Skeeter

*******g hell am I pissed off right now!

My E55 started making noise from the rear. Brought it in. Four days later they find out that it is a bolt that connects the rear sub-frame to the body. There are bolts on both sides of the differential that come up from the sub-frame and screw in to thick body panels... I'll post a pic in a few minutes.

The driver's side bolt somehow pulled through, stripping off all the threads tapped into the body panel. So that side of the sub-frame was floating, totally un-anchored to the car. Scary. You can see the top of the bolt but not the threads, since it ripped the metal it was threaded to off the body panel.

Get this: The the dealer is claiming my Renntech pulley voided my warranty and they aren't going to fix the problem. And it is going to be a very expensive fix.

The service manager was incredibly poorly informed on the law, claiming that any modification to a system automatically voids the warranty on it. I politely explained that I was an attorney and have litigated this before: the law is very clear that the warranty is voided IF and ONLY IF they can prove that the modification was the cause of the failure. In one ear and out the other. He repeated his false claim and told me it was a final decision, already made by MBUSA.

Don't get me wrong, I understand not fixing a car that breaks because if the damage was clearly cause by a mod. Or if I'd busted a cylinder due to running bad f/a mix, I'd say fine, they have an argument.

But the tech manager (nice enough guy) told me that he had never seen this part break and MB had never heard of this problem either. And how many E's with pulleys do you think MB has serviced? Doesn't this suggest to even a slow thinker that the pulley isn't the cause? That the car might not have been built right, or the metal was defective, or some obviously unusual cause other than less than 10% more power the the car was built with?

Does he seriously think he can argue that a 469 HP car (ok, maybe 500 even hp car) was damaged by a mod that added like 30 HP?! Right. Still, I'm going to have to jump through a bunch of *******g hoops to get them to honor their warranty.

If the guy were properly informed as to the law I might not be so angry, but to arrogantly say that this was MB policy and the decision is final, 'any modification means that you now have a limited warranty which doesn't cover the modified system'... Dishonest or misinformed?

It's been a BAD day. Even if the work was covered, they said it'd be a 1-2 week fix. Add in the litigation with MBUSA and I'm going to be stuck in my POS F150 for a month or two.

If MBUSA doesn't do an about-face on this quickly this is the last MB I'm ever going to own. Damn, I have to wait till Monday to even get the ball rolling.

And I don't even romp on my car! No burnouts, never been to the track, just spirited driving on public roads. How the f*ck is the extra power the pulley puts out even involved in the rear end breaking a bolt that connects it to the body if I'm not putting down more power than the car is capable of putting down in stock form?

Does anyone know which way our cars torque the rear end? Looking at the car from behind, if you floor it, would the driver's side axle/wheel want to push down, or would the other side get the rotational down force? Or is this a dumb question? I thought the passenger side tire was the side tire received downward force from the axle/diff, not the driver's side. Am I wrong?

More to come. This is gonna be a doozy. I'm hating life

Skeeter

Addicted2Speed

This is actually nothing out of the ordinary and happens with all brands, not just Mercedes. My father's Porsche Cayenne Turbo had a suspension problem and the dealer tried to claim his warranty was voided because of the aftermarket stereo system. When we asked what the heck a stereo system has to do with suspension, he pretty much had the same response as your dealer "This is Porsche policy, any aftermarket modifications void your warranty". I can tell you that this is going to be a pain in the ***...

Havoc

Sorry to hear about your unexpected and unfortunate situation.
I would imagine there is an MB Dealer out there some where that will honor your warranty. Good Luck!

france2112

You should have told him that you want to see the policy in writing that says your warranty is voided. Also, I would have demanded to see the owner of the dealership or whoever was the highest ranking member of the dealership. Let them know you will fight this and give them very bad press. I would call on Monday before you file suit and speak with the the head of the dealership, explain your position and tell him you want it in writing that an engine modification voids your suspension warranty. Good luck.

Larry

jangy

Question is did they flag your car in the system? If not, move on.

As for the TQ, both sides put down and tend to toe out under power.

Are you running stock tires?

Dude, I really feel for you but you should try to contact RennTech anyway. A good tuner would be proactive in helping you alleviate this issue, especially since it looks like it is straight up.

