Need more torque from a dead stop. Any ideas?
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From: DC/VA
CL203
Oh boy, here is another one from the sixties. Modern Mercedes engines are manufactured using a special honing process that makes the engine "ready to race" from "green run." It is "fully broken in" when it leaves the factory door. You don't need "special" break-in oils, or need to change the oil after 1K Kms like in the olden days. It is not made too tight, so there is nothing to loosen. Torque is not going to increase as the car gets used.
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From: Northern CA
'02 C230 Sport Coupe
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'05 A4 1.8TQM6
Oh boy, here is another one from the sixties. Modern Mercedes engines are manufactured using a special honing process that makes the engine "ready to race" from "green run." It is "fully broken in" when it leaves the factory door. You don't need "special" break-in oils, or need to change the oil after 1K Kms like in the olden days. It is not made too tight, so there is nothing to loosen. Torque is not going to increase as the car gets used.
I never said anything about changing the oil at 1K or a special break in oil
And the sixties? Sorry, don't know what it was like back then
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2005 C Wagon (No snickering please!)
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=...6RS=PN/5916390
If you get lost, the patent number is 5916390. You will need a reader for patent documents. They are in TIFF format. Click help on the web page to download the reader. It only takes a minute.
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From: DC/VA
CL203
Here is a description of the process from the patent assigned by the inventors to MercedesBenz AG in 1997:
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=...6RS=PN/5916390
If you get lost, the patent number is 5916390. You will need a reader for patent documents. They are in TIFF format. Click help on the web page to download the reader. It only takes a minute.
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=...6RS=PN/5916390
If you get lost, the patent number is 5916390. You will need a reader for patent documents. They are in TIFF format. Click help on the web page to download the reader. It only takes a minute.
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From: Orange County
2005 C Wagon (No snickering please!)
Interesting. So you're saying the piston seals are already properly seated and broken in when that engine leaves the factory?
Exactly. The machining process explained in the patent results in an engine ready to go.
There is no need to ensure that these are properly seated so that down the line, oil consumption won't be a problem? Gas consumption won't be a problem?
Oil consumpion and emissions regulations are the primary reasons for developing the technology. Reducing manufacturing cost was another important part. The rings do not need to MIP (machine in place) the cylinder walls because the walls are already in a condition as if they had been "broken in" by the rings before the piston is inserted for the first time. Fuel consumption is about the same from the start from the engine standpoint. It does improve as the transmission electronics learn your driving style (from grandma to "like you stole it") and adjusts the shift pattern to get a more fuel-efficient car.
The new owner can take it easy with his/her engine, right? Most of your modern MB owners will follow the manual's break in period guidelines or old habits from the past. And some of those, because they were babying the engine too much, cause the seals not to seat properly and have problems with oil consumption and other problems down the road. Those who know how to properly break in an engine will not baby it, but not beat on it. If you search through the board, you'll also notice that gas mileage increases after the engine is "fully broken in", why can't they achieve the same mileage in their new car after they drive it off the lot vs 10k miles?
You should take it how you like it. There are other moving parts of the car that need different "seasoning" to operate to full potential. Moderate driving and brake application should be observed initially, but after a couple hundred miles you can crack the whip.
Now, as to the notion that the engine further machines itself after you get it, consider that it is filled with Mobil 1 0W - 40 that meets Mercedes specification sheet 229.5 (most Mobil 1 cannot meet this tough spec.) and a Mann fleece oil filter. This oil has been run in cars for 250,000 miles. The oil & filter is changed every 13,000 miles. When the engines are torn down, there is virtually no wear. The synthetic oil contributes no wax and varnish, and only needs to be changed because the additive package in the oil becomes depleted, and it becomes contaminated with the byproducts of combustion. The fleece filter allows more efficient removal of atmospheric particulates, and is necessary for the extended change interval. Conventional paper filters would require oil changes at 5000 miles to avoid excessive sludge formation. The mileage increase is because the adaptive electronics are learning your driving style, quality of fuel used, density altitude, and average temperatures.
