rlomba8204

Hello all:
My wife and I own a 2002 C230K 6 speed with approximately 6,000 miles on it. While we like the car's performance, handling, utility, and safety, we are very disappointed with the car's reliability. In the time we have owned the car, we have had numerous repairs including a noisy window regulator, defective seat memory system, new smartkeys, a check engine light (triggered by a thermostat and temperature sensor failure), noisy strut tower (being repaired this week) and another, yet to be diagnosed noise in the engine compartment. (I am also leaving out a few things, I am sure.) While I am a longtime BMW owner (have owned 4 Bimmers, including our present car), and thus used to a few minor issues here and there, this is really a bit much for a new car. Further, while I would expect a few "teething" issues with any new car, I am troubled by the quality control picture presented by all of these failures when they are considered in the aggregate. I also tend to think that while the car's failures have been numerous, Iam unsure if the car qualifies as a "lemon."

A few questions for the group:
1. Should I expect the problems to subside, or is the car junk?
2. How possible is it that MB would "lemon" the car based simply on goodwill (stated differently, their desire to not **** off a potential long term customer)?
3. What tactics should I take in expressing my displeasure with MBNA?

Thanks all in advance.

MacPhisto

To determine if it is a lemon, you need to see what lemon law standards in your state are. Apply that standard to your facts, and you will have an idea of the answer.

At only 6,000 miles, your problems may subside, or may get worse. No one can predict the answer to that.

I think it is very unlikely that MB would lemon the car based on "goodwill." Manufacturers generally don't like taking back lemons, and won't do it unless they think they are going to be forced to.

The tactics that you should take should be matter-of-fact, well documented, professional and courteous communications with MBUSA or MBNA. You will not impress them with threats or "ranting and raving." You will impress them with well documented facts, clearly and concisely presented, that will persuade them that they are going to lose a lemon law case under the laws of your state.

Most states also have a group of bottom feeder Lemon Law lawyers that work for cheap. That may help if you can't get anywhere on with MB on your own.

tommy

They'd lemon the car if you had a lemon. You don't - all of your problems so far have been fixed. If you're looking for money simply out of buyer's remorse, no, they're not that nice.

I don't know what you're really asking. The problems have been worked out so far. Every car has issues, and MB isn't known for being trouble-free, especially in the window regulator and electronic areas. Your results seem pretty typical, and I wouldn't get too upset yet. If they can't fix any of the problems, then you've got a beef. About what particular thing would you express your displeasure? That you bought a car that's known for not being the most reliable, and your dealer fixed its problems in a prompt and professional manner?

The only real problem that I see is that you maybe had unrealistic expectations for the car. And I don't see how you can blame MBNA for that. Don't give up on your ccoupe yet! These initial issues should die down. Until then, enjoy the (hopefully free) loaners and snacks.

c200k uk

I have a c200k, i'm in the uk and have loads of problems since i bought the car from new, the following problems in order :

1. ordered car with audio 10, didnt come with it, changed to audio 10, didnt work, replaced then worked !

2. alarm kept firing for no reason in the middle of the night. Fixed after 3 days (new unit put in place)

3. air con unit stopped working, replaced

4. dealership techs snapped vents of the air con, replaced after 1 week (no loaner)

5. dealership tech ruined mb tex, had that re-trimmed.

6. faulty bulb light came on, bulb wasnt actually faulty.

7. another faulty bulb light has come on over the past few weeks, dealer doesnt fix it, so have to leave it.

8. rear left window doesnt go up or down properl, dealer doesnt to how to fix it hence have to leave it.

Ah the wonders of living in ****land sorry Scotland

KWiK

my 2002 C230K is now over 20K miles and no problems

Outland

I have a 2002 six speed C-Coupe with more mileage than yours, and it has never returned to the dealer for anything. Nothing, nada.

You don't have a lemon. Manufactures are not required to build a car that is problem free. Based on the complexity of modern cars, and human nature in general, problems will appear. Your problems were fixed and have not returned...IIRC, most states would NOT consider this to be a lemon. Problematic, sure...but not a lemon.

I can understand your dismay at the number of problems youve had, but hang in there, youve got a long warranty to take car of the problems. I don't think your problems are related to lack of quality control...can you think of anyway that these failures/gremlins could have been stopped at the factory? I don't. QC looks for things like misalinged pieces, paint defects, assembly errors, incorrect components, and non functional items at the factory... Your problems are supplier quality related(which doesn't mean anything to you the customer), but being they are likely outside of the factory's direct control, they are much harder to stop.

Best way to exprexpress your displeasure is with a well written, well documented typed or hand written letter. E-mails and faxes are generally useless with any company.

rlomba8204

Thanks for the posts thus far, and I will make sure to retain documentation etc. in case the car's issues grow more severe. This is my typical approach, and I will follow it here.

