maryjcl

Why is it that people automatically assume that Mercedes should still pay 100% of the cost if the car is out of warranty?

I understand that there is a reasonable expectation that a motor should last 100k miles without significant issues. But that being said, there are two things to bear in mind: (1) any car can break, and anything on that car can break (for example, my parents' 2001 Subaru Forester w/ 68k miles, dealer serviced, needs head gaskets. Is Subaru a piece of ****?); and (2) unless the dealer has seen the car for every service since new, how can they really know what happened? I am not saying the people here are being dishonest, but how do they know you have serviced the car properly, haven't raced it, etc? Should anyone who shows up at a Mercedes dealer with a car with sub-100k mileage get anything he or she wants repaired for free because the owner thinks that is the only fair result, irrespective of the car's history?

Again, I agree with the general sentiment that these motors should last. But people also need to be realistic enough to understand that all cars break, and warranties are a risk-allocation mechanism. At some point, the manufacturer will shift the risk to you, and you have to understand what this means, in dollars and cents. If you're not comfortable with when that risk shifts, buy an extended warrranty. And if the manufacturer offers to pay 100% of the parts and 25% of the labor on a car that is out of warranty, save yourself the time and aggravation, and take the deal, because it's a good one. Mercedes is not a cheap car to fix, and they are doing more than they really have to do. If you still don't feel right about the situation, then sell the car immediately thereafter.

After a while, people come off as a bunch of crybabies. You bought an expensive car. When that expensive car breaks, even if it breaks sooner than you think it should, it will be expensive to fix. If you can't deal with that reality, or don't have the money to deal with it, it doesn't make you a bad person, but drive something else. Stated differently, you have no entitlement to free repairs outside of warranty, and your best course would be to be polite, reasonable, and persistent and see where that gets you. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

For those of you having this issue, I sincerely wish you good luck with it. But I think if you read and digest the above, you will be better positioned to have such luck than if you go in with a nasty, entitlement attitude. And if you dispute the charge, this will buy you some time, and Amex may or may not agree with you. But if they do, the dealer will certainly come after you. You are familiar with the concept of mechanic's liens and things of that ilk, aren't you? All this aggravation for 75% of a labor bill, instead of trying to work things out like an adult . . . .

edd1e22

Marycjl....if you actually took the time to read the thread instead of ramble on a long monologue you might actually learn something. The actual complaint is a head FAILURE due to MANUFACTURER'S DEFECT. If my head gasket failed then tough ****....I'd pay it. They had to replace my ENTIRE HEAD assembly.

Do you think they are repairing my car with free parts and 1/4 labor out of the kindness of their heart???? They are doing it because if they didn't, I'd fukin sue their *** and they may have a class action suit on their hands.

It has documented here and at the dealer that there is a valve spring or seat that is defective causing you to lose compression and eventually have to get your head replaced. Unfortunately/fortunately, this is not with every car so they will not issue a recall.

For me, they basically brought the cost down to where they knew it would not be worth my time to litigate and told me to go and pound sand. I know of another guy who had 60k instead of my 75k and they did all the work free of charge.

maryjcl

Your friend probably got 100% coverage because I am guessing he serviced the car there all the time, had a polite relationship with the service advisor, and didn't scream like a baby when the problem arose. You, on the other hand . . . .

As to the substance of your post:

Actually, I am am attorney and I have experience with issues similar to this, so please don't presume to tell me what their motivations are. I have a far greater understanding of the costs to them, and to you, than you probably realize. And, I will tell you that the costs of litigating this with any reputable attorney would far exceed 100% of the parts and 100% of the labor that you are asking MB to provide here, so yes, they are doing more than they have to do. Stated differently, even if they did NOTHING, it would not be worth it for you to sue, economically, so the outcome you got is far better than any you would receive in any litigated action, accounting for costs involved. (This assumes you understand the costs involved in litigation and would hire a decent lawyer.)

Of course, there will be those who think, "let's do a class action", due to this "manufacturing defect." Tell me how you plan on proving it is such a defect. Hence your little poll here, but I can tell you that there are serious impediments to such a suit, although I gather you are in California, so who the hell knows, and you can probably find some bottom feeder to try. This of course, assumes that Mercedes doesn't have anyone in-house or on retainer that knows anything about how to defeat such suits . . . .