I asked about the sub as well and it is NOT normal for that bolt to let go. In fact, it is extremely rare and liability can be high so i would assume that MB won't play games. I definitely see no chance of MB rolling over and saying it was a defect without being forced to. It would just open them up for too much liability.

Last question, since I am sure it will come up, have you ever had the rear sub dropped for any work? Replacing bushings, sway bar, etc. all require te sub to be dropped. Are you sure they didn't strip it when they were working on it?

blkamgsl55

Typical MB bull. I once talked to service about adding voice to my E63 Wagon and when I came in for a problem with the power tailgate they asked if I had made any attempt at adding the voice hardware/parts looking for an out. Ten (10) days later they indicated that the car was ready. It was then that I learned that Dieter had to come in from Germany to fix the tailgate. In the process they blew a fuse for the keyless go, buried the 2nd seat cushion release handle under the seat, and couldn't even put the hidden storage compartment back in correctly. Now the cargo cover does not go up when the tailgate is opened. I wonder if Dieter will have to make a return trip to resolve this. Needless to say I am not at all impressed with their attitude or repair expertise.

DFW01E55

Good thing you're a lawyer Skeeter, it will help to keep your costs down.
I'm sure they will claim that the extra torque created the stress which fractured the bolt.

I wonder where you can get the performance limits of the bolt?

sack5000

I would try another MB stealer. Practically, they either didn't "black mark" the car or the new stealer may not even notice when you wheel it in. It is unbeliveable that the stealer would take such an adverse position. Good luck...peel their fuking eyelids off. A good course of action is to call a press conference where you announce that a reputable Mercedes Benz dealer is refusing warranty coverage. They will get on their knees quickly and fix your car...dick heads.

Fikse

what a bummer, hope you get them to come around....

a long time ago, my 3rd gen RX-7's motor blew, they denied the warranty because I had different size wheels on the car.... after showing them that those wheels were available on the RX7 in japan, they did another inspection on the car....

then they said the warranty was void because I had cross drilled brake rotors on the car.... I had the car fixed, paid the bill, hired a lawyer, a few months later I had a check....

splinter

We can almost envision the gears turning. Know you’ll prevail.

Skeeter

Jangy, I PRAY that you are on to something. I'll send you a bottle of Dom P if your hint turns out to the the issue. Mind you I don't know squat about suspensions on our cars. I stopped messing with suspensions after my '69 Charger and don't even know the names of half the parts down there...

Six months back I had new tires put on. In the process they had to re-align the rear tires, which required ordering and installing some bolts (Camber or Caster adjustment I forget), since the stock bolts aren't adjustable. I think the adjustable bolts came from MB. Could one of these be the bolt in question that sheared off the threads? If so, it could be because they were over-tightened and I'd be 100% in the clear! The tire shop would be on the hook! OOOOOOH! Please PLEASE let the be the case...

I'm sure this will be just another false hope. I've had the worst day imaginable. A loved family pet had to be put to sleep. I had to loan $10k (that I don't really have to spare) to a friend who really needs it. And now this.

Thanks to you all for the advice and sympathy.

I was told that they already put the denial in the system. F*ckers. And they did this before the MB rep even came out to look at the car, yet they refused to let me talk to whoever made the decision, insisting it was MBUSA policy to refuse coverage if modifications are made. And around we go... MB of Fremont is WAY more easy to deal with and mod friendly, I should have brought it to them. I never dreamed it'd be this big a deal! How a rattle in the rear be caused by a pulley swap after all?

I'm posting some pics of the area. It isn't broken or sheared. The bolt is intact, it just ripped out the threads that it was threaded into. There is still a chunk of the metal body panel it was threaded into on the end of the bolt. Pics taken in bad lighting with iPhone, so forgive the poor quality.

Maybe someone has a schematic of a W211 rear to post? Can anyone tell me what the name of this bolt is and whether it is involved in setting camber or caster for alignment?

Apologies for not having a spot to host the pictures so they'd show in the post and spare y'all the trouble of downloading them. And continued thanks for your help and advice.

Life sucks and car trouble makes life suck more. Bad...