I have a minor "beef" with Tommy's reply. Stated simply, I think my post made it quite obvious that I did not have unrealistic expectations of reliability -- this is why I explained that I did, and do, expect a certain number of teething problems with any car. What I did expect was a reasonably reliable car, one that would not be in the shop once a month. Further, I think that your statement that MB is known for not being the most reliable manufacturer is a little off the mark -- I think it would be a fairer statement to say that MB attempts to build technically complex vehicles and, as a result, a higher incidence of some problems related to that technical sophistication should not be unexpected. But the stuff we're talking about here, thermostats, power windows, strut bearing noises, etc., are basic QC issues and should represent the most basic form of engineering for any car manufacturer. Further on this point, MB is MB because they are suppossed to (and did in fact used to) build some of the longest lasting, most durable cars in the world. Stating that someone who buys an MB should expect problems or shoddy quality control is an absurd statement, one I don't think you really mean to make if you think about it. Finally, you assume that the dealer has been prompt (not true -- two week average wait for an appointment) and professional (true), when I did not comment on either.

I appreciate the fact that you like your car, as your enthusiasm is apparent, and I am happy for you. I hope you continue to enjoy your car. But because you like your car, don't automatically assume that everyone who is less than thrilled with their vehicle is somehow misguided. The fact that so many posts on this board are related to quality/reliability issues is very telling.

MacPhisto

His car has been in the shop quite a few times in its first 6,000 miles. I don't think that he has unrealistic or unreasonable expectations. Anyone who expects that many problems in a new car in the first 6,000 miles, and buys it anyways, would be foolish.

MacPhisto

Well said. A lot of MB buyers, particularly first timers, are so enamoured by the MB name that they will overlook any faults and defects.

tommy

Fine, I'll reply to your beef.

As you can see by this board (and pretty much every independent source on reliability), MB is about average in terms of reliability. Your problems don't seem to be that out of whack to me. That's why I said that you might have had unrealistic expectations. Please point out any published articles on the electronics of the W203 that show that they are anything other than merely average. Yes, these cars last long - I'd put up the hardware on MBs very high up on the list, but they are lacking in other areas. I don't think that's debatable, to tell you the truth. An absurd statement would be buying a car that's got statistically average ratings, and expecting the reliability of a Honda or Lexus product (to use an example).

I do like my Benz (though not as much as my crx, to tell you the truth), but think that I'm pretty fair about its shortcomings, one of which is the reliability. Since you didn't mention any issues with the dealership and your problems were fixed, I assumed that you had had no problems with them. I am sorry for assuming facts not in evidence that were actually true.

I've had several problems with my car; I've never said otherwise. You might want to go through the posts on this forum; your history is not abnormal.

As for the person quoting me with a huge total of 7 posts, please. Go through my posts, and tell me how enamoured I am with the MB "name". At least have a clue before posting anything about what I think.

MacPhisto

I didn't mean to refer to you in particular. Just a very common phenomenon that allows MB to take advantage of its brand name and cache to get away (at least for a while) with below average quality control.

I'm not saying his problems are abnormal - in fact, they unfortunately seem to NOT be abnormal. But, I assume he didn't know about the reliability problems before he bought the car, so he was not unreasonable to expect a car with reasonable reliability and quality control.

Boy, some of you here can get so nasty!

rlomba8204

Tommy:
Take it easy -- I did not challenge your manhood, but rather merely politely took issue with your point that somehow I was unrealistic in expecting a Mercedes Benz not to be in the shop every 15 minutes.

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that. Best of luck with your car.

tommy

You have 6k on the odo, and a smattering of problems that have been fixed as noted. OK, maybe it took them a while to get to your car. All I'm saying is that your car sounds normal for a W203. I don't get where I'm out of bounds with my comments on your car. It seems to me that your view on MB is based on the older generations that were more trouble-free, and not the new "improved" gens.

Mac - if you quote me, then say something about "some owners", any reasonable person would think that you were talking about them. Might want to rephrase that differently in the future, to avoid any confusion (and any further nastiness from other members).

Benzer

WHy would you have to leave it ??? Is it under warranty still?

Outland

Its obvious that he's doing that intentionally. You should read some of his other replies.

I disagree. In absolute terms, sure MB doesn't score as well as say Lexus. But as an average, its very well known that the ML accounts for a huge chunk of the reliability hits. A coworker of mine owns a C240, no problems...one of my friends owns a CLK convertible, also has had no problems. My wife's best friend has had an E-Class for several years...no problems there either. They plan on getting a new one now that the new body style is out. You can point to issues posted here or at other sites and claim MB makes shoddy cars all you want, but that doesn't make it true. Frankly I'd rather take a chance with a dodgy window regulator than a motor that's known to sieze up.

I'm sure many of you have read this article already, but for those of you who haven't:

Apollo

Hi

I cannot believe how many people are making excuses for MB. Does not matter if these faults are at factory or supplier related, this is no excuse, it is up to MB to make sure their suppliers get their act together. MB are supposed to have a reputation for quality and they charge a premium for the cars in the UK. I do accept to some degree the technology thing if it is fairly unique to these cars, but a lot of the faults I see on here are not related to advanced technology. Other manufacturers can mass produce cars and still maintain quality for less money.
I accept that you may have some niggles with a new car and what counts is the way MB deal with these. It must be costing MB (ultimately us) a lot to have to deal with these faults. What we don't know though is the percentage faults to sales as people on this forum care passionately about there car and are more likely to post and notice faults than other people.

avlis

Very telling of what? That people with car problems post questions abou tthem on message boards? You have to agree that people with no problems have less of a reason to post a question here as one with problems.

