Utahkompressor

My car has been running on kleemann almost 3 weeks now.
A few hours ago while I was driving on freeway....CEL lighted up!
The first thing I think of is 'header issue'....anybody has the same problem?
The car is running fine.....no performance lose, no running rough, etc.
It sucks because I have to get an emission test done next week and I don't think they gonna pass me if I have CEL.

Help please!

paypaboi

OBDII FTW!

Utahkompressor

^^^What is FTW?

paypaboi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-Board_Diagnostics

I've heard people say u can get a OBDII scanner from autozone and rent it for free with down payment that you will return it of course or you can buy one for about $60 bucks. you hoook it up to your car and it scans the engine error codes. Then you can look up the codes and see exactly what is the problem.

For instance if I scanned my car right now because my CEL is on it would send the error code for O2 sensor because one of mine is out.

Utahkompressor

Thanks bro! I'll try to pull the code on Monday.

capt_paul

Do a search for P0420 code with Kleemann header. I have posted numerous problems with my Klemann header/cat.

Still trying to resolve the issue. Kleemann worldwide headquarters claims that my problem was the first they had ever heard of the P0420 code from their producet worldwide, even though there have been numerous posts on this forum.

Good luck..first step would be to contact Cory at Kleemann in Colorado Springs, CO

Utahkompressor

^^^How long have you had the kleemann header/cat?

Glyn M Ruck

capt paul & I had a long PM session that started like this"

quote "

Originally Posted by capt_paul
Since you seem to be the most knowledable person on this forum, I was hoping to get your opinion on my car.

Ever since putting the Kleemann header/cat on my car, I get a P0420 code under partial load conditions approximately 65 mph.

I have replace both the pre- and post-cat O2 sensors and still get the intermittent code.

Cory from Kleemann has also sent me a replacement cat to no avail.

The car gets an average 24.5 mpg in town and 28 or so on the highway, but the O2 sensors seem awfully black like it is running rich.

The engine is smooth and has no other issues. The car has 56,000 miles on it with the original plugs.

My car is a 2005 C230 with the M271 engine BTW.

Thank you in advance for any useful suggestions or tips.

Paul

Hi Paul,
Thanks for the compliment but I'm far from the most knowledgeable guy on the forum.

Right - your problem:
P0420 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1) (you only have 1 bank)

What this is basically telling you is that with the new Cat on board the difference between the pre O2 sensor reading & post O2 sensor reading is outside the tolerance that MB have mapped into the system. This might or might not be something to worry about. If I'm preaching to the choir please excuse me - I don't begin to know how technical you are.

ie - the new Cat is not as efficient as the standard one under the conditions that you describe above.

Now, the car will, within reason, adapt itself to the changes you have made. If you've put on a couple of hundred miles since the installation and you still throw codes then the system can adapt no further.

I doubt that there is anything wrong with the system mapping or ECU. So the only questions I have are - Are you running with genuine O2 sensors or generic ones? Does the car ever throw fuel trim codes - either too rich or too lean?

The 271 engine is mostly optimised and very difficult to tune without compromise. What do Kleeman say with this mod. Do they recommend a remapped ECU & if so - can they provide one or remap yours. If the O2 sensors are stock & in good order the mods have moved the vehicle outside the limits of MB mapping & the only way you are going to stop throwing codes is to widen the tolerance in the ECU map. By doing that you might not pass emissions. Kleeman is a reputable tuning house - do they have faith in their Cat?? Answer my questions & let's see where we go after that. I presume the vehicle is in a good state of tune otherwise? Clean airfilter, No plug misfires, MAF clean, throttle body clean etc? (MAF is easily checked - just unplug it which forces the car onto a default map & see what happens - you will have to cancel the code with a scanner after doing this) - Maybe you should replace the plugs with new genuine Bosch.
Good luck - let me know

Kind Regards,
Glyn

Glyn...thank you for the quick reply.

I do not have any codes other than the P0420 code. I replaced the sensors with genuine Bosch ones that are correct for the car.

The car is well maintained per the maintenance schedule and no other issues.

I have talked to Cory at Kleemann USA and he sent me the new cat, but I still wound up getting the P0420 code. I don't understand why the car is still throwing codes. I tried a couple of times to post these issues on the mbworld.org forums, but nobody responded.

I cannot believe that I am the only one with this header/cat with this issue. I am running out of ideas and I do not want to go back to stock setup. I still have the original exhaust manifold/cat just in case.

