altquark

On ebay right now is what is being touted as Jacques Laffittes' 1992 DTM EVO II.

I am very interested in the vehicle myself, and spoke to the dealer - who claim to have supporting documentation from AMG.

However. There are some inconsistencies - first of all, no EVO II bodywork makes me suspicious. Secondly, they cannot ensure that the engine is of the correct displacement.

They are looking for a serious price - certainly in the range of a well-used DTM car - but is the vehicle the real deal ?

Heres the link titled "AMG MERCEDES-BENZ EX-FACTORY 190E COSWORTH RACE CAR" -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=4568034323

I'd appreciate hearing from the forum experts on the 190E DTM cars on whether they think this is indeed the right vehicle.

Oh yes, and here is a picture of the original vehicle I found on the net being driven by M. Laffitte :

http://www.zandbak.net/classic/92dtm/022.jpg

Dan's 1993 190E

I'm no expert at all, but it would cost more to fake a car like that than buy an original. The pics that are shown show some pretty pricey parts. Also I wouldn't worry about the displacement. The engine is legit, but it may have been modified which would increase the displacement. Displacement is just the size of the cylinders/pistons, so anytime you bore and engine out, the displacement increases.

Very sweet ride!

Dan

MTI

Potomac German Auto knows their stuff, it's legit. Although the Evolutions are the most recognizable DTM cars that Mercedes fielded, the 2.3 and 2.5-16s were also fielded by privateers with prep work from AMG and independent shops.

The only thing I might take issue with is the label "Ex-Factory"

Darth Speed

That car could be an early DTM car. 16V days. 1985-7 or it could be a ETCC car. (The 16v was not competitive back then) The only reference they are making to the EVO is the driver of the car went on to drive the later DTM series. There was a 190 that entered the NATCC races one time and that looks like the car. The car may have been built by AMG but I would need more detailed pictures of the undercarriage and rollbar to really tell.



If you are serious and you want a REAL AMG built EVO-II email me. I know where a few are. but the price is NOT Cheap.

altquark

Thats what I'm concerned about !!! I WANT to purchase the 2.5 16V as opposed to the 2.3 16V - theres a huge difference in performance between the two, and a standard AMG 16V is no where as powerful as the DTM car - the problem is, there really isn't much reference material as far as the displacement is concerned - resulting in me having to purchase the car before fully taking the engine apart to understand its displacement for race purposes.

altquark

Potomac are stating that it IS ex-factory, and state they have paperwork to prove that it was Jacque Laffittes' car in the DTM.

Looking through Laffittes' results, and Amthors results - it seems that neither got any higher than 7th - with most results either DNF or at the back of the pack. Obviously, these results seems to me that the car was prepared by AMG for their customers as opposed to the front runners. Secondly, the picture I posted shows Laffittes car - and it can be clearly seen its an EVO II. Therefore, whoever then took this car put it back to standard bodywork for some unknown reason....

Darth Speed

I don't think it was ex-factory more like just AMG Customer prepared. Mercedes was NOT involved in any factory sponsored racing at that time until the one make 16v races. I think that was 1989.

altquark

This is supposed to be a 1992 car. They were certainly involved in the DTM then - in fact, Mercedes (AMG as a factory team) had results as far back as the mid 80's - even the Marketing Manager came third in a race in 1986 !

Klaus Ludwig started his DTM success with a 190E EVOII in 1990 - in fact, I've found an ex-Ludwig DTM 190E that is in far better condition for about the same price in Europe which I've started a conversation with.

However - I really want to understand whether this one on ebay is an original EVO II that has been mucked around throughout its life. I did a photographic comparison between the engine and this picture :

http://i13.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/ac/86/d9_3.JPG
and
http://www.touringcartrophy.com/imag..._mercedes1.jpg
http://www.touringcartrophy.com/imag..._mercedes2.jpg
http://www.touringcartrophy.com/imag..._mercedes3.jpg
http://www.touringcartrophy.com/imag..._mercedes4.jpg
http://www.touringcartrophy.com/imag..._mercedes5.jpg

I notice quite a few similarities. Note that the five pictures are of an actual DTM 2.5 16V AMG engine - approximately a claimed 350HP - which is almost 100 horsepower above the standard AMG 2.5 16V engine.

What has worried me is the exhaust configuration and the little billet with the leads that sticks out of the camshaft ends. I'm not sure what those are (enlightenment anyone ?), but I have photographic evidence that these electrical connections with the billet appears on DTM engines - but is completely absent on "standard" AMG motors.

Potomac are asking a lot of cash for this car. I'm actively looking for a DTM 190E that I can race with PBOC - and this car seems interesting. I can certainly acquire a motor and bodywork from Europe for an additional $25,000 - but that means spending $65,000 on a car with a dubious history.

Thats why I'm asking here - I'm sure to receive far more pertinant information of the legality of the car - and I really do NOT want to spend that kind of money on an "altered club-racer" ! I told Potomac that I can buy an indy-car with history for the same kind of money they're asking...

Darth Speed

What I meant was the Mercedes factory was not really heavily involved in motorsports until the late 80's. yes there were teams racing with thier blessing, but Mercedes didnt jump into the fire until later.
I worked on a EVO-II DTM team based in Asia from 1990 till 95, so I have been around the real thing.

altquark

After searching, I found a better DTM car that i'm negotiating currently with.