Yes, engines today are produced with much finer honing patterns than the old days but that doesn't mean that the motor fully broken in.
The motor is fully broken in. The planar honing is only part of the engineered solution for lower emmissions and greater fuel economy. The pistons and rings are different, the lubrication is different, and the power train electronics are better.
I never said anything about changing the oil at 1K or a special break in oil And the sixties? Sorry, don't know what it was like back then
Exactly. The machining process explained in the patent results in an engine ready to go.
There is no need to ensure that these are properly seated so that down the line, oil consumption won't be a problem? Gas consumption won't be a problem?
Oil consumpion and emissions regulations are the primary reasons for developing the technology. Reducing manufacturing cost was another important part. The rings do not need to MIP (machine in place) the cylinder walls because the walls are already in a condition as if they had been "broken in" by the rings before the piston is inserted for the first time. Fuel consumption is about the same from the start from the engine standpoint. It does improve as the transmission electronics learn your driving style (from grandma to "like you stole it") and adjusts the shift pattern to get a more fuel-efficient car.
The new owner can take it easy with his/her engine, right? Most of your modern MB owners will follow the manual's break in period guidelines or old habits from the past. And some of those, because they were babying the engine too much, cause the seals not to seat properly and have problems with oil consumption and other problems down the road. Those who know how to properly break in an engine will not baby it, but not beat on it. If you search through the board, you'll also notice that gas mileage increases after the engine is "fully broken in", why can't they achieve the same mileage in their new car after they drive it off the lot vs 10k miles?
You should take it how you like it. There are other moving parts of the car that need different "seasoning" to operate to full potential. Moderate driving and brake application should be observed initially, but after a couple hundred miles you can crack the whip.
Now, as to the notion that the engine further machines itself after you get it, consider that it is filled with Mobil 1 0W - 40 that meets Mercedes specification sheet 229.5 (most Mobil 1 cannot meet this tough spec.) and a Mann fleece oil filter. This oil has been run in cars for 250,000 miles. The oil & filter is changed every 13,000 miles. When the engines are torn down, there is virtually no wear. The synthetic oil contributes no wax and varnish, and only needs to be changed because the additive package in the oil becomes depleted, and it becomes contaminated with the byproducts of combustion. The fleece filter allows more efficient removal of atmospheric particulates, and is necessary for the extended change interval. Conventional paper filters would require oil changes at 5000 miles to avoid excessive sludge formation. The mileage increase is because the adaptive electronics are learning your driving style, quality of fuel used, density altitude, and average temperatures.Yes, engines today are produced with much finer honing patterns than the old days but that doesn't mean that the motor fully broken in.
The motor is fully broken in. The planar honing is only part of the engineered solution for lower emmissions and greater fuel economy. The pistons and rings are different, the lubrication is different, and the power train electronics are better.
I never said anything about changing the oil at 1K or a special break in oil
And the sixties? Sorry, don't know what it was like back then 
I am still wondering who killed President Kennedy, and why we thought 50,000 Americans should die fighting communism.
Last edited by Moviela; Feb 25, 2007 at 12:25 PM.
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From: Orange County,New York
Hi guys,
I just bought a 2007 C230 Sport and am a bit dissappointed in its lack of "oomph" off the lights. I was curious if they make a performance chip for these cars or other quick fix to increase the throttle response?
The car is an automatic, loaded and was a dealer demo so it came "new" with about 300 miles on it and now has about 500 miles on it total.
I could swear that once in a blue moon I stomp on the gas from a dead standstill and the car takes off like I would have expected and think to myself what I did to make it do that but can never seem to recreate that. Normally its pretty slow off the lights but I feel like its potential is being overridden by some type of limiter or electronic gadget.
Any ideas?
Phil.
I just bought a 2007 C230 Sport and am a bit dissappointed in its lack of "oomph" off the lights. I was curious if they make a performance chip for these cars or other quick fix to increase the throttle response?
The car is an automatic, loaded and was a dealer demo so it came "new" with about 300 miles on it and now has about 500 miles on it total.
