Bogdici

Hi guys!,

Currently I am getting a problem that persists after I installed new rims, new rubbers(Michelin Alpin 5 MO) wheel winter setup.
OEM rims fitment

• front 245/40R19 8x19 inch ET20
• rear 275/35R19 9x19 inch ET49.

AM rims fitment

• front 245/40R19 8x19 inch ET35 with 15mm spacers(ET35 adding the 15mm hubcentric spacers gets the fitment to ET20 identical OEM fitment)
• rear 245/40R19 8x19 inch ET35.

I got the wheels balanced in 3 different shops, the last one being a professional one where they changed the position of the rubbers on the rims and did something called "force road".They also gave me a document stating the tires were not balanced correctly from the previous tire shop.I tought the problem was solved but actually did nothing.
But one good thing is that now I know for sure the problem does not go with the tires being unbalanced.It messes up my mind now that the OEM tire setup hadnt have this problem and I should consider the problem has to do with something form the car?.I am seeking out for help from you guys as I recently bought this car and I can't properly enjoy her.

What should I look into forward to solve this problem?
Did you guys experienced tangling problems like this and can give me your solutions?
The car is a W213 E53 AMG 2019 with 70k km on it.

Thank you!

bobblehead

U have longer bolts with the aftermarket wheels (as you have spacers on) ? Also, make sure the longer wheel bolts are applicable to the aftermarket wheels.

make sure the spacers are seated properly

lastly, ask shop to see uf the wheels are “true”. No bends

superswiss

Yeah, first thing would be to remove the spacers and use wheels with the correct offsets. Spacers change the suspension geometry, in particular the scrub radius. Also, even though yours are hub centric, they could still cause vibration if there's debris, rust on the hub or if they simply don't sit flush for some reason. Spacers also cause more load on the bearings, so if your bearings are potentially about to go, then adding spacers will just make it worse.

What your third shop did is called road force balancing, which balances the tires with a roller simulating the force of the road and aligns the low and high points of the wheel and tires so they are as round as possible. This will also detect if any of the wheels are bent as in that case the minimum road force can't be met or if the wheels are only slightly bent, then road force balancing can help align the tire in a way to compensate for the bend, but no guarantee. I'm assuming they were able to get it road force balanced, so that rules out bent wheels. How much road force did they measure? Anything below 40 lbs is generally considered acceptable, but in the US the limit is 26 lbs and anything above can cause vibration. However, most good shops will not allow anything higher than 20 lbs with low profile tires, so you should ask them.

Keith66

^^^ agreed.

The spacers are a variable that can cause what you describe. If your front ET35 offset can clear the brakes and everything inboard, I would remove the spacers and test drive it without the spacers and if your issue resolves, you found the culprit.

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

It's the spacers.

Bogdici

Hi guys, thank you for answers!
Sorry for coming with a late reply as I had a very busy agenda.

Spacers are fitted only in the front axle.

I feel the vibrations coming from all the car, not necessarily from the front axle where the spacers are fitted, it doesnt feel like it is coming from the steering wheel.

I had my car a few weeks ago in the MB Dealership for the oil change and told them about this vibration.They said the car doesnt have any mechanical problem and I should check the wheels.


Current Aftermarket rims have a thinner bolt fit size so I bought shorter nut bolts, but only in the rear.In the front axle I installed the longer original bolts because of the spacers.
The type of bolts is a little bit unclear, I cannot exclude this, I"ve installed rounded bolts, but I cannot for sure check what type should be installed on the AM rims.
Adding the 15mm spacers gets the fitment to ET20, identical OEM fitment.In my opinion this thing excludes the fact that the geometry is changed, but only in the front.
Unfortunately I cannot test drive the car without the spacers as they will touch the inner suspension arm, thats why I fitted them.
About the correct fitment of the spacers, the last shop cleaned my wheels very well, and applied an antiseize product(i think its called), so that might not be the case.

Regarding the measuremenets of the road force balance from the shop I will come with an update later, as I have the document from them in the car.

You guys are saying the spacers can cause this, but why?, are they really that bad?

superswiss

Definitely a few red flags here with the bolt situation. Make sure they are good quality bolts fitting correctly. In the front with the spacers you actually need to use longer bolts. Your bolts need to be 15 mm longer than the original bolts to account for the spacers. Otherwise your front wheels won't be secure and properly bolted on. Also, not sure about what you are really saying, but it doesn't sound like you know what the proper bolts are. Do you aftermarket wheels have the proper hub size? Many aftermarket wheels are made to fit different models and then require hub rings to adapt to a specific vehicle's hub size. Do the wheels sit tight w/o play before you install the bolts? There should be no play on the hub.

