LILBENZ230

Here are the Blackstone reports for my M271 running a paper filter for the full 13,000 miles.



I wanted maximum exposure because I know a lot of members are concerned about the paper filters. Note that they got the engine wrong, thinking my car has the M111. I contacted them and have asked them to correct the report showing the M271 but that won't change the readings - it'll just let me compare averages.

W203E35

Good info for the M271 drivers. Change oil before 9,000? Is this because of the paper filter?

bdgdl08

So are you going to start running shorter intervals?

LILBENZ230

No. I'm going to run another analysis at 13,000 miles with a MANN rather than Hengst filter to see if there is any difference. I don't plan to run shorter intervals, however. I know I'll take heat for that but I really don't care.

bdgdl08

Too bad you don't have a fleece filter to compare it to.

LILBENZ230

Nope. None exist.

bdgdl08

I know. I just think it's an unequal comparison for the oil company to say that they are comparing your oil to oil that was changed at 6,000 miles. Are the fleece filters available anywhere in the world?

Glyn M Ruck

This sample analysis is not a disaster - The good thing is that silicon levels are at least under control. I would like to see a sample from a dusty area of operation. The iron & copper are obviously too high whereas bearing materials look OK. Copper is obviously coming from various bronze bushings & the like & not crank bearings or the tin & lead would be elevated. Iron is from iron coated cast aluminium pistons & cam & tappet wear. The additive system in the oil has held up very well. The oil thickening is a mystery - with close to zero insolubles we would need a TAN to establish whether it's oxidative thickening which I doubt knowing the base oil Mobil use. I think it's slight evapourative thickening where the light ends of the base oil have evapourated off. We would have to do a NOACK to prove this on a new sample of oil.

Try the Mann paper filter at the same mileage if you are happy to play guinea pig & let's see if it has an effect on accelerated wear. I curse MB for withdrawing the fleece filter from the US. Someone should approach one of the online parts suppliers like rmeuropean & ask them to bring in fleece filters direct from Mann + Hummel. At least have one central location where people that care can order from.

LILBENZ230

There's a MANN filter in the car right now. It says I have 6400 miles to go. The oil sample result was the Hengst, ordered from RMEuropean. The MANN filter can be had by purchasing a "Puralator" or "Purolator" filter from Advance Auto Parts in the USA. It's just a re-brand, says clearly on the filter "MANN - Made in Germany".

I was concerned with with the gas smell of the oil. I was really worried they were going to say the fuel content was too high but that seems fine.

d1no

So what filter do u think is better? MANN or Hengst.. I have to do my first oil change soon and want to know which one to get since we cant get fleece anymore.

mleskovar

Someone correct me if my thinking is wrong but changing filter types won't alter your readings. We're talking wear, as measured in PPM, not something filters are designed to trap. Changing oil, frequency of change, or driving habits may change these numbers but not changing the filter. Am I way off base with this thinking?

Glyn M Ruck

Your thinking is correct but skittled by the test methods. I don't know which method Blackstone is using to test elements but it will either be an AA (atomic absorbtion spectrophotometer) or ICP (inductively coupled plasma spectrophotometer) - likely ICP for mass sample turnaround. These instruments can't see larger particles that a filter can remove that could contribute to the wear. One would require to do a wear debris analysis to look for larger particles & dirt above their scope. One would not do this sort of analysis to check wear in a rear axle sample as an example because of the size of debris generated by a crownwheel & pinion.

So you are partially correct. Some of the copper & iron is from normal operating wear & some from larger particles of debris breaking through the oil film in pressure areas such as cam & tappet & piston thrust side.

LILBENZ230

This is something I've been meaning to put forth to you, Glyn:

Honestly.. biases because of your business background, OCD about caring for your cars, etc aside -- if each 13,000 mile change in my car has a result as posted above, when is this bit of excess wear going to cause a real and noticeable drivability-related problem? Not a loss in fuel economy or the loss of a quart of oil between changes, but a REAL problem that disables the engine and requires work?

You see, it's not that I doubt you (or ever have) about running about 9,000 miles on paper filters when that was your advice. Hell, even Blackstone backs you up. My thinking all along is that while it will cause slightly more wear with each 13,000 run it won't actually cause any noticeable problem until the car is essentially worthless anyway, if it ever even does. I'm thinking the M271 is much more likely to have a get-rid-of-the-car issue from something unrelated to oil changes long before this could cause anything.

I should put a disclaimer in case anyone thinks I plan to dump my 05 C230 onto some unsuspecting owner in the future. Whoever the next owner will be (if there ever is a next owner, that's unclear) will be given the car along with a (already thick!) file with every single record from my ownership. Every service of every type, including dates and mileages - including this and any future oil analysis.

Glyn M Ruck

Hi Matt - I can't answer this question. I do not know the present state of your engine. The cam & tappet area is the most heavily loaded in these engines & you are trying to ask me when you will wear through the case hardening on either the cam, or the follower, or both. Once this happens it's downhill fast. Due to variations in hardening I'll bet Benz would not even take a stab at it in a known unit.

I know the US is a toss out market with shorter life expectancy of things but if I were you I would reduce drain to 9000 miles at present wear rates & then see what the trend does.

Sorry - I know this is not what you want to hear. Sorry for hitting quote every time. The forum is not behaving at all from this end & it is the only way I can reply.

mleskovar

Yes, they use ICP.

Are all the filters that much different that some can't keep "the big chunks" out? I understand some just fall apart with excessive mileage but isn't that where the fleece comes in to play? I agree that 13K miles is too much for a paper filter though, I've seen pictures of them just disintegrating with high mileage.