The car I'm looking at is a far superior car, has the correct EVO II bodywork, logbooks documenting its involvement in the 1992 DTM - and has been updated and upgraded sympathetically over the past 10 years. Current trim has certified output close to 400 horsepower. I am severely doubting the one on ebay has that kind of engine power. The one I'm negotiating with is about 50% higher price than what Potomac are asking for - but I think its worth spending the extra money for a real DTM Mercedes.

If all goes well, I'll be importing the car at the end of the year - and I'll be racing with PBOC Florida at the beginning of 2006.....it'll be the only mercedes in the PBOC field, and hopefully will give some serious butt-kicking to those E30's and 993's !

Anyway. If anyone wants to buy a 32k miles 1998 600SL to help me finance this dream - you can message me directly !!!!

Saprissa

I too am wondering exactly why the EVO II body kit is not on this car ???
that is the only thing holding me back from even bidding on this car right now.


The eBay listing reads:

This Mercedes-Benz 190E started it's transformation with AMG in 1992. Along with AMG the construction and build team in Germany Mass/Schons Racing developed this awesome specimen up in 1992 for the DTM racing circuit.

In 1992 this vehicle was driven originally by Jaques Laffite in the DTM (German Touring Car Championships). After 1992 the vehicle was again driven in the DTM circuit in 1993. However, this time the car was piloted by Stig Amthor. Throughout 1993 Amthor drove this vehicle with good results and standings.

Along came the 1994 race season and this vehicle again changed hands. This time the AMG 190 was put through the LANGSTRECKE (endurance racing) and was driven by Ingmar Persson and the ZAKSPEED racing team.

From that point in 1994 the history of this vehicle became hard to track. The log books cannot be sourced anywhere and the above information comes directly from Mercedes-AMG – Product Management in Affalterbach, Germany.

those aren't "good results and standings."

I would love to own this car as part of an MB / AMG collection
but the bodykit issue / engine displacement question / and actual race history seem so sketchy, that I'm hesitant.

anyways, gratuitous pics:

MTI

Not every Mercedes campaigned in the 90's DTM were Evolutions, so it's not a surprise that some normal 2.5-16's were on the track, abeit less competitive, but cheaper to race. Not all teams were "factory" so there were some older cars making up the "back of the pack" but still earning decent sponsor money and getting experience to move up the racing ladder.

altquark

ok - after much historical digging - I am not sure that Potomac can claim this is lafittes car at all. It seems to me that this might be an older EVO I - maybe - and that the engine, while possibly a 2.5 16V - certainly isn't a DTM engine but instead a "stock" 2.5 16V engine.

AMG has confirmed that it was a "factory 2.5 16V DTM car" with Lafitte and Stamthor - but it seems that there were a number of RESERVE cars available to their main drivers - and it is possible that this is a reserve car or a test car that helped the drivers come up with EFI computer work for their main cars.

As far as the engine capacity and bodywork is concerned - it seems that this car has been raced in Endurance racing, and almost certainly had to abide to certain class rules outside of the DTM championship. Therefore, I am surmising that the engine was replaced with a more "stock" engine - therefore probably providing 250hp instead of the DTM 350hp spec. Its interesting that the car has programmable EFI - especially since you can reprogram the EFI computer from the seat.

Lastly, by 1992 the EVO II spec 190E's had 6 speed gearboxes - as opposed to the 5 speed that is in this car - hence its almost certainly a 1991 or earlier vehicle.

I'm glad I did this research. You learn a lot about the history of some very cool cars by looking hard into something like this. Right now, I'm negotiating for a real 1992 EVO II that has much more substantial history - and if everything goes well, I'll be looking to race it with PBOC by next season..!

Hopefully Potomac realizes what they have isn't much of a historical vehicle - and that they sell the car to someone who races it in some sort of series. There are too few Mercedes on the tracks in this country - and too many porkers!

Saprissa

so what SERIES would this eBay Potomac EVO 190E race in ???

I enjoy collecting pictures of these MB race cars and their associated history, so thanks altquark for the research.

Look forward to seeing your 1992 EVO II, and it's associated history. Please keep us appraised. What is PBOC ? Got any pics of the car yet ?

I completely agree with you that there are way too few Mercedes-Benz / AMG on the racing series here in the USA. That was one of the things I looked for when I got into the BENZ scene, but sadly disappointed. Please send me links or pics when you see MB racers.

Thanks again !

Carlos

Saprissa@aol.com

altquark

There are quite a few series that would be open to a car like this in the US.

SCCA - it could run in modified touring trim, improved touring - something like that
NASA - theres a few series here - probably amongst the BMW Racing Owners Club or Porsche Racing Club
HSR - It is old enough to even get into some of the historic touring car races

PBOC is the Florida Porsche and BMW Owners Club (www.pbocflorida.com) that specifically race german cars. They are more "gentleman" racers and have fields of several dozen porsches, sportscars and exotics - theres always a handful of Beemers amongst them. They have an open invite for Merc's - and I am hoping to be the first one to answer their calling !

Of course, all of the club racing scene these days is somewhat overshadowed. Even pro-racing gets ridiculously low numbers of spectators. Nascar has completely soaked up every motorsports fan and road-racing gets nothing back - so, as you can imagine, the club-racing scene is purely for fun and do not involve spectators anymore.