you want fun? ESP out and lots of cornering lol

 

BMW M3 vs Mercedes C63 AMG vs Audi RS4 in Spain - Top Gear - BBC :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaZEx...eature=channel

 

I got tired of understeer and went with a thicker rear bar.
Much better.

But the stock suspension can be improved.
I started with springs, and AMG sways, then
CO's, then the rear thicker bar.

I corner just fine! Haul **** on mountain roads.

 

come on tommy, using the average buying age to show whether a car handles better or is more sporty is poor judgement.

The average car buying age for japanese cars are lower then bmw's. By your logic japanese cars are more sporty or handle better since there average buying age is lower then bmw.

 

Werd

And if you mod it....it only gets better

 

not interior... CHEAPEST

 

haha seriously

I think they get waaay more credit than they deserve

 

of course its the cheapest, just compare the seats and leather quality on C class to the 3series... at least they get REAL bucket seats...

 

Precisely - Clarkson has said openly "why spoil a good story with the facts"

I love Top Gear - but I take it for what it is. Popular media, biased hype, that is fun for the viewer.

And by the way - anybody that has driven a BMW really seriously, on or off track, will know that what feels dynamic at moderate chucking can very soon turn around & bite. When the notorious Beemer back end snaps around on you at the limit - the finest driver in the world won't control it. That's why so many of them get trashed. This rotten tendency goes right back to the 528i & has never been designed out - just tempered by electronics.

The Benz just pushes it's nose & the immediate reaction by most to lift off the throttle brings it back in line nice & safely.

If you want sharper turn in a few basic mods will improve this as will staggered wheel set ups with smaller tyres on the front a la Porsche. (the ultimate understeerer)

An oversteerer a Benz will not be for safety reasons.

Since the re-entry into F1 Benz average buying age has dropped substantially. W204 has taken this a step further - It's all perception.

The previous Benz buying demographic was driven by the fact that medium aged farts like mleskovar & I tended to have the financial wherewithall to buy them & the common sense to like them - we are not boy racers. Now Benz has a car for everyone from the A Class to the AMG black series & everything in between - You just don't see them in the US - You still require to be in a reasonable income bracket to buy & care for them properly.

Latest Top 12 cars in South Africa following the JD Powers survey - Benz & Honda swept the floor.

 

With C32 springs/shocks, and the C32 rear bar (front is stock), the car is much closer to neutral. In fact, with winter tires (205/55-16s) rather than summer tires (225/45-17s), the car has a tendency to rotate if the turn-in is too brisk.

While MB does design their cars so that they don't bite the "average driver" when he panics mid-corner and snaps off the throttle, it is possible to improve the cornering for not too much money - which does increase the enjoyment greatly.

Running Hwy74 along the Nantahala and Ocoee rivers is now a joy, and the handling is very BMW-like. The front may not be quite as planted as the 3-series, but once you figure out that a little trail-braking helps the turn-in, it's no problem to run with one . . . . until you get to the long uphill stretches, where the little 1.8L starts wheezing.

In short, if you want the opportunity to back your car into a guardrail: upgrade the rear bar, lower/stiffen the car (with GOOD parts, not a hacksaw), upgrade your insurance, and enjoy the ride.

 

+1 - and I'll bet that over 90% of drivers on this forum, enthusists or not fall into the "average" driver category, not that they would ever admit it. All that over confidence BS.

As I said - quote "If you want sharper turn in a few basic mods (suggested by C230 Sport Coup above sic) will improve this as will staggered wheel set ups with smaller tyres on the front a la Porsche. (the ultimate understeerer)" unquote - and albeit in the case of a Porsche at far greater levels of enthusiasm. Smaller tyres = greater weight (force) per contact patch.

I had the pleasure recently of thrashing the new SL 63 AMG around our local Killarney race track & on the road. I found it to be delightfully neutral and potent, not at all like the "girley" effeminate demeanour of SLs of the past. I hope I get an opportunity to drive a V12 or Black Series. The V8 was stunning & looks good too. Man is that engine free revving - no V8 slugger. I actually suspect that the V8 might end up being the most balanced.

 

yeah i still love the show...but i think fifth gear is more accurate with there reviews. But i agree, i think top gear is more entertaining. I agree the w204 has done a better job at catering to younger people. I remember a 3-4yrs most of the people I know who got out of college and got a decent paying job all got 3-series bmw's.