I browsed a Honda Accord forum that had at least as many negative posts as this forum. Even though there are hundreds of thousands of problem-free Accords, not many owners of those cars feel compelled to post "My car has had no problems and I love it".

On that note, our Accord has had very few problems (I think 1 warrenty service). Reliable, yes. Dependable, yes. I do NOT consider car of high overall quality. Why? With 45k, the car is already showing signs of age and we're thinking of replacing it. Sure, it stills runs great and continues to be "dependable". It just hasn't held it's value over time.

MB-BOB

I've been to websites for several different makes of automobiles in the past two years, from supposedly hyper-reliable cars (Lexus, Honda and Toyota), to sites where you would expect to read about trouble (Kia, Hyundai).

The one common observation I wish to make is that each of them have a disproportionate amount of posts regarding problems with the cars in question. Therefore, I believe this is the norm with most, if not all auto websites. And, in a way, that is as it should be.

Think about it. The neat benefit of this forum (and any other) is that you can compare notes with fellow car owners, both the good and the bad. Seldom do you see on any forum post after post of "Life is good, Kumbaya Love Fests." Frankly, a website that contained only good stuff would have little value to me.

No car is perfect. That's why ALL brands (from highest to lowest ranked) come with warrantys. Even the most vocal naysayers here (with more Mercedes ownership experience than me) say that once you get the first year issues fixed, the cars will last a decade or more without further complaint. I see more 190Es running around today than any pre-'90s Honda, Toyota, Mitsu, etc.

MarkL

And in addition, I would think the number of people participating on this board is a tiny fraction of all MB owners. I don't know whether it would be a fair extrapolation to say that our nitpicking and problem reporting is representative of the larger universe...

I've stopped by my dealer on several occasions, not for service, but to look at cars, etc. I'm simply amazed at the number of cars they deliver every week. Although the dealer is located in an "affluent" area, if the cars were so bad, I can't believe those with lots of money (E-, S-, CL-, SL-class, etc.) would keep buying MB simply for the "star" when there are other high-end luxury choices.

MacPhisto

Because this board is not a fair extrapolation of the larger universe does not mean that MB is NOT having reliability and quality control problems.

MB has had quality control and reliability problems in the past few years, that's a fact. Daimler Chrysler has also had its profitability hurt in the last few years because of the unexpectedly high number of warranty claims. MB's recognition of the problems, and its attempts to solve the problems (which some say are too little, too slow, and too late) have been well documented and acknowledged by DCX, particularly in the European press.

But, if people want to believe that MBs enjoy the same reliability as Hondas or Toyotas - well, that's ok, too. (Just don't actually research the issue - you might be disappointed).

Yes, a lot of people do buy MBs because of the name. A large percentage of MB buyers know zero about cars, and care little about cars - they just buy by the name. The MB name is very strong as a marketing tool. Although, in the past 10 years, both BMW and Lexus, among others, have eaten into MBs market share.

c200k uk

I have to leave it because my dealer overhere in scotland are like the dumbest dicks ever, they dont have a clue.

A typical conversation with them :

me= my fault lights coming on the trip about some faulty brake light ? sort me out ?

dealer= whats a trip computer ?

me= ehh, well u dont know what that is ?

dealer= no sorry ure gonna have to tell me?

me= ehh, okay, its the onboard fault detector system !

dealer = where?

me = ehh, where the instrument cluster is !

dealer = okay i'l have a look !!!

thats how clever they are !!!

Jim Banville

MacPhisto, what personal experience do you have with MB unreliability?

MB-BOB

Nor does it mean that because some MBs have problems that ALL MBs have problems. As some who know me from this forum will tell you, I am VERY picky about my car. But I have not personally experienced anything like the QC problems mentioned here. You cannot take what you read here as indication of some model-wide concern.

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that MB's are as reliable as any other car. Instead the suggestion is that you can have QC issues with Hondas just as easily as with MBs. I've owned both, along with several Nissans and Toyotas.

I have had problems with each of these Japanese cars, too. But just because I had some problems with my Honda, doesn't mean that all Hondas are poop. Far from it. Likewise, the same presumption applies to MB.

BTW, MBWorld currently has 5,974 members... Assuming that 5,000 or more actually own MBs, that's just a fraction of the total number of MBs sold.

Wheens

Not to further muddy these waters, but from a statistical viewpoint we may very well extrapolate meaningful information as to reliability from this thread.

Considering the C models only (this forum): if the forum "sample size" is sufficient (and I suspect it is) and the spectrum of posters is representitive of C model owners in general (a little more iffy, but probably true), then one might be able to infer general C model reliability from what is posted here. Think about national polls that are deemed to be accurate to +/- 3% with a "sample" of only 1000 or so people.

MacPhisto

I have 2 eyes and subscriptions to 9 automotive publications and the Wall Street Journal. From where do you obtain your information?