Skeeter

mbamg06e55

Skeeter...I agree with Jangy. Also I talked with my mechanic at Autobahn in Redwood City. He said that the only reason that would come loose or strip is if someone had dropped the sub maybe to replace the seals in the rear end, or any work on that rear suspension and not done a proper job of reattaching them. Dealers are known to drop the subs to work on them.

He also stated that you would need ALOT more torgue then what you have in there know to shear those bolts. That is a strength point that MB has over designed because of the potential liability.


By the way what dealer did you take it to?

ScottCLS55

I think Finny (a member here) had the same problem, he was making a lot of hp..

Skeeter

MB of SF.... Service center @ Folsom and 11th.

Skeeter

jangy

I don't think that the "crash" bolts would have been one of those. Those bolts are used to slightly shift the connection of the controlling arms to change the angle.

What I was wondering was if the dealer had caused the bolt to let loose. Does it drive the same now as it did when you took it in? I don't really see how the car would have been running properly if the bolt was already torn.

If any of this is helpful, then you may want to consider demanding an explanation as to why they would not have made that diagnosis in the first place? Why would they say they need to replace bushings? I say they replaced the bushings, went for a test ride and tore the nut.

You are a lawyer. You know how the system works. First thing you must do is calm down. It is just a car. Calm down, don't give up, but let it happen in due time.

I feel for your day. Trust me I do. But there is always a brighter side. You aren't the friend that desperately needed (like me) money. Count your blessings and just be objective with this.

DO NOT look for a scapegoat. Separate yourself from the car. Keep the law in mind and go about sending the requisite demand letters, etc. It will all work out.

mbamg06e55

Sh#t. They suck donkey ****. Everyone I know that has taken there cars there have had nothing but problems with that Stealership.

Let me tell you if you do decided the negative publicity watch how fast they will end up talking. Dealers around here in the bay area are hurting for customers as far as service and sales. There are 11 dealers within one hour of each other. Each are scrambling for customers. Any bad publicity is going to hurt them even more then they already are.

cldriver

I thought this law was supposed to stop sh*t like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act

mbamg06e55

The problem is MB says ok. Will see you in court in 2 years. They are pinning their hopes that you just simple say it isn't worth the time and money to pursue it.

blkamgsl55

The reason they are denying your claim is because they don't have a clue on how to fix it! They are just parts changers and this goes beyond a simple parts change. If that bolt or screw as MB calls it was seized to the threaded part that was attached to the floor and they gunned it off it is quite possible that they ripped it from the floor. As for the repair I would probably obtain a large hardened steel washer. To that washer I would weld a nut with the same thread size and pitch as the bolt/screw and then weld this to the floor pan. Any well equipped frame shop could do this rather easily.

jangy

The dealership does not have the authority to do anything. I don't get how the dealer doesn't know how to fix it, but any welder could?

Anyhow, the local MB service rep is the first and last word. If that person has already heard your sob story and still say go to hell, then you need to deal with MBUSA.
Simply send them a demand letter and they will do one of 2 things. They will send you a letter reiterating what the rep already told you (showing solidarity) OR they will pretend that it was a misunderstanding and offer a nice fix.
If you are told to eat it, then you go the paperwork route and at the same time begin consumer complaints.

I'm not a lawyer and do not play one on TV. But my brother is and that comes in handy from time to time.

Fast55

+1. These guys suck. The important thing is if they flagged the car and MB has now given it a "status 8". This is MB speak for "this car has no warranty whatsoever from this point forward". It happened on my blown E430 after I traded it in on my W210 E55 even though there was no issue with the car and it had been returned to stock before the trade. Simply because some douche at Calabasas MB decided to note the FI on a work order while it was in previously getting a failed fuel tank sensor replaced under warranty. Seriously. If that has not happened, take the car elsewhere. This is obviously a dealer that isn't there to help you, warranty or not. I agree with Jangy that most likely this is a result of R&R of these bolts and/or the subframe and a **** poor job of doing it. Good luck, and keep us posted.

BMWEATR

dude, take off the pulley go to a different dealer? also are they a Renn tech dealer? or kleeman? my dealer sells Renn tech right at the dealership! hopfully yours does too?

