NickiMB

Help!!

My 2002 C240 car started having a very large cloud of white smoke coming out of the exhaust for about 2 days intermittently. Unfortunately after taking it to the dealer they told me I needed the following repairs.

They alleged the transmission valve box was gone, power steering pump needed to be replaced ($3K) and I needed a new engine (what the heck!)

The tech had the nerve to tell me that MB engines could not be rebuilt because they used titanium on the engine casing and I would have to buy a new engine at the cheap price of $8K.

Although I wear a skirt even I knew that was a bunch of bull. I had them close up my car ASAP and towed it to another mechanic, but not before the got me for $650 for a diagnositc eval.

I had my engine serviced at the specified dates of service approx every 13k miles. However, my extended warranty is refusing to cover engine sludge. I am currently at 99,350 and my warranty expires at 100K.

So here I stand trying to determine the best course of action. I am leaning towards rebuilding my own engine because the car will be paid for in October.

I am ol' school and dont purchase new cars and would like to ride this car into the ground and give it to my unsuspecting future child for their 16th birthday.

Do I have a case to force the extended warranty to cover my repairs?
Should I try a minor repair like doing a hot engine flush, seafoam etc?
Should I go with rebuilding my own engine?

Am I covered under that class action lawsuit against MB for engine sludge from a few years back?

I am hoping you guys can give me some good advice on the best course of action.

Thanks so much!

Nicki

SeaCoupe

First thing I would do it get an eninge oil change and examine the oil Pronto. The clock is ticking on your warranty.

Did you have issues with the steering prior? If you like the steering, no need for the pump.

The white smoke, I'm thinking this is something in the head/valve area.

The guys you want in on this are Glyn Ruck, Mlskevor, moviela, and splinter. Send a pm to those guys asking them to look in this thread.

As for the $695 diagnostic fee...can you tell us what they invoiced you for? 6 hours of labor?

Where are you located?

E

pookie

I'm surprised that your extended warranty does not cover it. I have gotten 2 transmissions, some engine fixes and a/c problems fixed under extended warranty. Double check the fine print and talk to them. This sounds like a way too complicated project. g/l

mleskovar

First wait for the second opinion. $650 diagnostic evaluation and nothing was repaired? You drove the car into the dealer and now it's not driveable because it's in pieces? I'd like to see that writeup...could you scan it for us? Were you having steering and transmission problems as well as the smoke? Have you always had this MB dealer service your car and did you buy it new from them? Sounds like you may have coolant leaking in the motor. What extended warranty do you have? Not expired? Enough questions for now. Don't worry, something is fishy here.

Glyn M Ruck

Yes - Give us all the data you can - answer mleskovar,s questions - agree it sounds like a weeping head gasket - most unusual. We will help. - Indeed something is fishy

NickiMB

Thanks for all your responses. Here is the additional information requested.

I stopped servicing the car at the dealer it was way too expensive but my mechanic is ASE certified.

1. Here are the dates of my oil changes. I purchased the car from a private owner Sept. 2004. He had all the service receipts from the dealer.

My Oil changes compared to MB recommended oil change

06/25/04 mine 33,285; MB 39,000
04/06/05 mine 41,822; MB 52,000
12/02/05 mine 53,386: MB 65,000
08/02/06 mine 64,445: MB 78,000
07/13/07 mine 77,803: MB 91,000
01/9/08 mine 83,642; MB 104,000

MB tech wrote- Oil leaking from oil port at front of motor. Valve covers leaking oil from tops and seals. Oil leaking from oil filter housing, plastic oil filter cap warped.

2. Power steering pump was rebuilt 1/9/08 at 83,642 miles. I was having no issues with my steering recently.

MB tech wrote on report- power steering pump has a leak, there is fluid but low- because ran with no fluid it is coming apart- WHAT BS!!!

3. I reported that it was having a hard time accelerating when the white smoke was coming out of the back. Otherwise accelerated fine.

a) Major Tune Up, Transmission Service, Radiator Flush 8/2/06 at 64,445 miles
b) Transmission Service 5/9/07 at 75,339 miles
c) Major Tune Up 7/13/07 at 77,803 miles

MB tech wrote- Vehicle feels sluggish transmission is slipping. Fault codes P2500- trans has impermissible trans ratio, P2502- the gear is implausible or the trans is slipping needs a valve body to fix. Trans fluid level is ok, color is okay with a slight metallic flake. Trans is slipping because the valve body is not allowing the trans to shift properly.