So yes, keep crying like a baby and demanding that things that are out of warranty be paid for as if they are under warranty. I am sure you will get far. Keep yelling that it is a manufacturing defect without understanding what that term means, and that, in legal terms, it is difficult to demonstrate factually given your information position vis a vis the factory. Keep up the talk of "class action" and make sure you tell that to the dealer and MBUSA -- they'll laugh at you and tell you to go pound sand, and in the interim, how are people going to get their cars fixed when Mercedes adopts a more defensive posture due to litigation?

I am waiting for the post where you ask for help about how to lift a mechanic's lien . . . . .

And, on a less sarcastic note, I do genuinely wish you well with this problem. It shouldn't happen, and it sucks. But manufacturers, all of them, will not continue to offer 100% coverage after warranties expire, even if there are problems that are common failures which is very different from having them acknowledge that something is a defect.

For those of you who have this engine in your car, I would suggest the best way not to have a problem is to follow the manufacturer's service guidelines, bring the car to the same Mercedes dealer for service, and make sure you have a good relationship with the advisor. Palm him or her a $20 once in a while and say "thank you." If this problem does happen with your car, I think you will have a far better outcome with this approach then making demands that you have no legal right to make.

It's just reality.

izzymb

Year:2003
Model:c230 coupe
Mileage when issue occured:53000
Resolution:needs new head
Dealership:northwest arkansas mercedes.

Have had hose, 2 O2 sensor replaced, now 3000 miles past warranty carbon build up I need a new head. $4200+ to fix.

My dealership has been great throughout, but now I have to fight with MBUSA.

scottisha

Update...was at 118k miles at the beginning of Dec. Just turned over 127k today.

I'm having an issue with my car's computer not recognizing the ESC computer. I get an ESC malfunction message, and car's ESP/ESC is disabled, but car still runs fine otherwise. I've actually had this issue for months, and have had my mechanic do a diagnostics on it twice to be sure of the problem, but I'm not fixing it until it becomes a bigger issue.

I'm still having almost 100% trouble free ownership. Just the issue with the alternator sprag bearing and the issue with my ESC.

Still driving on the factory clutch too.

I am however, about to put on my 12th set of rear tires.

Kristen

No compression on cylinder #3.

Needs a valve job or new head, sourcing a used head is difficult, looking up pricing on a new one.
Alternative is to replace the engine with a low mileage one, $3800 + labour.

scottisha

My MB mechanic has a head from the M271 he's replacing under the extended warranty. The problem was carbon build up on one of the valve guides. The lady who owns the car drives only a few miles to and from work. Maybe her premature carbon build up is due to her lack of getting the car out on the highway and opening it up.

I just had the recall work done today to replace those two PCV hoses (whatever they are) and my driver's side air bag.
I had my cam sensor thingies replaced on Monday. My original cam sensors/plugs had 131k miles on them with not a single drop of oil. I replaced them anyways and I'll keep the old ones as back up.
I drive my car pretty hard, but not in an abusive way. I usually do 90-100 at some point on the 57 mile drive to work, so I really open it up on a regular basis. I have driven all my cars like this and so far, so good.
I'm still on my stock clutch too.
I think those of you that drive less than 15 minutes at a time are probably doing damage and creating more wear than those that drive longer each trip.

I'm knocking on wood of course.....

Scott

Kristen

Trust me, this car gets driven hard. 25 mins each way to work, 140 kmph on the highway.

I think the issue is a problem that's been compounded over the past year. The CEL had been tripped since last spring, with the dealer unable to diagnose why and replacing all kinds of parts without resolving anything. It wasn't until the fall when someone posted the leaking cam sensor issue that I found the problem and finally got it all fixed. So 6 months of driving with a rough idle has probably compounded the problem.

scottisha

Yeah, that would probably cause an issue over time.

Good to hear that you keep that crap from building up on your motor by NOT driving like an old lady.