Keith66

Lug bolts are extremely important and should not be left open to guesswork. Most aftermarket wheels are machined for cone seat lug bolts, whereas most MB OEM wheels are machined for ball seat lug bolts. These are definitely not interchangeable and can cause vibrations as well as a safety issue. I would definitely confirm you have the correct lug bolts for the correct wheel lug surface seat. As an example, if you were to use ball seat lug bolts for wheels that were machined for cone seat lugs, the ball seat portion of the lug bolts will only be contacting the wheel on a small portion of the seat. This could cause vibrations and looseness to occur.

Also, not all wheel spacers are created equally and many can cause vibrations or out-of-balance conditions. Always use a high quality spacer with a shank that has been properly machined both to match your hub OD and a shank that matches the wheel hub bore. This will properly center the spacer on your hub and the wheel. You may want to also confirm your aftermarket wheels have the correct hub bore. Flat spacers (no shank) with any play in the hub bore will also introduce vibrations. An example of a high quality spacer with the proper shank would be like this one from H&R:



I wish you the best of luck finding your issue!

bobblehead

so, it seems like it comes down to spacers, bolts issue then.

you use factory oem longer bolts on aftermarket wheel ? I think this is a concern to me. As for the rear, could you have bought the wrong type of bolts ? Also, what torque are you doing for the wheels ?

Can you show us the aftermarket wheel brand & specs ? Show us the bolts you are currently using on these aftermarket wheels

I.T. Guy

And...

Are the aftermarket wheels actually hubcentric? How tight does the spacer fit in the wheel bore?
Is there enough clearance, is it _really_ sitting flush?
For real?
Eyes can fool.
There must be ample chamfers on the wheels that are deeper and larger then the transition on the spacer between the actual spacer and hubcentric protusion.

I chased all kinds of spacers that "looked" like they fit for a long time. See:
https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...ited-w212.html

TL;DR after months and 8 pages of pain it was the spacers:
https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...ml#post8644646

If your spacers do check out, and the wheels are indeed hub centric WITH the correct bore, the only thing left is the wheel bolts.

I.T. Guy

I take that back.
It could be alignment.
I could be loose bushings.
It could be wonky suspension.
It could be propeller shaft and or hanger bearing
It could be hubs
It could be transmission
Axles

lol



But most likely it is spacers, bolts, wheels, balance.

Do you have the OEM rims to put back on and see if it is just a spacers, bolts, wheels, balance problem? To rule out something else happened.

Bogdici

Hi again guys, thank you for you interest in this thread.
I have changed the tires with the OEM summer ones, it seems that the problem is not related to spacers/wheels as the intermitent vibrations are still present.
Summer tires(MO Yokohama advan sport) are much more louder, it is a huge difference, it scared me when I started driving after I mounted them, made me feel I did something wrong while installing.I think this made me overlook the intermitent vibrations, also being unaware of the sound it seemed normal when first drove the car.

As a short responses to your replys':

• Size of the bolts is ok, as i bought ones for the rear axle to to properly fit the new AM wheels.
• Bolts have the correct shape for the rims, I rechecked that.
• Spacers are hubcentric and after I uninstalled them the lubrication grease seems to be evenly spaced and this made me think they fit really well, also I visually reinspected the fitment and they fit well.
• The spacers producer are indeed the H&R ones, I would never settle for less quality as it something that implies safety.
• I haven't added the tire shop document as it is irrevelant at the moment.

My further questions are, what would be the best thing to check after the wheels got out of discussion?Doing a wheel allingment?
The MB dealer told me that the car is mecanically alright after I told them about the vibrations, but I do not trust them.

bobblehead

so, you have now swapped out the winters and back in factory summer and the vibration is still there ? Given the complete set is totally changed over, you can rule out the tires & wheels. It may come down to the suspension components. Discuss that with your MB dealer to see if alignment can resolve it, perhaps, it is something else.

PeterUbers

Driveshaft hangar bearings ... to consider

Bogdici

I've spoken and made an appointment to the MB Local Service.Told them to consider the hangar bearings but they told a bearing should cause a permanent sound/vibration.
Anyway I will have to wait and see what they discover now, as previously they told me that the car is mecanically alright...

I.T. Guy

I had my hanger bearing done twice on the S212
It only vibrated between 130-150kph and only had a slight whine/hum noise from 70 kph to 80kph. My suggestion is bad hanger bearing are not necessarily a permanent sound/vibration. The tech needs to attach whatever stethoscope thing they use to various points on the car to isolate the vibration. That's how my dealer (easily) found any vibrations every time I took the car in with a complaint. Sometimes it was wheel bearings, sometimes control arm, sometimes hanger bearings. If they have the right tools and techs this is easy.

TugboatBill

Based on past experience, I wouldn't trust my MB dealer with anything that remotely had to do with anything that wasn't 100% stock. That includes wheels and tires.