4. Check engine light is on.

MB tech wrote- the light is on due to miss fire. The smoke is oil coming out of the cylinder.
Engine belt is coming apart and will need to be replaced.

Diagnostic evaluation:

First hour- $195
Next 3 hours at $135/hour
Total $647 including tax etc.

Car towed- They put my car back together after they removed the valve covers to inspect the oil passages. It started up and was driveable but I decided to have it towed to be on the safe side to keep the warranty company from claiming the engine was further damaged by me driving it after I was informed the engine needed to be replaced.

Warranty company is Warranty Direct- I reread the exclusions and engine sludge is excluded. That is why I am wondering if I am covered under that class action lawsuit against MB for engine sludge from a few years back. Does anyone know anything about it?

I am in Miami, FL.


You guys thanks for guiding me through this headache!!!

Nicki

mleskovar

The sludge problem was from '97 or '98 when they went to the FSS system. FSS requires synthetic oil for the extended service interval. If I remember correctly some cars were shipped from MB with regular/dyno oil and it couldn't hold up and broke down to sludge. Your car doesn't qualify. I see your last oil change was almost 16K miles ago, didn't your FSS notify you? Are you sure the mechanic has been using Mobil1? During this 'smoking' episode did you need to add coolant? Is it low now? Oil can sludge for different reasons....going beyond the serviceable use limit in time, excessive motor temperature caused by worn or broken parts/seals, or the wrong oil for the application. Usually you'll get warning puffs of smoke and increased oil consumption with these problems. Sometimes people call contaminated oil sludge. Oil mixed with coolant is brown and frothy and gooey. Oil used beyond its' limit is black sludge. I'm guessing yours is brown because it happened all of a sudden and white smoke is symptomatic of water/coolant being burned. If you take off the oil fill cap what do you see on the underside of it? Is there a black or brown water stain on the ground beneath the exhaust pipe where you usually park your car? As Glyn said, a failed head gasket is a common source of coolant contamination. At any rate, either sludged or contaminated, the problem can 'usually' be corrected if too much damage isn't incurred and it sounds like you caught it early. Flush motor, replace head gasket if necessary, install correct oil. Glyn is the oil expert and I trust his expertise over mine.

Glyn M Ruck

OK - Sorry - there are going to be more questions & some requests & let's concentrate on engine & transmission first. We will worry about minor peripherals like PS pump & Poly V belts later. Thank you for being sensible with the car after the problem arose.

Firstly - Engine:

What oil has been used in the vehicle since you have owned it? Dealer servicing prior to that I presume was Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40

Your oil change intervals have been fine

Was the smoke white or grey/blue that came out of the exhaust? i.e. steam or oil smoke

Please ask your mechanic to perform a wet & dry compression test. This will tell us whether we have a broken ring or similar causing the smoke.

Also ask him to comment on whether the engine is really sludged or is the oil just black which it should be.

Please ask you mechanic to check the cooling system with a kit that will detect combustion by-products in the coolant & look for signs of air in the system. This will tell us if you have a blown cylinder head gasket.

Your mechanic is going to have to fix the leaks but don't worry now. If the engine has to come apart, new gaskets will have to be fitted anyway as will warped caps etc.

Ask your mechanic to tell us where the PS system is leaking while he's about it.

Please go back to these people that did the diagnosis & tell them you want ALL the codes that they downloaded on their STAR diagnostic machine or refuse to pay the bill/try and retrieve some of your money - be hard on them. They sound like crooks. Also ask your mechanic to take an OBDII/CANBUS reader and see what codes he gets. The other jerks might have deleted them but it's worth a try.

Also ask these people which cylinder they consider suspect & did they inspect it with a boroscope? If so - what did they see? Then ask your mechanic to swap the coil & wires from that cylinder with another cylinder and see if the misfire code changes cylinder with the OBDII scanner. Then you will know whether a faulty coil or wires are causing the misfire.

I'm not going to speculate as to what is wrong until this has been done or we are just guessing. Obviously ask your mechanic to keep his eyes open for problems. Once properly diagnosed we can have a go at your extended warrantee underwriters.

