TTMotorsports

The major problem with your assumptions Karo is that you were hooked up to your C350, correct?

Let me address few things so you can all understand what I did through SDS. I've built some of the fastest MB's, as well as many other manufacturers, in the US and usually don't fiddle around with 200hp cars (no disrespect but true). Donny was very cool and humble when we were corresponding about me doing his Kleemann headers/cat install and if you have talked to any member on MBWorld that I have helped they will tell you that I HELP EVERYBODY if asked. Now some clarifications on Karo's assumptions.

While there are some of the sub-screens that are shared throughout all MB chassis/ECU's they do not share all of the subsections.These subsections relate to the W203 C230K and there are actually 9 STAGES of fueling changes that can be made. Stage 1 was 10% fuel increase and Stage 2 was 15% so I wasn't guessing like you assumed. Since you have SDS and seem to think you are an expert, please go into DAS Simulation and use the 230k model and take a look for yourself. You will see all 9 stages of fuel manipulations.

Your condescending point of your post that alluded to me "guessing" and as you said "didn't know what he was doing" since we didn't "strap it to a dyno" is quite comical. The parameters that I can manipulate and change through SDS are vast, proven and, by the way, I DO HAVE DEVELOPER MODE!

You cannot duplicate real airflow on a dyno unless you are in a wind tunnel and I believe there are only 2 dynos in the US with a wind tunnel. Datalogging on the street will give you much more accurate information then being strapped on a dyno. Not opinion.........FACT.

The ignition/timing tables that we set to min 93 are more aggressive than the 91 since in our side of the country 93 is the octane of super unleaded unlike parts of the country that have 91 max. And yes you do make more power with the elevated timing tables.

It has NOTHING to do with having the engine management work an extra step. WTF does that even mean?

I quote:
Karo's Conclusion:
I have a feeling you are getting the extra psi in boost because of this adaptation reset. All these people are praising Bruce but in your post it seems like he didn't know what he was doing because you mentioned how he said look what I found which definitely sounds like he didn't know what he was doing. Also I understand find you put headers and downpipe but you do a whole new fuel "tune" and you don't strap it on to a dyno to see what results you are getting? For the people out there a real tune is done through the ecu. Don't mess with this Mickey Mouse DAS (SDS) "tunes". Also sounds like Bruce wasn't in Developer Mode. You can't really do ANY engine tunes in regular DAS. You need Developer but even with Developer you can't code the ECU

We didn't tune the car like you keep saying but I was able to change some variables to see if that would make a performance difference and according to the owner....IT DID! While a pre and post dyno would have been ideal it wasn't done.

You have shown your lack of true understanding what can be accomplished with a SDS through the OBD2 port. I can also raise/remove your top speed limiter through SDS, lower ANY Airmatic car through SDS, change your alarm/arming tones, make your radiator fan come on sooner to keep your car cooler, activate both rear foglights instead of just one, activate panic braking to your rear tails, etc. All of this has been done by a person that doesn't know what he is doing!

PS Coding the ECU is what you do with SDS but you cannot flash a new software file with SDS. All of the changes that I make are then coded to the ECU through SDS.

If there are any members that would like me to explain in depth what was done I will gladly speak to you on the phone and answer any questions that you have. I don't appreciate getting condescending posts from someone that isn't even looking at the correct model and just seems to want to be a hater just like so many on MBWorld.

Karo-
You probably should have done some more research into who you were calling out and my experience and attention to helping all MBWorld members by trying to make there cars as great as possible. The extra boost is probably associated with less restriction/back pressure on the exhaust side letting the blower spin just a little faster and this was corroborated by a boost gauge that the OP had installed on his car already. Another lb of boost + headers= MORE POWER!

TTMotorsports

Thanks Anthony. Welcome back bro!

timmynabenz

i think Karo made it very VERY clear he was not calling anybody out or trying to put you down we all now Karo, he doesnt like to cause problems.. well, unless your Patrick

but dude, thanks for explaining, you seem to do some SICK *** stuff! i mean, ive been digging and

I had a few questions, PM'd you!!

TTMotorsports

Karo wrote:
"All these people are praising Bruce but in your post it seems like he didn't know what he was doing because you mentioned how he said look what I found which definitely sounds like he didn't know what he was doing."

Sounds like a call out to me.

Saying I don't know what I was doing and constantly referencing me?