Now i know more people getting w204's, audi a4's and g37. There a lot more cars in the picture now..i hope mercedes can keep there products competitive in the lower segment.

 

yeah agree..for me i'm still a little scared to take my c32 to its full limit. I use to take my integra and civic to the limit all the time but driving a car with a lot more power...i know my c32 is a lot less forgiving then my hondas when it breaks loose.

I do think the car is setup for a little too much understeer from the factory though. I went stiff spring rates in the rear with my coil overs and destaggered setup.

I think the mercedes stock, do well what they are designed for. To offer a comfortable luxiourous ride.

 

+ 1 - The powers that be in Stuttgart did not like that buying tendency & have done something about it & will continue to. They have their nose ahead of BMW by a smidgen at the moment & want to keep it that way. That idiot Chris Bangle helped with his crap styling

C Class & S Class are clearly ahead of BMW as are most sport models. I think the 5 Series is a very average car but the new E Class is a bit of a worry - It leaves me cold from a styling perspective internally & externally. It drives well & is technologically very advanced & safe but does not send my adrenalin or hormones on a route march. Maybe they see it as the traditionalist gap filler.

 

any figures on bmw and mercedes sales ?

 

here are the general US sales numbers across all brands for feb. As you can see only subaru, hyundai and kia maintained positive sales number for the year over 08.

http://www.autoblog.com/page/11/

Brand Vol. % Change Total Sales 2/09

BMW -37.5% 12,979

Mercedes -23.5% 14,199

Subaru 1.4% 13,089

Kia 0.4% 22,073

Lexus -38.4% 13,108

 

ive already seen this. i was asking for sales around the world before the crysis...

 

i dont think they do world car sales on a monthly basis. I think they only total them by yr.

 

H A - I saw them in hardcopy a while back. I will try & find & yes they were annual - No way available monthly & the Koreans don't play ball. BTW in South Africa Benz outsells BMW comfortably in all categories even with the 1 Series around. Both have plants here & the BMW product is generally cheaper.

 

I'm suprised that destaggering improved turn in. AMG would disagree as would Porsche. I think some of it is tyre dependent. I know splinter runs semi destaggered with same rims back & front but smaller tyres front. I guess it depends on your set up. In Porsche's case it makes sense because of their weight distribution. On the Merc it might also be working for you because of the weight in the nose allows a wider tyre where the reverse applies to Porsche.

 

Thank you to everyone that has replied to my question. I got to read some great information.

The reviews are not only based off of Top Gear, I've read others and I want to say a majority of them said cornering was the weaker side of the Benz. But overall, the cars got a good rating.

As for improving my car's handling and performance, I would love to, but after finding out the costs and with the current economic situation, I'm going to put all that on the side for now. So I'm doing the small stuff first.

 

As my uncle always said to me as a kid. (maybe this is some kind of Chinese proverb )

"If you sit in a car, get a Benz. If you drive the car, get a Bimmer."

I would have to agree. Bimmers are more fun to drive, but boy are MBs comfortable as a daily driver. Mind you, I swapped in AMG sways as the stock ones are definitely too soft.

 

I agree that Beemers, as we call them, are great drivers cars when new. I turn into a hooligan behind the wheel of a BM which is why I've explored that loose tail too often. Give me a Benz & I calm down & behave, unless it's an AMG. BMW's 4 cylinder engines suck but their sixes are great. Their V8's simply don't have the charisma of the inline 6.

One thing is certain, however, BMWs simply don't make old bones well. An old BMW is a piece of crap and this shows in their shocking resale value - The 3 series is the only model that shows vague respectibility in resale value. This might be less of a case in the US where all secondhand cars loose value quickly compared with the rest of the world. But in most countries secondhand BMW values suck.

A Benz is still a good car at very high mileage and holds it's value if you have a proven service record.

 

+1


DISAGREE... In the middle east, benz and bmw's both hold their values, along with toyotas and hondas reliability as family cars....
and in the states, you can compare M3's and c32's prices !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The US market is counter intuitive.

I've just retired from a Global job - see my profile - & I'm back contracting. Let me assure you in most countries BMW do NOT hold value like Benz does & don't hold value period. The Middle East - Saudi, UAE whatever are throwaway markets like the US.