Scott

tyronewheatley

58k miles... cylinder head replaced!!!

scottisha

Do you guys not drive your cars hard or fast? Do you ever get your car over 5000rpms?
I'm just wondering. I drive my car pretty hard, and I have not had any issues other than wear and tear and my alternator's sprag bearing.
I have had an ESP malfunction warning for the past 50k miles, but it doesn't affect my ability to get around, so I'm not in a hurry to get it fixed.
I'm at 135k miles.

cmg0110

Year: 2003
Model: c230 coupe M271
Mileage when issue occurred: 55,100
Dealership: San Francisco Mercedes Benz - (Purchased & Warranty Repairs)
Resolution: Partial Repair Costs Paid by MB - (Parts only & loaner car)Warranty expired in 12/07.

Check engine light came on and took to MB San Francisco. MB indicated the car has a burned cylinder valve seat, requiring replacement of the cylinder and cylinder head.

I asked what would cause this and he indicated that it could be due to city driving at high revs and/or use of low octane gas, (none of these are true, my wife drives like an old lady and uses 91 octane).

According to the service manager, Mercedes Benz acknowledges a problem with this engine, however it does not rate a recall.

The service manager said he was able to get MB to agree to a partial remedy, (only done on a case by case basis), which is to:

- Pay for parts to fix car - indicates $3,500
- Provide a loaner car for the duration of repairs

I also found in some cases that MB will pay for 25% of labor, but I could not get the service manager to agree to this. Labor charge will be $2,400 out of pocket.

Service manager also told me it would not be worth my time to take my case directly to MB as they would only refer the issue back to MB San Francisco.

johnp

"04 (pre-facelift)Kompressor sedan (6MT) . Check engine lite came on @ 43K. Dealer advised carbon build up on valves. Fixed under warranty. Was the last straw with this car. Traded in for a Lexus .

amanonfire

I had an entire M271 replaced for 20hrs labor, including pulling the head to determine the problem. Replacing the head should be 10-15 hrs labor, get a quote, that sounds like a rip-off still.

SteveAustin

Year: 2005
Model: C230WZ
Dealership: MB of Portland

First:
Mileage when issue occured: 6,641, May 20, 2005
Resolution: R&R Spark Plugs and borescoped cylinders, carbon build up on valve stems

Second:
Mileage when issue occured: 14,666 March 29, 2006
Resolution: Check Engine light - replaced spark plugs, cylinder 2 was misfiring.

Third:
Mileage when issue occured: 22,610 May 2, 2007
Resolution: Check Engine light - CE Light, cylinder 2 rebuilt and all engine valves replaced, replaced spark plugs and all rings/seals

ntiare

First of all I have always had my car serviced by my trusted mechanic for years and only went to MBZ dealer when my 2003 needed minor things and when my car was still under warranty. Recently in April I was called into MBZ for a recall on a vacuum hose, when I was leaving I got the good ole hey wait a minute let me show you something, I thought oh no what are they going to try and get me to leave my car to do now? He mentions the Mag Cam sensors and that oil could get into my engine..ok fair enough, I saw the serv bulletin on that but here I am a few months later and I’m driving and my car starts shaking ,idling strange and then I take it to my mechanic and he figured it at first glance it may be worn valve seals and I said ok let's change them and put in new plugs too...then he checks the compression and discovers that it is half of what it should be, WHAT? Why should the cylinder heads be worn and need to be replaced for nearly $3000, this has nothing to do with Mag Cams and why didn't MBZ check my compression or inform me during inspection that this problem was on the verge of happening ...this seems to be happening too many owners of this model on here and other forums. This should be recognized by MBZ as a defect and since when do engines fail at 50,000or even 80,000? My mechanic is honest and said this should be paid for by them, he is also a longtime MBZ owner and said this is ridiculous and should not be happening at this mileage!! DEFECT,FLAW IN DESIGN...Step up and admit it MERCEDES HEADQUARTERS.

Why is it that there is an inconsistency on how this problem is recognized by the dealer and handled. Some on here said that the dealer SCREWED them if the 50,000 warranty is over and others have had the parts only paid for by the dealer (what's that about?) and others have had the whole thing paid!! Anyone else have this problem and ready to make a bigger deal out of how often it’s happening. This must be a major defect in the engine design, especially given the fact that they supposedly redesigned it for 2005 models. This also happened to me right after they brought me into Autobahn Mercedes in San Mateo for this Vacuum Hose "recall"... Why should I come out of pocket for an obvious and serious engine flaw?

