Pit-Pony

Anyone try the new C Class 4-matic?

In Canada the C240 Classic 4-Matic, lists at $43K Canadian, less than $27K US.

Drew_ML

Yes, I drove one a couple of months ago and it certainly didn't disappoint. The 4-matic system is a mere 100lbs so any loss in acceleration is basically imperceptible.

P.S. I've taken delivery of a C320 4-matic just on Friday :p

Mike T.

Drew,

Do you know of any detailed technical information on the C Class 4MATIC system? I'm looking for more than the fluff that appears in the brochure. Have you seen anything like that?

I wish 4MATIC was available with the manual. So I won't be getting one

Drew_ML

Mike,

What sort of stuff are you looking for in particular? The system is split 38/62 via a centre transfer case (gears, not some whussy viscous coupling ) and other than that, is pretty much identical to the ML's system aside from the lack of a low range gear set.

P.S. I was on V.Island last weekend and was hoping to meet up with you, but I guess you didn't get my message. Oh well, next time

Mike T.

Well, I was sort of hoping that M-B would have a 4MATIC technical document for the dealers or some kind of press info that goes beyond the basics that appear in the sales brochure.

I am glad that the 4MATIC now has something other than a 0-100 torque split in default mode, as in the early 300E cars (and early E Class??) that's what it was. I'd still prefer that the car have a Torsen diff in the rear instead of the pseudo-limited slip done by the brakes, but hey, this is not an Audi Quattro

I was here last weekend so I'm sorry I missed you. How did you try to contact me? Next time bring the new 320 and I'll race you with our C 230 K

Drew_ML

The early E-classes (1989 to 1993) had a very exotic system which was similar to the Porsche 911. Yes, at the time MB felt that it was important to maintain the RWD feel for its traditional customers, for the traditional MB feeling, therefore it was split 0/100.

Upon slippage, the multiple plate clutches would lock up and progressively transfer power as needed. If necessary, the rear axle even had an autolocking differential!! Of course the disadvantage of this system was its complexity as well as its weight. My parents actually had one years ago, and it was a really nice car.

Ehh, Audi doesn't even have Torsens in their Quattro's rear axle anymore anyway. From my experience with the E 4-matic and the ML, the system works extremely well and that is prety much all that matters to me

I e-mailed you a couple of days before, but I guess you didn't get the message. I was actually attending a MB event hosted by Three Point Motors.

<Gasp> Race? No street racing . Make sure that it's snowing or raining on that day :p

Mike T.

The race invitation was a jest, hence the winki

Hmm, I didn't see your email - it might have been accidently jettisoned by my wife while ridding us of the daily junk mail and attempted virus infections. What was the occasion at TPM? We bought our car from them and weren't invited sniff

I still dislike 4WD systems that utilise electronic brake interventions to maintain accelerative traction. That's not a formula for making a good high-performance vehicle. In fact, driving a vehicle like that on a very slippery surface, fast, will likely cause premature brake wear or maybe even brake overheating. I'd rather have a Torsen doing that job. The reason the electronic/brake solution was chosen instead is that it's cheaper, uses existing ABS wheel sensors and is quite suitable for the vast majority of users (non-enthusiasts). Hardly inspiring, I'd say

I used to drive very fast on snow for 4-5 months per year - great entertainment! Even in a FWD car with 4 knobbly snowies...

Still, kudos to M-B for at least offering a 4WD version of three of its sedans. They're better than most. Like Peugeot, whose 4WD 206 WRC has won the last three championships.....and Peugeot does not make a 4WD road car...and hasn't since the great 405 T16 sedan in 1993.

So, no tech info on the new C 4MATIC system? Full colour cutaway drawings?

Drew_ML

It was a driving event at Western Speedway. I was invited so that I could do a writeup for BenzWorld's front page. I have another event coming up next Tuesday in fact

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I still dislike 4WD systems that utilise electronic brake interventions to maintain accelerative traction. That's not a formula for making a good high-performance vehicle.

I have to say that I disagree. The Porsche 996 C4 or the 996TT are two examples of cars with permanent AWD + 4 wheel traction control based systems. PSM is absolutely phenomenal!

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In fact, driving a vehicle like that on a very slippery surface, fast, will likely cause premature brake wear or maybe even brake overheating.

Ahh but this is somewhat of a common fallacy. The system only cuts in intermittently not continuously. During MB's initial tests of their 4ETS, they hooked up monitors to the brakes to see which were being activated and they found that the system did just fine on continuously slippery surfaces.