W203E35

Let's get couple of facts straight before we move on.

Look at the post I made it was late at night and I might have been a little off so I apologize if I said something that offended you, I should have reworded my thoughts correctly.

In no way do I think I am an expert with DAS. Trust me and all the members know this too. I'm not a cocky **** and I don't think I know about cars. I always like to help out people too and this to me sounded like it was no tune and I was a little aggressive when members PMed me to get this done on their car. You can ask anyone on this forum that I always go out of my way to help members out.

----------------------------

Below are real questions and not calling Bruce out.

The 9 stages that you were talking about only 2 stages pertain to what you were trying to accomplish correct? Stage 1 with enriches the fuel mixture by 10% and Stage 2 with 15%. When I said blindly I meant how much did know to enrich with the Kleemann header? Do you believe the car is running lean with the Kleemann header?

Also the RON that you set from 91 "minimum" to 93 "minimum" what would that do?

I do understand you built 10 second benzes and I do understand you know what your talking about when it comes to tunes but when you're doing tunes on engines you don't do before and after pulls?

Also when I said blindly I didn't mean you didn't know what you were doing but you didn't get numbers on the car to see how it's running. I might be right or wrong on this..maybe you can explain to us what your thoughts are.

Again sorry if I offended you but the bottom line is you can't really tune a fuel to air with DAS and I know a lot of members can agree with me.

TTMotorsports

The first 2 stages are for straight fuel enrichment throughout the entire RPM range. The remaining 7 stages are used to mitigate driveability/idling issues related to certain areas in the RPM range and with respect to operating temperatures. The ECU can correct for a rich running cars through the monitoring of the O2 sensors but the increase in fuel was more for the possibility of more boost being made with the less restricted exhaust side of the engine.

The Min 93 octane is a more aggressive timing table(YOU MUST USE 93 OCTANE to get the maximum effect for this setting) that is already in the ECU which means that there would be less chance of detonation which would cause the ECU to pull timing to correct the detonation. When timing is pulled you lose power especially on FI cars. Even if you did run a lower octane by mistake, the knock sensors would pull timing to mitigate the detonation and you would lose some power but you would hurt the engine.

No tune was ever done on the OP's car. There were a couple items that we tried to see if it would work and according to the OP it did. People are too caught up into the use of dynos and since this isn't a true ECU tune there is no need to dyno. There are sooo many safety devices within the ECU and engine that just manipulating a couple of variable will not give you cause for concern. We are talking about relatively low Hp/tq cars and these changes are tried and true with cars making more than double that power figure.

It is all about driveability. I asked the OP to take the car out and "stomp the ***** out of it" and tell me how it feels. If there were any issues I would have reversed some of the things that I changed but I have done these same things to countless MB's and it always works. We'll just chalk this one up to experience.

I've written this a few times already, I never said I did a tune but I did manipulate some variables that are now coded to the ECU. WTF does tune a fuel to air mean? If you are talking about A/F ratios then you are correct but you are the only one that seems to keep harping on that.

timmynabenz

johnand

Bruce covered some of this, but I just wanted to respond. I agree that the extra boost that the OP got was from the Kleenman upgrades allowing the engine to breathe easier, thus allowing the SC to spin a little bit faster.

Karo, you are getting too hung up on calling this a "tune". All it is is some ECM manipulations. Like I have tried to explain a few times, I believe the OP got some gains from the Kleenman upgrade AND the changing of the octane map to 93. (Again, assuming the OP is running at least 93 octane all the time) Higher octane does mean MORE HP, if the timing is aggressive enough to take advantage. But, if it is not, then yes, you gain NOTHING, other than a lighter wallet. Again, for max performance you want the car to run on the hairy edge of knocking, w/o tripping the knock sensor. The higher the octane the more advanced the timing can be. The more advanced the timing can be, the more power you will produce.

Thanks for the vote of confidence on the tuning, but REAL ECM tuning is extremely time consuming work, and frankly is above my pay grade. I have done some myself on my Nissan, but just never had the patience it takes to do it right. But, I do believe there are some "tweaks" to ECM parameters in STAR that can SLIGHTLY improve performance.

johnand

Bruce, I am with you 100% on the increase of the octane map, as you can see from my posts, trying to explain how that works. But, I am confused on the fuel enrichment setting. Say you do stage1 10% enrich, won't the ECM just reduce the injector pulse width ~10% because the O2 sensor would see the fuel mixture as rich? Now that question is assuming non forced-induction cars. On the OP car, I can see if the SC produced more boost, that 10% could help it from leaning out on full boost.

