Benzer

I read many old posts but still can't understand.

Is the touchshift the same as what race cars are using now aday.

Excuse my ignorant but I want to learn

I use the touch shift when I can and I feel that it is good with out the clutch to wrestle with, Our touch ****f is nowhere like the the one i had on the Orange Red 1973 VW Beetle back in college day. That is to say ours is really good

Peace

avlis

Touchshift is not the same as in race cars. Touchshift is an automatic transmission, race cars have a manual trans with a "robotic" shifter.

Automatic trans robs more power from the engine. Manual trans gives the driver more control of the timing of the shifts. The automatic has a delay between the time you nudge the lever to the time the gear is changed. Touchshift doesn't really do anything that older automatics couldn't do in terms of manually overriding the gear changes. It's just a little easier now. These manually shifting automatics are just a marketing ploy to get sports car people excited about automatic transmissions.

session

avlis is correct.

to add to his post, the touchshift transmission actually does not even change gears. you have no direct input as to when the car changes gears. what it allows you to do, according to the owner's manual, is select a RANGE of gears in which the automatic tranny operates in. when you "shift" left, you take the range of gears from 1-5 to 1-4, and the automatic transmission then decides (if it's safe to do so) to switch to 4th gear.

this is why when you upshift, it doesn't automatically change gears. it simply increases the range of gears the automatic can choose from.

the manual transmission is totally different, as the driver has direct control of when and what gear to shift to.

trench

To be effective a transmission needs a device to prevent the engine from stalling when the car isn't in motion.

An automatic transmission uses something called a torque converter. This is a fluid coupling device that allows the engine to spin somewhat independently of the transmission. If the engine is turning slowly there is very little torque passed through the torque converter (and keeping a foot on the brake allows the engine to spin while the wheels stay stopped). When the accelerator is pressed the engine speeds up and pumps more fluid into the torque converter, allowing it to transmit more torque to the wheels.

True "auto shifting manual" transmissions such as in race cars and some road car systems (BMW's) use a clutch to disengage the engine from the transmission. The reason why a clutch-type system is considered better is that there is some power loss associated with a torque converter. (Although at low speeds modern torque converters can deliver torque more efficiently at high engine speeds and low transmission speeds - which is why an automatic usually launches better from a dead stop.)

Cheers, BT

taylor192

Although MB auto trannys seem to be really well made and can shift with the best of them when left alone, the touch shift is actually slower if you're using it to accelerate, but is a good alternative for cornering when you want to hold a gear.

If you want to shift yourself, get a manual, its way more fun and has a better response (unless you can get a Ferrari with a true F1 style trans)

MB-BOB

"WHy is the Manny considered BETTER than the Touch Shift ???"

Well, ask this question on any of the other forums and you'll get blank stares. SOME consider the Manual to be better than Touch Shift on this forum, but certainly not all...

CitronC230K_03

the race cars today are using formula 1 type shifting where you tap paddles on the steering wheel in order to shift up and down. i read that the SL55 wil have the formula 1 shifting paddles on the sterring wheel. this is basically a clutchless manual transmission from what i understand. the touch shift with the auto trans is not the same as the formula 1 type shifting seen in race cars and many production sports cars today. personally i like the manual transmission as it does allow the driver more control over the engine. whether it be a standard clutch type transmission or formula 1 type shifting. thats just me though and since the C230 only has the option of standard clutch type manual trans or touch shift i went w/ the 6 speed.

trench

The SL55, although it has F1-like fingertip shifters, uses a transmission with a torque converter, so it is still an automatic transmission. The AMG modified Touchshift transmission does feature torque converter lockup - which minimizes the power lost through the torque converter.

Although certain transmissions are called "clutchless," this type of transmission still uses a clutch - it's just operated hydraulically by the car's transmission when told to shift and not by the driver via a pedal. BMW's SMG (sequential manual gearbox) is such a transmission - the computer controlling the transmission even blips the throttle to match revs on downshifts.

Cheers, BT

CitronC230K_03

i see! so the SL55 would do better if it had a truely clutchless trans? you would think that MB would atleast offer that option in NA to enthusiasts w. the $$$. dont they offer a clutchless manual or even a manual w/ clutch trans in Europe?

trench

They don't have the option of a true sequential gearbox in Europe either.

In Formula One they pretty much have to use computer controlled transmissions to prevent the driver from blowing up a super-expensive motor by missing a shift. For the SL55 they get around the fact that some power is lost to an automatic by simply having a ridiculous amount of power to begin with. For BMW, the SMG transmissions although technologically cool are still mostly a marketing tool (as avlis mentioned), as most drivers won't be utilizing the superior characteristics of the transmission in day to day driving. In fact, the average driver could probably drive a C32 Touchshift better than a BMW M3 equipped with either the SMG or a standard manual.

Cheers, BT

Buellwinkle

That's an easy one, because it costs $1,200 less, has that retro look and everyone knows that 6-spds are cool! If you've been driving one for many years it's just second nature, don't even think about it.