If you want to have some more fun, the off switch works well. BTW, the driving event had several pro drivers, including Ross Bentley himself! I asked him about MB's ESP and 4ETS and he said that in general, it was tuned very nicely even for him. In fact, he left the CLK55's system active while we were doing 80 mph on the wet track, LOL.

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Still, kudos to M-B for at least offering a 4WD version of three of its sedans. They're better than most. Like Peugeot, whose 4WD 206 WRC has won the last three championships.....and Peugeot does not make a 4WD road car...and hasn't since the great 405 T16 sedan in 1993.

Yes, and it will be offered on the next generation A-class, and probably the CLK as well. It's too bad that Peugeot doesn't offer a sporty road version of their 206WRC!!

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So, no tech info on the new C 4MATIC system? Full colour cutaway drawings?

I think I have something stowed away somewhere. I'll have to dig around in the archives

Mike T.

And PSM is what, exactly? A version of 4ETS à la Porsche? A variation on PMS? It sounds like something that should be plastered on the side of a Japanese performance car - remember Honda REAL TIME 4WD?

What, with Granny driving? I find it hard to believe that a *****-out ride on special-stage type twisties in the snow would not cause the brakes to - err - wear prematurely and generally damage driving fun. Hard driving in tight conditions will absolutely require near-constant LSD action - the intermittent nature of the intervention (as you describe it) would be upsetting to the car's balance if the car is constantly sliding under power.

But you've actually just proven my point! If the Big Brother nanny-driver aids are switched off, the car is suddenly without ANY sort of limited slip differential (centre/rear) whatsoever, which would definitely be a BIG problem in very hard driving on slippery surfaces.

So it appears that M-B has engineered the 4MATIC system to average driver skill levels but the super-keen enthusiast had better look elsewhere for a rigourous high performance 4WD application. It's sort of like the understeer that most manufacturers engineer into their cars - they are designed to the lowest common denominator, or at best, to the 50th percentile. Which is anathema to keen drivers.

When you talked to professional drivers about the car, were the terms of reference the 4MATIC's suitability for normal road use, or rather its suitability for severe duty on gravel or snow? Rather than asking a very accomplished track racer like Ross Bentley about the 4MATIC system, I'd ask someone like Taisto Heinonen, John Buffum or Richard Burns to assess it for high performance potential. No doubt they'd not be as impressed...

In any case, I remain impressed that a 4WD C is available, but wish they'd make a performance-oriented version of the C 4MATIC. Even if it was only available on the C 32, it'd be a great start

Drew_ML

PSM is Porsche Stability Management. Yes it is 4 wheel tracion control + stability control. It works extremely well in snow/ice and dry on-road condtions/

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But you've actually just proven my point! If the Big Brother nanny-driver aids are switched off, the car is suddenly without ANY sort of limited slip differential (centre/rear) whatsoever, which would definitely be a BIG problem in very hard driving on slippery surfaces.

Haha, not really. The off-switch simply disables the torque reduction feature + resets the system to a much higher threshold. The brake portion of 4ETS does remain active though.

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So it appears that M-B has engineered the 4MATIC system to average driver skill levels but the super-keen enthusiast had better look elsewhere for a rigourous high performance 4WD application.

Well of course they did. It's not meant to be a rally cross car you know, heh. Even the A4 Quattro uses four wheel traction control now.

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When you talked to professional drivers about the car, were the terms of reference the 4MATIC's suitability for normal road use, or rather its suitability for severe duty on gravel or snow?

I asked about 4-matic + ESP for on-road use of course, and what they through of it as pro-drivers, for track use. I don't think anyone will be taking their C-class on heavy gravel surfaces. That's what the ML is for, heh. Actually the system only activates when there is a specific amount of wheel speed difference between the wheels. If you keep it relatively the same, 4ETS won't even kick in.

In my experience, and yes, I have driven it spiritedly on gravel, it only activates momentarily and then to keep you in line. Fun is relative of course, and there is more than enough fun for the average driver, I would say. For a bit more fun, lift off the throttle mid-corner. Now that will be fun

In any case, the C-class 4-matic will be, for most people, simply a car that will be bought for its all-year round traction and the peace of mind. I've found that like the E, because of the RWD bias torque split, it still feels very much like a RWD car. Nonetheless because of the permanent nature of the system, it is far and above better than something like the Volvo S60's Haldex based AWD system, which requires slippage before activating.