.


I see your oil is hardly bringing any heat into your coolant. Your coolant is always hotter thus transferring heat into cooler oil. That's why limited oiling is so backwards.

You are right about where and how actual Temp sensing is done does affect exact data. When considering your dataset it tells the same consistent story of oil being colder than coolant.


The first day you'll try any "MB Approved" 5w40 you will notice your garage temp drops significantly to normal room temperature - This is what happened when I tested Juan's favorite MOTUL. It was like a miracle, cold garage without burnt oil smell...

Easy satisfaction without instrumentation needed. This MOD-2.0 oil easily retired nasty heat-soaks until it got aged about 1500Mi.Thanks to Juan without whom I would still be messing with the wrong oils. Juan is MOD2.0' true enabler with Mot. 5W40!

MOD-1.0 only sprays above 2750.RPM below that it is still "stock dry pistons". It's effects are very limited for normal driving ie. below 2000.RPM. Rings are unsealed, packing burnt oil carbon deposits.

Coolant is unable to remove significant engine heat from dry pistons. This requires sprayers enabled by 30PSI pressure linked to.... viscosity/temp.

Anyway, I think we understand where we at and available steps.
Under these conditions you can still spray cool with paddle shifting to raise RPM near 3000.RPM on MOD 1.0 - That works great too. No oil change necessary

S-Prihadi

Cali,

When I drive hard, naturally my oil temp and coolant temp goes up simply from more engine load. Also we know the oil jet cooling for piston would be doing very well once oil press is higher.
That is what I have shown you in sometime ago, and I believe the data was from before I replaced the thermostat and cleaned my cooling system.
Also to note my engine has two turbos, so my engine when driven hard would produce more heat to the engine oil than non turbo M276

Anyway, what I still wont do is adding thicker 5W50 mobil 1 to my 0W40 mobil 1 at small X quantity of mix, because you believe that the mix allows better oil jet cooling at lower RPM.
This is what we can not prove...yet. The lower RPM with a bit of 5W50 in a 040W mix and then the oil jet can spray more or better at same oil pressure ??
If we been using super thin 0W20 or 0W30 , that 5W50 mix will be probably have more effect.

I do not have oil consumption at all, not unless I track my car. This is based on 5,000KM / 3,106 miles oil life of 200 hours max or 6-8 months max use.
This is not because my engine has better secondary oil separator, it is simply it does not eat oil like your experience on your engine before the MOD-s.

My garage can not be heat soaked by my car. It has a roof as tall as 2nd storey building, which is 12 feet or more. It is two car garage front to back. Not side by side.
I am a tropical guy, hot humid air is what I been born with

I understand your excitement over the phenomenal improvement on your engine and tranny response from all your MOD-s stages, and I am so happy for you.
But I don't like coming to conclusion without proper data and properly located suitable sensors to collect those data on the said engine.

Our engines are very different, albeit M276 family.
Our climate is so different too.

CaliBenzDriver

Master Surya,
-- I can't believe you're still running 0w40 in tropical climate.

-- I totally respect not wanting to mix anything to your crankcase oil.

-- You want more data proving that viscosity directly lowers these engine temperature.


Well the solution is safe and easy!
Simply use a genuine 5w40 to get cooling improvement.

Absolutely zero mixing is necessary for MOD-2.0.

Better viscosity improves cooling right away.


You can instantly lower extreme heat by using genuine "MB Approved" 5w40 oil with your MOD-1 setup.

++++ Cooling > Performance shift :
The performance transformation ECU has unleashed on my engine is the source of my excitement. I am not thrilled by normal cooling but what it has allowed to unfold.

Now my engine runs unbelievably strong below 2500. RPM.

This makes perfect use of a 200F temperature controlled engine.

++++ lead-foot RPM !
I know you're driving style on land is redline performance. ✌️
I don't think you can loose the extreme heat already accumulated because of dry-lubing RPM limit.

I think the best overall bet is to be temperature controlled with a satisfied ECU not looking to ease engine load.

++++ Understanding Data instrumentation...
I totally agree that data and statistical analysis rules everything: from ECU to the new AI technology.

I have spend nearly a quarter century developing database applications.
I know first hand how not to be overwhelmed and miss important trends.

I have outgrown splitting-hair about large datasets. Dealing with fractions of PSI or Fahrenheit or data is insignificant. Instead I deal with trends and limits.

We can't see the forest by looking at individual trees. We concider big picture before working out meaningful details.


Applied trend logic :
Less viscosity > more heat
More viscosity > less heat
More heat > less viscosity

Change nothing > same results!

S-Prihadi

You seems to forget that I done test on the popular Liqui Moly Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
But it was before I install oil temp sensor on the oil press sensor skin.

It does not give better oil pressure than Mobil 1 0W40.




teaser

CaliBenzDriver

MS: everything you deal with is always deeply interesting - This is why we can make progress !
​​​​

Here is what I gathered from the above:

-- You compared fresh new LM 5W40 has lower pressure than a thin used Mob1. 0w40.

-- You also point to xW40 oil becoming a thin xW30 according to base stock.

-- low viscosity anti-wear friction modifiers are used for dry-lubing.

-- We know that strategies to "save more gas" works against engine longevity.

-- Ppl look for wear metals in engines partly dry-lubed with thin W30 oils.....


It seems impossible to improve dry-lubing.... unless a few parameters are tweaked

MB2timer

I hate to state the obvious, especially in front of a crowd like this on this forum that is to an overwhelming extent, very knowledgeable and informed on automotive expertise in general (like Marissa Tomei in my Cousin Vinny), and MB data in particular.
So I apologize if I am telling anyone here, something they already know.
The whole reason for multi viscosity oils is, that heat affects viscosity.
So the oil engineers came up with a way to formulate oils to retain their viscosity when heated, but not thicken when cooled.
When oils LOSE viscosity(from heat), they thin, and lose their ability to lubricate, and also lose their ability to act as a sealant to the combustion chambers and any other high pressure areas of the engine.
In the same way, when oils cool, their viscosity increases(as defined by their ability to flow) and the thicker resistance also increases wear, while decreasing performance.
The wear increases because of a gelling affect when a lubricant cools sufficiently.
With the multi-vis oils, they keep their viscosity from decreasing while hot, and keep their viscosity from increasing when the oil is operating in colder temperatures.
I hope I didn’t insult anyone by trying to explain something they already knew very well.

S-Prihadi

MB2,
Yes well noted and well understood. Thank you. No offence at all. This is a healthy discussion.

You missed the actual point I am discussing with Cali, its scattered in a few different threads actually.
Its been a long discussion we had, not about oil viscosity per se. Its much more interesting than that.

Short version :
To me if I can't collect proper data because I am missing the sensors for it, I will not want to make assumption based on what I "feel" .
This is the basis of my little healthy discussion with Cali on his oil mix MOD-s.


Cali,
Install the same sensors as I use, and then we compare notes, albeit mine has turbos, but the data will be great from M276.9 nevertheless.
The whole point of a forum is to share findings/experience and whatever good stuff, but the findings must have proper data to support it.