I may have to go above Kleemann USA and write directly to the main headquarters to fix the problem.

On my scanner, the aft O2 sensors is between .740 and .815 volts, so from what I read, it is running rich.

I can provide a freeze frame info from the scanner if it helps. My scanner did not provide voltage numbers for the pre cat sensor.

The scanner does not show bad sensors, since it is running in CL once it is warmed up.
__________________

Glyn M Ruck

And this"

Glyn,
Sorry it took a while to get back. This is what I found so far. When I unplugged the MAF sensor, I noticed no change in engine; it stayed smooth. I only have about 10000 miles on the replacement O2 sensors, they are black as if the engine is running rich. I tried to clean the MAF, bu I didn't have a torq socket that would fit in the tube thing for the bolt closest to the engine, so I could not get the air box out to more effectively clean the senor. I cleaned the throttle body, which wasn't bad at all. I ordered the Bosch spark plugs (58000 on the original plugs).
I got the P0420 code again today. I really do not want to change the )2 sensors again since they are $200 USD each and I should be able to get more than 10000 miles on them.
The Kleemann people in Europe said that this is the only case worldwide with my problem. I do not not know what is wrong. Any other suggestions?

Is your car using oil? what is your top up rate? Oil will poisen the Cat & render it unusable. Saw your post regarding plug change. How much oil on the piston crown? If there is visible oil the car should smoke.
__________________

Glyn M Ruck

And this:

quote"Re: need your expert advise

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul,
Sorry for the late reply. My DSL line has been down thanks to a construction idiot in the area that dug the whole lot up.

What the rear O2 (lambda) sensor is really telling you is that CO & CO2 are above the limit set in the system MAP. (by measuring unburnt oxygen).

Lambda sensors produce a voltage signal that recognises the amount of unburnt oxygen in the exhaust. An oxygen sensor is essentially a battery that generates its own voltage. When hot (at least 250 °C), the zirconium dioxide element in the sensor’s tip produces a voltage that varies according to the amount of oxygen in the exhaust compared to the ambient oxygen level in the outside air. The greater the difference, the higher the sensor’s output voltage.

Sensor output ranges from 0.2 volts (lean) to 0.8 volts (rich). A perfectly balanced or "stoichiometric" fuel mixture of 14.7 parts of air to 1 part of fuel gives an average reading of around 0.45 volts.

The lambda sensor’s output voltage doesn't remain constant, however. It flip-flops back and forth from rich to lean. Every time the voltage reverses itself and goes from high to low or vice versa, it’s called a “cross count”. A good O2 sensor on a injection system should fluctuate from rich to lean about once per second. If the number of cross counts is lower than this, it tells you the O2 sensor is getting sluggish and needs to be replaced.

Most lambda sensors will cycle from rich to lean in about 50 to 100 milliseconds, and from lean to rich in 75 to 150 milliseconds. This is referred to as the “transition time”. If the O2 sensor is taking significantly longer to reverse readings, this too is an indication that it is getting sluggish and may need to be replaced.

Observing the sensor’s waveform on a scope is a good way to see whether or not it is slowing down with age. If the sensor becomes sluggish, it can create hesitation problems during sudden acceleration.

Heated Oxygen Sensors - like Merc use reduce the warm-up time of the lambda sensor, an internal heating element is used. Heated O2 sensors can reach an operating temperature of as high as 500 degrees C in as little as eight seconds! Shorter warm-up time means the system can go into closed loop fuel control sooner, which reduces emissions and improves fuel economy. Heating the sensor also means it can be located further downstream from the exhaust manifold. Merc at the same time run on high idle after cold start to heat the catalyst.

If the average voltage from the lambda sensor is running high (more than 0.50V), it indicates a rich condition, possibly due to a bad MAP, MAF or Air Flow sensor or leaky injector. If the average voltage reading is running low (less than 0.45V), the mixture is running lean possibly due to a vacuum leak or because the sensor itself is bad.

I wish we knew the primary sensor voltage?? If we are rich post Cat we should be worse pre Cat.