Which part is correct I think the oil analysis is good to check properties (like insolubles, water, etc) to monitor oil health for change interval but it seems to me that the wear particles are only valuable if they are significantly (100%) out of line because of the small amounts present or if there's a sudden spike in one metal after a baseline has been set. All the analysis that I've seen for the same engines vary for each of the metals (up to 20% +/-) from each other. If any significant wear is happening I would expect noise/heat/smoke/power loss to be a more valuable (if too late) indication of a problem in our mass produced personal transportation vehicles. I believe oil analysis is a good thing but worrying about PPM of the different metals should be taken with a grain of salt.

splinter

Not necessarily always the case, learned amigo.

Some Yanks choose to be austere if for no other reason than the sake of doing so.
How many cans, bottles and papers must a family recycle to reach raw material equivalency of just one decommissioned vehicle?

Hauled a tonne of masonry supplies for a neighbor’s project today.
Bloody GMC in my stead has thus far muscled through the 230,000 mile/370,000 kilometer threshold on its original engine.
Still consumes less than a litre between OCIs.
Like to believe its regular maintenance regimen has been a contributing factor.

addendum:
Our potent M112 continues to remain tighter than a crab’s *** after a steady diet of Mann+Hummel synthetic filters.
FSS fails those M271 folk stateside.

bdgdl08

Just to weigh in, I checked in on my M112 CLK this weekend, and it's still doing fine. I didn't check the mileage, but it's been a year since it was at 232,000+ and it hasn't had any problems. Just regular maintenance and some decently hard driving.

Glyn M Ruck

There is a huge difference between cellulose filter media & synthetic media. In a paper mill you cannot control the media very well at all. In simple terms the hole sizes vary vastly in paper media which is displayed by the large difference in nominal & absolute ratios on such media - whereas the "hole" size in synthetic media is very controlled giving you with the fleece approx 1 micron nominal 3 micron absolute - 75 beta ratio. So large particles get through the big holes in paper. Paper also suffers greater pump through of debris with varying pressure across the media. (oil pressure)

You have partially answered yourself. The entire intention of oil sample analysis is to identify abnormal wear & take corrective action to prevent catastrophic failure at a later date - part of the preventive maintenance regime.

In ideal situations one would plot a trend over many samples from the same unit. With Blackstone we have a large database of thousands of samples of Mobil 1 running in similar M271 engines which helps immensely. If I was Matt I would, at worst, allow another 13,000 miles to see if Mann paper media is any better than Hengst. If iron & copper levels remain elevated, which I expect them to, I would take corrective action by reducing drain interval to get contaminants out of the engine. Then we continue monitoring to check the efficacy of the approach & make further corrections if necessary. It would be nice to install a fleece filter but that is not easily achievable. Blackstone's recommendation is sensible.

By the time you get a swing in results in the 100's of % it's too late & the unit is damaged with a rebuild in sight. One never want's to get anywhere near "noise/heat/smoke/power loss".

Even if the entire upshot of this exercise were to prove that the punishment Matt meters out to his engine was the cause of elevated wear then the prudent reaction would be to reduce drain interval. In a large fleet one would possibly take this further & do a wear debris analysis & an ISO or NAS particle size distribution but this is not practical or cost effective in this situation. Much can be extrapolated from the results given by a trusty ICP. That is why Blackstone is in business.

LILBENZ230

There is a Mann filter in now. I'll send the analysis off to them after the next change. I've also asked them to re-do this report with averages from the M271 rather than M111 just for records sake. Although I recently did a dyno-mode oil level check when the car was stone cold and it revealed it was a 4.9L instead of 5.5L as it should be. I have since added 3/4 of a quart of M1 0W-40. Will this skewer the results - adding new oil halfway between changes? The oil sample from above had nothing added the whole 13,000 miles.

Wish I could get fleece filters.

mleskovar

I believe there's a question on the information slip that asks it if any oil has been added since the last change and they extrapolate the results accordingly.

Glyn M Ruck

Matt - did you have any top up during the previous 13,000 miles? I doubt that Blackstone will in fact change their findings on the next sample. It's not that simple but I'm sure if you mention it to them they will add it to the report & note that it has "sweetened" the results.

It all depends if the oil that was consumed took contaminants with it or merely concentrated what was left in the sump. If it concentrated what was left in the sump it will make little difference. If it sucked dirty oil down the guides or blew it past the rings then the top up will sweeten the results.

In reality a combination of the two consumption mechanisms is likely & it's the ratio of one mechanism vs another that complicates the issue.

Glyn M Ruck

To splinter - Yes kind sir - I hear you! - I hate generalising.

LILBENZ230

No top-up last oil run. 13,000 miles without a drop added. The car used .4L in 13,000 miles.

LILBENZ230

The modified report to show averages for the M271 are back, and this does change things a bit. I can't post the file just yet because I'm not on my computer but here is what it now says:

Success! I'm glad my engine is doing well. I've got 6,000 miles left before another change and I will NOT be reducing this 13,000 mile run. The car's lifetime oil changes are as follows:

9,000 miles (time expired)
17,000 miles (time expired)
29,000 miles (time expired) - First under my ownership
42,000 miles
55,000 miles
68,000 miles

Glyn M Ruck

OK - so what they are saying is that M271 engines display typically higher wear rates than M111s - Then this is OK - all depends what is normal. Now let's try & get a sample from a dusty area to see how that filter really works.

eg. Mack engines show twice the wear rate of Cummins engines