I could swear that once in a blue moon I stomp on the gas from a dead standstill and the car takes off like I would have expected and think to myself what I did to make it do that but can never seem to recreate that. Normally its pretty slow off the lights but I feel like its potential is being overridden by some type of limiter or electronic gadget.
Any ideas?
Phil.
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1959 220S / 1979 230 G / 2002 A210 AMG / 2003 C320 SC / 2004.5 C320 SS / 2005 ML350 SE / 2008 smart
it must be urban legend / myth week at MBWorld !
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: San Diego, CA & San Jose, Costa Rica & Stuttgart, Germany
1959 220S / 1979 230 G / 2002 A210 AMG / 2003 C320 SC / 2004.5 C320 SS / 2005 ML350 SE / 2008 smart
you know you missed me....
staying up late at night crying
let me tell you... it's good to be back...
staying up late at night crying
let me tell you... it's good to be back...
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From: So Cal
2010 RRS ; BMW K1200R; 14 E350 ; 14 RRS on order
Where are you getting this information from? Any Aftermarket parts that can be directly linked to a specific problem can void cost reimbursement on that warranty ONLY. Unless there is a major change in 07 ... Please enlighten us.
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From: San Diego, CA & San Jose, Costa Rica & Stuttgart, Germany
1959 220S / 1979 230 G / 2002 A210 AMG / 2003 C320 SC / 2004.5 C320 SS / 2005 ML350 SE / 2008 smart
you missed the MEMO, trezaei
it's urban legend / myth week on MBWorld !
it's urban legend / myth week on MBWorld !
Member
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From: Orange County,New York
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From: Florida
2007 Mercedes-Benz C230 8K HID's Low Beam & Fog Lights
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Posts: 49
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From: Florida
2007 Mercedes-Benz C230 8K HID's Low Beam & Fog Lights
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Benz refer to this frequently in the owners manual of cars sold this side of the pond.
Is it fair play - No!
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From: Orange County, CA
GMC - Miata - Trek - P-Car
Member #1:
This gentleman was getting jacked around by his Service Advisor at a MB dealership that had damaged his car while in for service. When they balked at repairing it, he personally spoke with the owner of the dealership while “accidentally” wearing his badge. The owner promptly sang a different tune when he called the member's office and the receptionist answered, "District Attorney's Office, Consumer Protection Division".
Member #2:
Another fellow installed an aftermarket crank pulley on his otherwise stock W211 E55. When the rear sub-frame mount failed, as has been documented to occur with some regularity on that chassis, his warranty was deemed void (Status 8) because he had slightly modified the engine.
Reference:https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/230979-bs-warranty-denial-b-c-renntech-pulley.html
The decision making process of whether to cover repairs is seemingly subjective. Several here have modified their cars yet have had no trouble obtaining legitimate warranty repairs. Others have not been so fortunate.
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From: Orange County,New York
From MB
Models 129, 163, 168, 169, 170, 171, 202, 203, 208, 209, 210, 211, 215, 220, 230, 245, 460, 461, 463.
S100. 10 P 0004A OF07 16 P 1000 02A
“With the spread of supercharger gasoline engines and diesel engines with electronic engine control units the accessory industry has increased its effort to further increase the power and torque of the engines by Chip tuning as it is know.
This has resulted in increase damage patterns when analyzing guarantee returns, we would therefore point out at this point that nothing has changed in the rejecting posture of our company towards such modifications. The layout of the individual components in the engine control and drive train have been matched to one another for maximum comfort and durability and are specified in the model approval process.
Any subsequent modifications to the vehicle of his type or use of parts from other companies which have not been tested and approved reduce the safety reserves provided by the manufacturer. This leads to invalidation of the operating permit for the affected vehicle, moreover, all claims for warranty or goodwill as well as product liability claims are invalidated.”
Models 129, 163, 168, 169, 170, 171, 202, 203, 208, 209, 210, 211, 215, 220, 230, 245, 460, 461, 463.