Skeeter

True, they really had absolutely no idea what to do to make a repair. The car has been on a lift for two days sitting there while they scratched their heads.

MBAMG, I gotta agree that the body part that the bolt threads to looks WAY too thick to strip out like that! Legally there is no precedent set by them fixing this, nor even redesigning the part to make it less failure-prone; courts don't allow this kind of evidence as proof of defect because of this very reason: it discourages them from doing the right thing and fixing things.

And to say it one more time (forgive me): how the HELL could the part stand up to repeated applications of the ~500 HP of a 'normal' E55, but fail so severly with an extra 35-40 HP? Are they really going to argue that such a critical component is that close to the margin of failure?!

Yes, they will indeed rely on the fact that they can wait me out. They loose nothing by delaying, and I end up having to have my car towed to a storage facility until this gets resolved. Driving my CNG powered truck until then. Ah, they screwed me good on this one.

Thanks to all, your posts are really, truly helping. Jangy, I appreciate the advice greatly. Their story was that the concluded it was the bushing, ordrered it, but when they got to replacing it they saw that it wasn't attached to anything at the top and found the ripped body part & stripped bolt. It'd be impossible to prove otherwise, alas. How can I prove that they proactively broke something and are denying it as well as the warranty claim? Not gonna happen alas.

It hasn't been fixed so I can't say whether it drives differently than when I brought it in. But I drove it around for a few days while it was making this noise and, noise aside, it drove fine. Tracked straight, braked stright, cornered normally, etc.

From an evidentiary perspective though, there's no way I could prove that they caused the damage. Not without a half-dozen depositions/trial with a Perry Mason moment, never happens in real life

Plus, I have a black mark on the car in MB's system now. I guess I could switch the pulley back once this is resolved in my favor. Then they could hardly blame a failure on the fact that I used to have a Renntech pulley installed!

Gotta find a way to bring some pain to this dealership. Or the service manager. Honestly, I've never been talked to like an idiot like that before. You know that corporate policy babble you get from customer service reps who don't konw the law? That's what it was like. Maybe there is a legal fee clause, or damages from wrongly witholding service. True, Monday I need to go in and get their 'policy' in writing.

Gratefully,
Skeeter

DFW01E55

That extra hp and tq is less than 10% of the standard load. I wonder if MBUSA would respond better if they knew you were going to notify the NTSB about a likely manufacturers defect that wouhld cause the rear end to fall off without warning at highway speeds?
Guaranteed there are other cases of this on record and you might argue that it only applies to the AMG line and MB is negligent in putting such a low tolerance bolt/thread in a high stress area.

jmf003

Skeeter, based on what you've written Jangy's explanation--namely, the dealer broke your car--is by far the most plausible.

The first step in any repair procedure is to inspect the vehicle. Without an inspection they cannot diagnose the problem and determine which repair procedure--out of hundreds of possible repair procedures--to perform. In your case, they must have done enough of an inspection to diagnose a problem with the bushing.

If catastrophic vehicle damage had existed during that initial inspection, they would have seen it. How could they not? The car is there on the hoist, sub-frame hanging in space, and they don't see it? No way!

Since they did enough of an inspection to identify a problem with the bushing and since that inspection did not discover catastrophic vehicle damage that would have been obvious, the only reasonable conclusion is that the catastrophic vehicle damage did not exist at that time. It must have been caused later which, in turn, means the dealer's staff must have caused it.

It's easy to see how that could happen. A mechanic gets a little careless with a high power impact wrench and breaks the bolt or strips the threads, then causes more damage trying to undo that initial mistake.

The dealer's subsequent behavior is also consistent with them damaging the car then trying to direct attention away from themselves. It's patently obvious that an overdrive crankshaft pulley is not going to cause frame/body damage. Yet they reported this unrelated and relatively minor pulley modification to MBUSA? That just screams "red herring."

And they're also telling you it's a "final decision, already made by MBUSA" when that's obviously not true? If their hands were clean, they have no reason for trying to cut short an MB investigation. On the other hand, if they broke your car and were trying to duck responsibility for it they'd have every reason in the world to try to cut short an MB investigation.

Hope that helps. Good luck!