Please do note - Mercedes Benz run NiCaSil bores. If you have broken a ring and the bore has been damaged it will cost you a new engine block (this might be where this "Titanium" story is coming from if the Tech does not quite understand). Mercedes have made repair sleeves available for some older engines using NiCaSil on aluminium bores. I do not know whether they are available for the M112 engine.

Now - Transmission

You say the oil has not darkened. This means it has not overheated if a clutchpack is slipping. You say there are metal flakes in the oil - I don't like the sound of that one bit. Have you seen these personally?

See Mercedes transmission diagnostic codes below. It does look as though the transmission is slipping & this would be covered under your extended warrantee. I would sort the engine first & then we can have a proper look at your transmission. You say it felt fine before the smoking problem. The engine malady might have upset the TCU (Transmission Control Unit) and these codes might be nonesense. I would report the supposed transmission problem to your warrantee people to get it recorded.

Please ask your mechanic to check whether your car is fitted with a Valeo radiator. They have a bad habit of leaking coolant into the Auto transmission via the transmission cooler. This could cause the transmission to slip. I would not expect clear fluid though. Your car is unfortunately in the trouble window for this (2002)

Merc transmission codes are as follows:

P2500 The transmission has an impermissible transmission ratio.
P2501 Engine overevving has occurred.
P2502 The gear is implausible or the transmission is slipping.
P2503 The gear comparison is negative or the target gear is not reached.
P2510 The torque converter lock-up clutch causes impermissible closing.
P2511 Engaging of torque converter lockup clutch not permitted.
P2511 The torque converter lock-up clutch has excessive power consumption.
P2512 Actuation of torque converter lockup clutch is not possible
P2520 The feedback through the transmission protection is not maintained.
P2600 The voltage supply of circuit 87 has undervoltage.
P2601 The voltage supply of circuit 87 has overvoltage.
P2602 The voltage supply of the valves is faulty.
P2603 The voltage supply of the speed sensors is faulty.

Sorry to place these demands on you - Good luck & don't hesitate to ask any questions

Glyn M Ruck

Sorry mleskovar - I did not get your post on screen when I returned to the thread to answer - all spot on - I worry that the wrong oil might have been used but the black sludge era is behind us now - I would like to know whether there is mayonaise under the oil filler cap - see my post for the rest above.

NickiMB

Wow you guys are great. I am checking my post in between the Lakers v. Cavalier game.

Transmission;
They said the trans fluid had a "slight metallic flake but nothing serious" Didnt see with my own eyes so suspect.

Engine:
White smoke was coming out of the exhaust.
Engine sludge was thick and brown. I saw it at the dealer.

Oil:
No increased oil consumption and my FSS light came on Friday. I parked the car for Sat and Sun and took to the dealer on Monday.

I will followup and keep you guys posted.

THANKS!!!!
Nicki

Glyn M Ruck

Great - white smoke is encouraging - These engines usually go forever. I know of one at 700,000 Kms & another at 557,000Kms, both never opened and in regular dailly operation.

BTW - excuse the acronyms - TCU = Transmission Control Unit.

Keep us posted.

PS. I've made a couple of minor edits above to make the explanations easier to understand.

mleskovar

Good points. If they did any of the tests that Glyn mentioned, or any tests for that matter, you should get the answers since you paid for it. If it's not on the work order then they either didn't do it or they're keeping the information to themselves. $650 to R&R valve covers and tell you the engine's dirty and needs to be replaced is theft.

splinter

NickiMB- your C’s woes sure seem like warrantable repairs to me. Hang tough and they’ll make you whole. Best wishes.

mleskovar and Glyn M Ruck are indeed an asset to our forum. They're sharp.

SeaCoupe

Can you take the advice posted above and check underneath the oil fill cap. Is it a normal oil appearance, or has the oil gone to a Mayonaise consistency with a coffee w/ cream appearance?

Light wispy white smoke is moisture in your combustion.

Did the car recently overheat?

E

acr2001

Sorry Glyn but I'm going to speculate here:

It sounds to me like you blew a head gasket and coolant got into the oil, causing the morons at the stealership to deduce that your oil is sludged due to mistreatment. The more I read these forums the more I despise dealerships. If everyone would just refuse to give them business the scum would be forced to change.