S100. 10 P 0004A OF07 16 P 1000 02A
“With the spread of supercharger gasoline engines and diesel engines with electronic engine control units the accessory industry has increased its effort to further increase the power and torque of the engines by Chip tuning as it is know.
This has resulted in increase damage patterns when analyzing guarantee returns, we would therefore point out at this point that nothing has changed in the rejecting posture of our company towards such modifications. The layout of the individual components in the engine control and drive train have been matched to one another for maximum comfort and durability and are specified in the model approval process.
Any subsequent modifications to the vehicle of his type or use of parts from other companies which have not been tested and approved reduce the safety reserves provided by the manufacturer. This leads to invalidation of the operating permit for the affected vehicle, moreover, all claims for warranty or goodwill as well as product liability claims are invalidated.”
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
I have lived in the US and love the place amongst other countries like Italy , Thailand & Brasil, but it would still worry me that O J Simpson is wandering the golf courses in your neck of the woods. It's not perfect.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
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From: Corona, CA
03 g35 coupe...........02 c32 Sold
there is warranty protection under the Magnuson-Moss Act. Its not subjective, its relatively clear cut.
Here's a simplified version off the tc forums.
Basically for example if you have warranty and you get coilovers for your car. Then engine fails, they can't void your engine warranty. They can however void your suspension warranty since you modifed it with a aftermarket part if part your suspension fails.
Any SA and techican drones will just say it voids your warranty because thats what there trained to say or dont bother to know the law. But if you get a general manager who is more familiar with the law, he will also stimpulate to this. However, its just easier not to put aftermarket parts until your warranty is up.
Basically in court the burden of proof lies on the dealership to prove that aftermarket part caused the damage. At the dealership, its on you.
Here's a simplified version off the tc forums.
Disclaimer: For the official wording and language about the Magnuson-Moss act please refer to the Federal Trade Commission Website: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...s/warranty.htm
It is common for new car owners to be concerned about modifying their car and worrying about voiding there warranty. The following should be good information to consider if you?re worrying about that next modification.
Although the Magnuson-Moss Act was a law designed to protect consumers for any product worth over $25, it has become a large part of the automotive industry. We have all heard of stories in which dealerships have refused to honor a warranty because of modification to the vehicle. Under the Magnusson-Moss Act, a dealership or manufacturer cannot deny warranty coverage solely because the consumer has installed aftermarket parts. This does not give tuners an excuse though, to throw anything they want on the car. If the manufacturer or dealership determines the mechanical problem is fully or even partially due to an aftermarket part, they have the legal right to deny coverage or repair under the warranty. The purpose of the act, in regards to automobiles, is so manufacturers cannot require consumers to purchase the OEM parts. If you decide to use a Fram or Mobil 1 oil filter as opposed to the factory oil filter, this is where the act will protect you by not voiding your warranty. What this all means is that, although you can modify your vehicle with aftermarket parts, you should make sure you being smart about your modifications. No need to waste a good warranty while it?s there.
It is common for new car owners to be concerned about modifying their car and worrying about voiding there warranty. The following should be good information to consider if you?re worrying about that next modification.
Although the Magnuson-Moss Act was a law designed to protect consumers for any product worth over $25, it has become a large part of the automotive industry. We have all heard of stories in which dealerships have refused to honor a warranty because of modification to the vehicle. Under the Magnusson-Moss Act, a dealership or manufacturer cannot deny warranty coverage solely because the consumer has installed aftermarket parts. This does not give tuners an excuse though, to throw anything they want on the car. If the manufacturer or dealership determines the mechanical problem is fully or even partially due to an aftermarket part, they have the legal right to deny coverage or repair under the warranty. The purpose of the act, in regards to automobiles, is so manufacturers cannot require consumers to purchase the OEM parts. If you decide to use a Fram or Mobil 1 oil filter as opposed to the factory oil filter, this is where the act will protect you by not voiding your warranty. What this all means is that, although you can modify your vehicle with aftermarket parts, you should make sure you being smart about your modifications. No need to waste a good warranty while it?s there.