W203E35

John, why did Mercedes put the m272 to 89? Why didn't they put this to 91 from factory? It seems the knock sensors will adjust so why set it lower? Is this so if 91 is filled up at non name brand stations that might be really lower grade so it doesn't affect the car?

zerocover

I have a question, from a purely academic standpoint. Not calling anyone out just curious.

Why did the pressure in the intake manifold go up (I'd imagine that’s where the boost gauge takes it readings from)?

The way I understand it.
The installation of headers reduces the exhaust backpressure and ideally increases scavenging which would further reduce pressure at the exhaust manifold. When the exhaust valve opens now more exhaust flows out due to less restriction, so when the intake manifold opens there is more air getting drawn into the cylinder. More air in the cylinder should mean less air in the intake manifold, yes?
The supercharger being just a pump would be a more efficient pump because of the differential between ambient pressure and manifold pressure would be less, so it wouldn’t have to work as hard. But that would only allow it to pump more CFM of air per revolution.
So in this example the manifold pressure would be ever so slightly lower but more air would flow through the engine, because of the increased pumping efficiency (two very good things)

I just can’t fathom how less pressure on one part of the engine would increase it at another. If this was a turbo charger then it would make perfect sense but the supercharger is crank driven.

Could it be that enrichening the fuel made the car put even more pressure on the system, which is making the supercharger work harder? Ie the effect of running richer made more of a difference then the header (above example in reverse)?

W203E35

I want to set mine to 91 and see what I get.

johnand

Karo,

I haven't had a chance to play with the settings yet, but is the M272 set at 89 by default? The OP said his was set at 91 by default. If MB did set it to 89 by default, I suspect it is for 2 reasons. 1)A lot of US gas is CRAP. 2)A lot of Americans are cheap, and run regular gas in their premium recommended cars. I think MB is assuming worse case scenario.

I think you are missing the most important point on the knock sensors. If the knock sensors detect knock, they retard timing quite a bit. If they continue to detect knock once they have already retarded timing, they retard it A LOT. If you are in a constant state of tripping the knock sensors, you will most definitely decrease performance. But, the most important part of that to remember, is every time the knock sensor is tripped, it IS BECAUSE THE ENGINE IS KNOCKING. Yes, the ECM acts very fast when detecting knock, and retards timing very quickly, but it still IS KNOCKING. That is why you do not want to set it higher than the normal conditions you will encounter. That is why MB sets it lower to cover their ***.

W203E35

On mine it was but I'm guessing this is because in California our highest is 91. Great information John, I learned a lot of information from you.

Another quick question.

When you say the engine knocks can't you just open your door and let him in to stop the knocking??

W203E35

This whole heat was my fault. The OP mentioned about PowerChip and their gains and referred to what was done here and I thought that's what was trying to be done here (a tune). I guess I got thrown off when members PMed me to do this because of increase in huge power. I don't know Bruce but the OP's comment sounded like he wasn't too sure what he found (i'm sure that's not the case) and that threw me off.

I'll end it with an apology but the insane response and power being felt is the Headers and Adaptation Reset which was my main point (i might be wrong).

A lot of Sponsors get called out regardless of their reputation but it's the way they handle something that matters

timmynabenz

i was just talking to my friend who is a tech, and he said every mercedes i actually set to 87 or 89 (cant remember) from the factory, and you can actually get bettter throttle response but setting it up to 93, and running 91

W203E35

Are you sure about raising it to 93 and running 91? I usually have a hard time putting my thoughts to writing and usually comes out the wrong way but here it goes.

You have knock sensors in your engine which sense a knock and retard the timing.

A knock HAS to happen in order for the knock sensor to work (retard timing).

When an engine knocks the engine temperature raises drastically. Now this doesn't seem bad but with the alloy blocks this can be gruesome.

Now setting your car to use 93 but you use 91 this means your engine is going to knock. I believe mercedes sets the octane (atleast on mine) to 89 to protect the longevity of engines. This way of 91 is used and is cheap it can not harm the engine. Also if 89 is used it will still not harm the engine.

W203E35

I will admit you will see some slight improvements on changing the RON settings but for what price? Again this whole thing started because I thought this whole thread was an alternative to Powerchip. I guess if you want a mod you are compromising safety and longevity.

