speedfrk

So has anyone installed a pulley (any brand) on a c230 coupe and tested the A/F ratio at something close to sea level standard conditions and not had a lean problem? If 14:1 is too lean, what is acceptable, and is it possible to use a pulley without a chip safely?

otoupalik

You can have it installed at either shop. You will only have a full KLEEMANN warranty if it is installed at our location in Huntington Beach or at Canepa though.

Feel free to contact me directly to talk about this more.

Thanks

Brad

Buellwinkle

I spoke to some people in the know and it 14:1 is not that bad and won't harm your engine. You have to look at it this way. There are about 8 pulley companies and nobody has addressed this for our cars (and newer SLK230s) and nobody has had problems that I know of. On the earlier SLK, most tuners now include a reworked fuel regulator to enrichen the mix (the exceptions are DSR includes a GIAC chip and Kleemann addresses the symptons by using cooler spark plugs). It's tougher on our cars because the fuel regulator is part of the pump assembly. I think it's OK for now. But since Brad is the naysayer, then he should be the one to produce a dyno with a/f ratios using a Kleemann pulley with no chip. After all, he installed sooo many.

otoupalik

So there you go. Carl's 'people in the know' say that it is ok. So if you drive your car hard and the a/f is too high, you have just been given a warranty by Carl and his experts. So if you blow a head gasket, please send the bill to Carl. What was that address?

Thanks

Brad

mdp c230k

Remember the perfect stoicometeric(sp?) A/F ratio is 14.7 to 1. That is where the most power is had but it is dangerously lean in the real world. If you dont predetonate then don't worry unless you engine temp goes up more than 10%.

otoupalik

Very true. You are dead right, in the real world that will KILL your if you drive it hard. I have seen it over and over on race cars and poorly tuned supercharged and turbo charged motors.

One of the real problems is that your stock water temp guage is slow to react and not extremely accurate. Once it is in the Red it is too late.

Thanks

Brad

Buellwinkle

So Brad, since other pulleys kill, show us your dyno plots for a Kleemann pulley (only) with A/F ratios done by Vadim. You won't because you can't. Don't come up with fluff without facts to prove it. Does anyone else want to see this?

Show us the Dyno!!!

otoupalik

I never siad I have a dyno chart from our dyno. I can show you ones from Kleemann and other Kleemann dealers. Show me once where I have said I have such a dyno chart my friend. Show me any fluff that I have posted. You just don't like what I have to say, so you try personal attacks to attempt to get me off topic. Ain't going to work man.

As someone in another thread already posted:



Thanks

Brad

Buellwinkle

OK, show us any Kleemann dyno with A/F ratio on a coupe taken without any dyno correction factor or other mods (exhaust, chip, NO2, wheels) that may skew results. I guess getting any real info from you is like beating a dead horse.

revstriker

Brad, I'm not trying to gang up against you, but I think within all the bantering here, there are some serious questions that have not been answered. You made a very serious comment about 14:1 being dangerous.

So how does the KLEEMANN kit maintain the lower A/F ratio? What part of the kit that you listed is doing this??

Also, speedfrk had a good question that also has not been answered:

speedfrk

If 14:1 is not really safe, can anyone show a dyno chart for a c230 coupe with a pulley that has a safe A/F ratio at seal level standard? Why would I buy Kleeman or any other brand if they can't show that they have a safe A/F ratio after the install.
Brad, If you have never done one of these before, don't you want to know yourself? If you have dyno charts from Kleeman or other dealers, yes, by all means post them. This is what everyone wants to see.

otoupalik

Sorry, all the BS from Buellwinkle, I have tried to get to the real questions. If I missed a few, I appologize.

That is a good question that I cannot answer. I am not the engineer behind Kleemann. Brandon can answer that. All that I know is that the Kleemann kit has been installed on various cars across the US without these issues. Now, could there be differences in the fuel octane ratings that account for this - yup. CA gas is horrible for aftermarket mods. Could there also be altitute adjustments, sure. The only really firm numbers we have on our dyno for the Kleemann kit on a C230K also had the upsolute and the software was really creating problems. We have sold and installed kits without doing the dynos and the customers are happy and there is no audible traces of any pinging with the hood open. Also, with a scanner attached the numbers look good. There are a couple of cars in Atlanta that may have dyno charts and I know Kleemann has one themselves, but I obviously don't have access to them.

If concerned and realisitcally interested in the kits, you can contact Kleemann directly and they shoudl be able to anser the questions.

As for Speedfrk, an acceptable a/f ratio for a car driven HARD, and guys that is the key word that I have included on each post, varies. On a car that is tracked hard for 20 min sessions, etc., anything above 13 is insane. If you simply put around to the grocery store and only stomp it once in a while, then 14 is not so outrageous. Personally, I drive hard. I would never drive a car that had a/f ratios leaner then 13.