Glyn M Ruck

As is splinter! Most appropriate Avatar

Glyn M Ruck

Yes - a likely scenario - I'm just trying to diagnose this thing properly from a long way away so we fix it once & correctly

SickSpeedMonte

+1

NickiMB

Hey guys here is an update.

I just spoke with my mechanic and asked him which test he plans to perform on my car. He siad he will do 5.

1. wet and dry compression test
2. leak test- he said to tell me if we have burned valves or issue with the head gasket
3. coolant test
4. valve test
5. exhaust test

I also gave him the STAR diagnostic printout from MB with all of the codes.

I didnt go back to ask the about the cyclinder issue as I dont want to deal with them ever again in this life or any future life.

He wont get to my car until mid-week so I most likely wont have an answer before Friday.

Thanks again guys and will keep you posted on another espisode of
"As the Car Turns"!

Nicki

Glyn M Ruck

Great - just give him a copy of our posts & thoughts. I'm sure he is competent.

Keep us informed - Kind Regards

NickiMB

Hey guys here is an update.

I spoke with my mechanic this evening and he finished the 5 tests. Here are the results and his diagnosis.

1. wet and dry compression test- ok
2. leak test- guides and seals are bad. Guides are shooting out oil. Burning of spark plugs.
3. coolant test- ok
4. valve test- ok
5. exhaust test- ok

Diagnosis- Head gasket, seals, guides, need to be replaced. Engne block is okay.

Cost- Rebuild my engine $4500-5,000

Finding a rebuilt engine- $3800 but only a 90 day warranty and I have no idea how the engine was taken care of. But as the POT I cant be saying much myself since my DANG car has a blown engine and I serviced it.

I am leaning towards rebuilding my own engine. The warranty company wont budge with the sludge so I am S.O.O.L.

What do you guys think?

Nicki

splinter

Not clear how its compression test was deemed “ok,” and yet head gasket(s) replacement is indicated by the diagnosis. Worn valve seals and guides, as you know, will contribute to excessive oil consumption and plug fouling, but not typically oil (in the sump) degradation.

If the short block is sound, renewing the heads can be properly done for far less than $4500 by a competent independent technician.

Doesn’t your warranty cover internal engine parts, e.g., its head gaskets?

mleskovar

What is the wording around 'sludge' in the extended warranty? Your car has been serviced properly. There was a mechanical failure and they should repair it is my reaction. I'm assuming that the head gasket is the source of the white smoke and the reason the car was brought to service. Head gaskets should be covered....no? You probably would have continued using the car otherwise, correct?

$3800 (installed? Probably not) for a rebuilt motor sounds reasonable depending on what was done. All rebuilders are not equal. A true rebuilt motor includes total tear down, cleaning, measuring for wear, and replacing bearings, rings, seals , gaskets etc etc. I'm assuming what you will have after doing it yourself is new valve guides, seals, and head gaskets (probably cleaned heads as well). I'd go for the rebuild (again depending on what was done to it). I'm sure the warranty people wouldn't mind the cheaper settlement either.

You paid for a warranty so be persistent. Just stay calm, impersonal, but firm and escalate when stonewalled. Attorney if needed.

acr2001

Seriously. Send them a letter, in writing, explaining that the vehicle was taken care of and any oil sludge is due to a mechanical failure which is covered under their warranty. CC your lawyer and tell them that they can consider this notice of impending litigation if they do not respond within xx business days. Scumbags.

Glyn M Ruck

Listen to local knowledge re warrantee - Here, I would be straight to my nasty, but excellent, Jewish lawyer on principle - don't give up - a pernicious industry. Remember we might still have some transmission issues & the sludge is almost certainly as a result of coolant leaking into the engine & not a lack of care on your behalf.

Valve guides, stem seals & head gasket were not damaged by sludge. If anything the guides have been overlubricated - likely problem is hardened stem seals but it makes sense to do the guides.

It's a huge relief that the block is OK. I do not understand how the coolant test came back negative with a blown head gasket - Sometimes compression can still be "OK" if the gasket leak was slight.

I would just do a head job & be done with it. Flush & clean the sub assembly. I would only disturb bearings & rings if the entire engine requires removal. Even with shot guide seals you say the car was not using oil.

I would repair your own engine - better the devil you know. mleskovar makes a good point on the rebuilt unit but how well is the rebuild done at this pricing point?

Good luck