In winding mountain roads it's great because you don't lose RPM when you let go of the gas on tight turns and you want to punch it coming out of the turn. Yes you can do that with an automatic, just not predictable like a manual is. The touchshift doesn't always do what you want, something that would scare me on mountain road with a 2000' vertical drop on one side and a granite wall on the other. Also if you are a more sophisticated driver, you can induce oversteer (kick out the tail) with the clutch while downshifting in a turn and using the clutch to swing out the rear, this is key as most "sports cars" have a hand brake to do the same thing, the Coupe doesn't. Now don't get me wrong, this may account for less than 1% of my driving, but it's the 1% that makes driving a sport, not just transportation.

young

what about the rumors that all the M series cars will lose manual trannies in favor of the SMG?

my point is that whether people like it or not, smg is probably not going away nor is it really just marketing. i understand if people don't like it though.

trench

My guess is for the same reason F1-cars use them - to prevent engine blow-ups with a bad shift. Weren't the newer M3s having problems with people wrecking the motors with bad shifts?

If comparing a regular automatic transmission to a SMG-type one, the SMG is indeed technologically superior (and more expensive) but the overall benefits are rather minimal, hence marketing. Since the SMG can also mimic the function of a fully automatic transmission it allows the car maker to only have to put one transmission into a car - should be a good savings from a manufacturing point of view. Purists get a "manual" with no clutch pedal - while the lazy driver can let the car shift the gears.

Cheers, BT

young

i think that's where it's coming from. the initial letter sent out by bmw seems to basically say that people didn't know how to shift properly. smg would help alleviate poor driving skills.

vadim

So we won't be able to order a "true" manny on an M even if we sign a waiver?

tberry

I read a pretty good article on SMG (6spd one on new M3) and it is soooo complicated to 'setup' that a manual is easier to drive. On the other hand alot if not all race cars (included American drag cars) have racing automatic trannies now aday (not to be confused with our slushboxes). but for street racers nothing beats a manny i admit. If i gether enough money for 2nd car it'll be manny for sure. And i got to say after 1200miles i start playing with the touch shift and holy$**** it LAGs and unpredictable. Audi tiptronic is sooo much better IMO (same tranny on Porsche Boxter).
I guess i'll play around abit more but one time i was on HWY and need to punch it so i pulled to left and held 2 sec at about 55-60mph i think it dropped to 2nd which put the car in red about 500rpm! scared the crapped outta me. I thought it would put it in 'optimal gear'......weird.

Mike T.

No, the problem appears to be bad engine design in the area of crankshaft/big end bearings. In none of the 100 cases that Jason has documented on the following site:

http://members.roadfly.org/jason/m3engines.htm

...has the engine failure been linked to owner abuse. That is not for lack of the dealers trying to blame the drivers. But about half the recent failures are in SMG II (Sequential Manual Gearbox, version 2)cars, and these cars are programmed not to over-rev. Some do, however, another design flaw.

There are now 105 M3 engine failures (the latest 5 are being added to Jason's list once the dealers confirm catastrophic engine beraing failure).

JustinTRW

Actually, the SMG system costs BMW less to build than their regular 6-speed. They charge $2400 to recover development costs.

I've never driven a touchshift car, but the AMG speedshift system is better than Audi/Porsche Tiptronic or BMW steptronic. The 1st to 2nd shift under full throttle feels very quick for an auto.

On the other hand, the SMG M3 I drove was great. The only flaw is that you cannot launch the car very hard from a standstill even when using launch control. I could only muster something like 2k rpm before "dropping" the clutch. The other element is that if you don't care about on-track perfection (perfect downshifts, never missing a gear) then it is not as fun as a regular 6-speed.

young

the touchshift is much better than the bmw craptronic...

JustinTRW

Buellwinkle,

With speedshift I can choose the gear I want and hold it until redline, it works as well as you can expect an auto to. You use those rally techniques? I don't have a manual tranny to play with at home, so I can barely rev-match precisely when flying into a turn when I get the chance. Does the lack of a "hand" brake annoy you? Well, at least it is a savior from abusing your car in that way.

Young, let me tell you one experience. I was accelerating hard in D mode and lifted at about 5k rpm. The tranny held it there forever until I was freaked out and tapped the throttle gently three or four times. Finally it upshifted. When it knows you want aggressive mapping, it gives it to you. Keep in mind of course, that you can make it do this everytime by manually selecting a gear.

tberry

i dont think u can compare AMG speedshift to regular tiptronic and steptronic. Since the speedshift is higher end it should be more compared to the new CVT or S4 tiptronic (which stated to have user programable) and to SMG II. According to BMW you can do 5k rpm launches with SMG II....up to like 20 times over its life.........and it wont let you do certain things for like hours after that.........again very complicated system.

JustinTRW

CVT is not a conventional auto, so it should be left out of this IMO. There is not torque convertor. You shouldn't compare SMGII to it either because one is a manual and one is still an auto. And the 5k launches are only for Europe, the U.S. models get less than half that but with no restriction.

trench

Interesting, I didn't know that it was actually cheaper to build (just knew they charged a pretty penny for it). Of course they're always going to charge more for it (even after they've recouped the development costs) even if it is cheaper to build .

- BT

JustinTRW

Not to mention less moving parts and less human error, it will save BMW money in the future. No wonder they are going all SMG on future M-cars.

Lynn

Anyone have a link to an article about the SMG II? I don't see how it can be cheaper and have fewer moving parts than the manny, if it is anything like Sequentronic.