Also, of course I want to know. The problem has been that our own project car needs to be taken bakc to stock software as it has other modifications. I cannot produce a chart or any hard numbers on my dyno till I have a car that is in stock configuration before the testing. I have seen the charts from other dealers and have tested extensively the other kleemann products and everything is spot on. Many might not want to buy a kit untill they can see such a chart, that I can understand. However, whether you buy a Kleemann or Renntech kit and if you have it installed by an authorized dealer you have a warranty. You are covreed. That is the point. If you buy the ASP, who do you go to if something bad happens?

Thanks

Brad

KJ-TypeR

13.1 A/F Ratio is IDEAL for a forced induction engine.

Kleeman and Renntech may offer a warranty on their part, but I highly doubt they would pay for any engine damage that occured due to the pulley.

Who cares if Renntech or Kleeman give you a new pulley when your engine blows...you probably wouldn't want the pulley on your car anymore after that!

Buellwinkle

Does that mean that Kleemann has changed their position on warranttees and will now cover all damage caused by his mods on the supercharger and engine like Renntech? If so, WyattEarp will be excited to hear that Kleemann will now pay to fix his supercharger that was damaged after the upgrade. I'm sorry because I thought the Kleemann warranttee only covered the actual pulley itself like the ASP warranttee.

Brad, you finally admit, you have nothing! No proof that the Kleemann pulley will or won't alter the A/F ratio. Took you long enough but I wouldn't have expected anything better from you. Now you scared most from getting any pulley.

All I can say to those that want a pulley, get it chipped like most SLK guys do if the a/f ratio bothers you. ASP Pulley + Chip may still be less than an Kleemann pulley by itself and produce better results. The word I've heard is that Kleemann in Denmark knows about the issue and is developing a chip to correct it.

KJ-TypeR

The Kleeman pulley will cause the same problems with A/F ratio's leaning out too much at higher RPM's.

It's the increased size of the pulley that causes this, not the company that makes it. An 8" diameter pulley by ASP will cause the A/F ratio to lean out exactly the same amount as an 8" Kleeman or 8" Renntech pulley. If anyone says that the A/F is lean because of a design flaw by ASP, then they are full of *****.

DCX Engineer

I'm not ready to take the plunge until more research or testing is completed.

speedfrk

When you say chip, do you mean a plug in part or something that has to be soldered. Somebody needs to come up with something like what we use on the bikes- Power Commander, etc, where you can remap the fuel delivery stuff from a laptop.

Buellwinkle

KJ-TypeR, thanks for seeing through the BS, the A/F ratio is actually leanest at low RPM and enrichens to about 13.5 at high RPM. I've seen this not only on my car but a little worse on an SLK with a Kleemann alloy pulley.

SpeedFRK, on some cars like my Mustang a chip means a plug in device, unfortunately on the MB it means opening the ECU, removing the chip, analysing it and reprogramming the chip and putting it back in or putting in a socket in it's place and mounting the modified chip in the socket. The reason it's a little pricier on our cars is that there are so many revisions of the software so they have to see the revision and apply the corrections to it. That's why it's not a simple mail order, put it in yourself deal. On the good side, I've heard 15-20hp is doable.

QC1

Man I am scared to get a pulley now for sure. Im not a mechanic by any means but I like tuning my engine. I want to add something to increase the HP and not worry that Im doing damage to the engine. I wish someone could say, "Add this pulley, and I guarantee nothing will happen." All this talk about fuel-air mixtures, dont run the car to much is scarring me.

renncpe

You will find that 8-10 hp will be the number on ecu mods for the c230k. Renntech is going to be able to flash the ECU with out opening the box. There is alot more in the software than fuel maps and timeing curves.

Randy

Buellwinkle

Nobody is going to give you 30+hp and tell you that there's no risk. From what I understand (and I've heard this second hand), Renntech will warranttee that any problems arising from the use of their mods are covered for the remainder of the MB warranntee or 2 years, whichever is longer. Of course keep in mind that they charge for this, the pulley kit is about $1,600 and the chip is about the same price plus they must do the installation to keep the warranttee and other non Renntech mods may void this warrantee, so you are probably looking at close to $4,000 installed with tax. So for a little more piece of mind you pay a hefty premium. You can do a lot of repairs for $3,000 if the need arises. Also, MB would have to prove that the mod existed and that it specifically caused the damage. People have been known to remove performance mods and then have the car repaired under warrantee.

Scylas

Actually I would say both of you guys confused the rest of us (who dont know ***** about pulleys and stuff and just want a bit mroe of performance, but do not want to blow up our engines). Instead of debating useless stuff, why dont you gusy explain us about the A/f ratio, and the possibilities of messing up our engines by adding a pulley.

Is a pulley alone safe?, or should we get a chip with it?

Personally, Im now gonna wait for a lot more research to be done before I buy any pulley.