Anybody, somebody chime in and please help me with some recourse and/or join me and making this a huge complaint/lawsuit...HOW MANY OTHERS HAS THIS HAPPENED TO OUT THERE? Did your engine fall apart before hitting $80,000 and are you going to just dish out $3,000 or more or require MBZ to pay for it like they should!!?

C230 Sport Coup

The head design was fixed in late 2004.
MANY people have had this.
All the hubbabulloo about the MFD I had to scratch my head why no one was
starting a class action about the M271 head.
I have a friend who has had this issue.

Glyn M Ruck

We had one in the family - March 2004 production - 3 heads in 100,000Km - Benz paid for one - others were $3000 per shot.

William C

I just bought mine from the dealer a month and a half ago. At the start of August /2010 I noticed that the shifting was starteing to change so I brought it in to have it checked out and found out that I have a #1 cyl issue with too much carbon and needed a head job done and possible new rad and trany. To do the heads the cost for labor would be $1500.00 plus machine shop fees. I left the shop and received a called 2 days later to find out that the hose that cost $15.00 should also be changed because it has not been done and would cost $150.00 for labor! What the F*** I just bought this car and all of this should have been done! Guess what it would only be done if I bought the extended warranty at $2900.00 for 1 year contract! I think if they knew about this problem it should have been done when they had the car on the lot. Wow I'm a first and last MB buyer. Cars should have to be repaired if this problem is a known issue and should be done before it can be SOLD and not charge the buyer. Also when they ask if it has any issues it should be noted and it will be needed to be done soon.

This is one pissed off MB owner

inspecta83

Year:2003
Model: C230 Kompressor
Mileage: 68,000 miles

I must say that Ive been having alot of problems with my car lately. In late 2009 it went in to get the tranny done b/c of something to do with that overheating/radiator campaign. That cost me $2,500 USD

In June 2010 it went in to take car of that camshaft solenoid problem which was done for free.

Now in August 2010 I just took it in b/c I was experiencing shaking at random times, similar to what it was doing in 2009 when we took it in. The dealer just called and said that one of my valve springs are bad and I have carbon deposits (and low compression), and it will cost $3,100 to fix. They said if I wanted to go a cheaper route, I could pay $285 to get the system flushed which might clean out the carbon and fix the problem.

I refuse to pay $3,100 on a car that is 7 1/2 years old and has had this many problems before 70k miles. PLUS..ITS ONLY WORTH $10,000!!

Do any of you mechanically inclined members know if its possible that the camshaft problem may have caused or contributed to the valve spring/ carbon deposit problem?? If so, I'm hoping I can tell them that these latest problems are due to the pre-existing problem that was "fixed" in June 2010.

I definitely plan on writing a letter to MBUSA about this. It seems as though they know there was a problem with the old design, or else they wouldn't have changed it so quickly.

C230 Sport Coup

I heard something about the cam chain stretching being partially responsible. Once the carbon builds up it causes the valves to get mashed out of shape.
Seafoam is working for my friend with her 2003.

Glyn M Ruck

The carbon build up on heads & valves is a fuel problem. The M271 was designed to run on narrow cut Eurograde fuel - not South African or American crap. Benz finally redesigned the head for bad fuel areas. The cheapest real fix is to take off the head. Clean everything up if it has not detonated itself to hell - replace the odd valve & spring & reassemble. Benz recommend replacing the entire head.

The down & dirty fix, if nothing is damaged, is to run the engine at 5000 RPM for 1 hour & blow the carbon off.

Running on Techron & revving the car frequently helps prevent build up.

LILBENZ230

This must explain my car's engine health. It's revved high constantly and ran at high RPMs against compression almost daily on steep downhill grades around here. I also run Techron fuel and Techron concentrate regularly.

I've noticed sometimes at WOT from a stop there will be a puff or two of black smoke from the exhaust. I'm assuming this is normal?

Glyn M Ruck

Yes - that's just overfueling a little until the ECU catches up.

LILBENZ230

Thanks. There is no Techron station near my house, and should I go out of my way to one the price is significantly higher than competing stations (by about 30-40c per gallon). I still run it at least twice a month and Shell's V-power the other times. I run Techron concentrate about once a month. Never a rough idle or anything @ 87500 miles.