Things to check - Has your car suffered the dreaded cam sensor leak & got oil into the engine harness that could be messing with the OS sensor readings? Do you have the pigtales fitted? Please look for even slight signs of oil in the O2 sensor connectors. This plays havoc with readings & thus mixture because it changes the voltage. Please also unplug your MAF & let the engine run on a default map - Not ideal but it should stop the vehicle from running rich if the MAF is at fault. While I doubt injector problems run two tanks of fuel, back to back, dosed with Techron Concentrate. If all this fails then we have an engine map that is inappropriate for your mods & you are going to have to get Kleeman involved. They must have seen this problem before. I'm doubtful that you will get good advice in this regard from the forum. I've never seen the issue raised.

I've had to delete our previous correspondence to get the system to accept my reply
__________________

Glyn M Ruck

And this
quote"

Glyn,
Sorry it took a while to get back. This is what I found so far. When I unplugged the MAF sensor, I noticed no change in engine; it stayed smooth. I only have about 10000 miles on the replacement O2 sensors, they are black as if the engine is running rich. I tried to clean the MAF, bu I didn't have a torq socket that would fit in the tube thing for the bolt closest to the engine, so I could not get the air box out to more effectively clean the senor. I cleaned the throttle body, which wasn't bad at all. I ordered the Bosch spark plugs (58000 on the original plugs).
I got the P0420 code again today. I really do not want to change the )2 sensors again since they are $200 USD each and I should be able to get more than 10000 miles on them.
The Kleemann people in Europe said that this is the only case worldwide with my problem. I do not not know what is wrong. Any other suggestions?

I see you have posted in the open forum without details - I will stay out of it. Let's see what comes up.

BTW - External oil leak can't get into your combustion chambers via the plugs.
__________________

Glyn M Ruck

Sorry that this is a bit disjointed but It's all over my Inbox & Sent items

Read in conjunction with the public forum.

Utahkompressor

^^^dude! you are the expert....thanks for the information!

But.....what I found is totally different than what I thought
I got P0128 'Coolant Thermostat (Coolant Temperature Below Thermostat Regulating Temperature)'......I'm kind of happy that it's not related to kleemann header...haha!

I already erased the code....just pray that it won't come back again!
I read the article on http://www.obd-codes.com/p0128
They did a pretty good job explaining the problem!
Anybody got this code on M271.....give me some inputs???

BTW....the article said 'PCM detected that the engine has not reached the required temperature level within a specified amount of time after starting the engine.'
I always keep the engine below 3000rpm until it reaches operating temp....could that be the problem???

LILBENZ230

Your thermostat is dead/dying. It's a cheap part and (supposedly) an easy DIY. There have been lots of those lately. I think the part itself is just like $30. How many miles are you at? 50-60k is where I've read on here that most people are having issues with them. It has nothing to do with the RPM. The thermostat dies stuck in the open position and the coolant flow keeps the engine from reaching it's required 87C optimum temp.

Utahkompressor

I have 51k miles on my car.....but the temp does go up to 87C
Have you changed your thermostat?

Glyn M Ruck

Good news - 87 deg C is the opening temp. I suggest you replace it. Don't mess around - it has nothing to do with running below 3000RPM until warm - that is a good practice - You are indeed lucky.

Thermostat is on the front of the engine - easy job

Here:

Utahkompressor

^^^Thanks bro!

I'll replace it if the CEL turn on again.

aerox high end

what did you do finaly about the problem with the code P0420 on the dash?if you fix it can you tell me how?because i have the same promblem and i need some informations...

Utahkompressor

I got P0420 too, I just erased it and it never come back.

So, try to erase the code first and see if it comes back.
Sometimes...the ECU can give you false alarm.
If it comes back, talk to Cory and go from there.
I guess the exhaust from kleemann header is not as clean as the OEM!

aerox high end

I have heard for one adapter that enters in catalyst?If you know or can you show me in one photograph what is this and when can i buy this adapter?thanksssssssssssss

jokerswld34

ive been getting both the system too lean and inefficient cat codes for a few months now consistently. i have tried reaching out to kleeman to no avail. getting very frustrated right now...

aerox high end

i don't understand you what did you say my friend,simply words

Utahkompressor

I believe that's the adapter you talked about...it goes between the header and the cat. You should have that in the kleemann package already and that's the only adapter I can think of.

Utahkompressor

Re-Tight all the header/cat bolts, erase the codes and see if it comes back.
It's possible that the tech didn't tight it well and fresh air enter the exhaust system...therefore, lean and inefficient cat codes came on.

aerox high end

ok i will do it that all and i tell you again.thanks all of you..