QC1

I would settle for a smaller HP gain and know theres nothing to worry about rather than have a 30hp gain and have to worry.
Anyway, so the bottom line, is the Kleeman pulley safe? How about the ASP? Do you need to get a chip with any of these pulleys?

KJ-TypeR

Buellwinkle: If your car goes from 14.0 at low rpm to 13.5 at high rpm, it should be fine. Ideally, you'd like to get the A/F ratio lower at higher rpm to say around 13.0, but 13.5 is "ok".

The A/F ratio at higher rpm's is more important in this case.

IDEALLY, your car should be around Stoich (14.7) at low rpms (saves gas) and should richen to 13.1 at higher rpms. When you see A/F readings from cars that are tuned really well (i.e. cars with an aftermarket computer (i.e. Haltech, Motec etc.), they are close to 14.7 at idle and richen to 13.1 as the rpm's increase.

I think Otoupalik was really overreacting about the 14.0 A/F ratio since the 14.0 reading was at low RPM, not at high rpm where a reading of 14.0 would be VERY dangerous.

Something simple (and cheap) like a fuel pressure regulator might fix your problem. Does anyone sell/make one for the C230K?

Buellwinkle

Scylas, I don't make or sell any pulleys. I just went to ASP and asked them to make a pulley like 7 other companies do and nothing more. Because I have nothing to lose like Brad, I'm not afraid to tell you the truth. Nobody told me 3 months ago that if I increase boost my car will run lean and believe me I asked. I've done the research and knew for a long time that this was an issue on the older C230K sedans and SLK230K and I know how it's addressed in that market but because the newer cars have different kind of fuel systems that recirculate fuel back to the tank the old tricks don't work for us. Some tuners told me that the ECU on the newer cars is more sophisticated and will adapt. To reset my ECU my battery was disconnected for an hour while I did the install and I've driven the car for about 10 days before doing the dyno to make sure it had a chance to adapt per other tuners instructions. Part of that 10 days including drag racing at Carlsbad Raceway with Linh and sdcaclint, 2 forum members. I also did a lot of driving back and forth to San Diego and pretty much drove it much harder than usual. The ECU did not adapt and what's funny, I was told by someone very knowledgable with our ECUs that it wouldn't but I took the tuners word for it, DOH!. Do the tuners know about this, if they don't then they haven't done as much testing in 3 months as I've done in 10 days, if they do then either they are keeping vital info from you or it's not an issue. On the before dyno I showed A/F ratio at 12.5 and now it's 14 at low rpm. We checked with a master mechanic at an MB dealer and with an owner of a company that deals with engine management issues on german cars (I'm no expert but I have no shame in asking one). They said that although 14:1 is a little lean, it is not enough to harm the engine by a long shot. An ideal textbook fuel mixture is 14.7:1 (the higher the number the leaner) for a complete burn but is not practical.

So what does this all mean. Too much oxygen in the combustion chamber increases heat and that's refered to as Cylinder Head Temperature (CHT). The higher the CHT, the more likely pre-ignition will occur (pinging). If pre-ignition occurs, the ECU will pull back timing to offset this and you'll lose power. This is why when you look at most dyno curves for our cars with pulleys, power is being pulled back at 5,500 rpm. The reason it's not happening on Kleemann's own car is because he's at 5,000' and the air is thinner, less oxygen, lower CHT, no pinging, no pulling back of timing. Will it harm your engine like Brad insists, not likely as the ECU will correct for the situation, but not in the most optimum way for performance but will protect the engine, just like the ESP keeps you from doing burnouts but it may not be optimal for 1/4 mile times. Do you drive a lot between 5,500 and 6,000 rpm? I don't spend even 1% of my drive time there but obviously Brad drives in that range exclusively. The reason I would recommend a chip is not to protect your engine as the ECU will already do that, but to regain the lost power that the ECU is over correcting for. I really feel that there is another 15hp+ to be made by the right chip company. If Renntech can only get half that then look for someone that can, sorry Randy.

By now, Brad is fuming because, well that's what Brad does best. You see, Brad and Simon own this mail order business called Evosport and pretty much run it out of their homes and I've been by and there were huge stacks of boxes waiting for UPS so they must have a successful website and I wish them well. The "shop" they referred to is owned by Vadim and he specializes in Ford Taurus SHOs and therefore the name SHO Shop on the sign out front and the dozen SHO's in his shop. While I trust Vadim's judgement, knowledge and skill I don't place much confidence in what Brad says as you can tell. Anyone that refers to chipping the car as a "Band Aid" fix is just being arrogant. Anyone that believes a 8 3/4" pulley will have a different effect on your air fuel ratio over another 8 3/4" pulley obviously has no idea of what he's talking about. They both put out the same boost because they both spin the supercharger at the same speed. Nothing is different.

I hope this answers your questions because I'm going to get flamed big time by Brad any second now and I better get my flame proof suit on! Boy it's hot in here!