Any SA and techican drones will just say it voids your warranty because thats what there trained to say or dont bother to know the law. But if you get a general manager who is more familiar with the law, he will also stimpulate to this. However, its just easier not to put aftermarket parts until your warranty is up.
Basically in court the burden of proof lies on the dealership to prove that aftermarket part caused the damage. At the dealership, its on you.
Last edited by TemjinX2; Aug 21, 2008 at 04:09 AM.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,263
Likes: 169
From: So. Oregon Coast
C230 Sport Coup + 2006 W164 ML350 + 99 Ford Escort RIP
I've had my car serviced with CO's installed, they replaced suspension components, and never said a word.
But, I used to swap the pulley before going in for service.
And good thing I did, as the service sheet has a spot to
not repair stuff for exactly that reason.
They were hip to that apparently, but not the CO's.
But, I used to swap the pulley before going in for service.
And good thing I did, as the service sheet has a spot to
not repair stuff for exactly that reason.
They were hip to that apparently, but not the CO's.
there is warranty protection under the Magnuson-Moss Act. Its not subjective, its relatively clear cut.
Here's a simplified version off the tc forums.
Basically for example if you have warranty and you get coilovers for your car. Then engine fails, they can't void your engine warranty. They can however void your suspension warranty since you modifed it with a aftermarket part if part your suspension fails.
Any SA and techican drones will just say it voids your warranty because thats what there trained to say or dont bother to know the law. But if you get a general manager who is more familiar with the law, he will also stimpulate to this. However, its just easier not to put aftermarket parts until your warranty is up.
Basically in court the burden of proof lies on the dealership to prove that aftermarket part caused the damage. At the dealership, its on you.
Here's a simplified version off the tc forums.
Basically for example if you have warranty and you get coilovers for your car. Then engine fails, they can't void your engine warranty. They can however void your suspension warranty since you modifed it with a aftermarket part if part your suspension fails.
Any SA and techican drones will just say it voids your warranty because thats what there trained to say or dont bother to know the law. But if you get a general manager who is more familiar with the law, he will also stimpulate to this. However, its just easier not to put aftermarket parts until your warranty is up.
Basically in court the burden of proof lies on the dealership to prove that aftermarket part caused the damage. At the dealership, its on you.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19,942
Likes: 192
From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
there is warranty protection under the Magnuson-Moss Act. Its not subjective, its relatively clear cut.
Here's a simplified version off the tc forums.
Basically for example if you have warranty and you get coilovers for your car. Then engine fails, they can't void your engine warranty. They can however void your suspension warranty since you modifed it with a aftermarket part if part your suspension fails.
Any SA and techican drones will just say it voids your warranty because thats what there trained to say or dont bother to know the law. But if you get a general manager who is more familiar with the law, he will also stimpulate to this. However, its just easier not to put aftermarket parts until your warranty is up.
Basically in court the burden of proof lies on the dealership to prove that aftermarket part caused the damage. At the dealership, its on you.
Here's a simplified version off the tc forums.
Basically for example if you have warranty and you get coilovers for your car. Then engine fails, they can't void your engine warranty. They can however void your suspension warranty since you modifed it with a aftermarket part if part your suspension fails.
Any SA and techican drones will just say it voids your warranty because thats what there trained to say or dont bother to know the law. But if you get a general manager who is more familiar with the law, he will also stimpulate to this. However, its just easier not to put aftermarket parts until your warranty is up.
Basically in court the burden of proof lies on the dealership to prove that aftermarket part caused the damage. At the dealership, its on you.
For offshore forum members please remember that in many markets not servicing the vehicle at a franchise dealership while under warrantee is sufficient to void that warrantee. Australia has put an end to this nonsense as long as you can prove servicing by a competent outfit.
Moral of the story is to understand your local laws regarding warrantee. With today's long warrantees this can mean a lot of money should you have a troublesome vehicle - you don't want that warrantee voided under any circumstances