Someone please correct me when you guys mentioned how running rich was fine because the 02 sensors will adjust won't running too rich mess up your 02 sensors?

Again this has nothing to do with Bruce but getting this all sorted out. A member wants to try this out and I'm just looking out for him.

Zero has a good question (very knowledgeable guy). Anyone got his answer?

W203E35

I just now sent Bruce a PM apologizing for being a huge douche. I jumped the gun to quick because the idiot that I am I thought the OP was saying they did a ECU tune and that they got 20hp for Headers and 18hp from this tune.

I did this test personally on my car.

I set it to 91 and NOT 93 my results are as follows:

I didn't notice any changes off the line (acceleration).

I did feel better response (smoother) in mid RPM range but couldn't tell if it was quicker.

I then reset the adaptations and everything felt like crap because now the car has to learn driving habits. I hit the freeway and did a couple of insane runs but then I caught up to traffic and turned back. As I was getting home I noticed that the car was starting to behave a little better.

The only thing I really notice was the RPM was rising more freely, felt less restrictive but didn't feel quick enough for me to notice a difference.

I may have to drive it around for a little while.

My honest conclusion is there is a difference but I don't know if it's anything noticeable on a stock w203. Maybe with a Kleemann header it might be different but my honest opinion this isn't worth it for us Cali guys because of the ****ty gas we get. Also the older engines will be more prone to knock. Members have noticed one type of gas brand works better for their cars than another. I would do research on what brand works best and only put that brand if you are going to go with this step.

I can not comment on running rich or doing the fuel map for Kompressor models but on the NA again I did feel a smoother RPM range.

Glyn M Ruck

Karo has PMed me. I'm not about to enter this argument - we have been down this road too often.

- Myself & timdf ex Cosworth have posted ad nauseum previously on the pitfalls of dyno testing without a multi million dollar facility that can control everything such as IAT & density up to & including altitude compensation such as Sastech in Johannesburg. Even then repeatability is suspect. We both recommend standing quarter miles as the easiest test for the man in the street in similar atmospheric conditions & correction for any changes. Should you wish to query this please search the 203 & 204 forums for our numerous articles in this regard & the resultant fallout. Please precede any back to back testing by a throttle reset to ensure you achieve WOT - something most forget. You are in a hole in this regard because you took no prior performance or atmospheric measurements so go & find another similar car in a good state of tune to run against. Remember to record wind direction & speed. You also need a vehicle with the same size tyres (especially width). These mess severely with cd. Tyres machined close to slick on the road or a rolling road dyno would be ideal.

- The Kleeman headers & Cat improve an engines overall breathing. An engine is an air pump. More air means better volumetric efficiency and that you can ad more fuel within reason and maintenance of ideal AF ratio for that specific engine. More fuel, as long as of the same density and completely combusted, means more output in heat & horsepower. The horsepower is dependent on engine efficiency. This Kleeman mod frequently triggers a CEL suggesting that Cat performance is sub par. This previously reported numerous times. Kleeman have no fix.

- Within reason for a specific engine design - advancing ignition timing without pre ignition, detonation, pinging or knock - by whatever name you prefer will increase output – both heat & horsepower

- The octane rating of a fuel is in simple terms it's ability to counteract knock. I have discussed octane rating in detail previously (please search). All substances that suppress knock are not benign & some effect flame front propagation negatively. Thus effecting potential output adversely. Only use premium fuel from a reputable major.

- The question of base fuel octane setting in the engine maps with STAR. - The STAR uses RON settings (Research Octane Number). American pumps unlike most of the world reflect AKI (Anti Knock Index - (R+M)/2)). Mercedes engine maps are extremely conservative as reported on the 204 forum by an individual from Benz (dw8083) that actually did the mapping for them, who came to my rescue in a huge fight there. With standard Benz maps you can run them on pretty crap fuel without damage due to excellent knock sensing, which is why the Diesotto works, and conservative mapping. The ECU will simply retard the timing at the expense of engine output. The danger comes when the ECU map will not permit sufficient retardation.
90-91 AKI = 95 RON – You can probably safely raise the map to 93RON minimum but then you need to make sure you only use premium fuel & preferably premium fuel without 10% alcohol as in Cali & some other states. Alcohols tend to raise RON substantially while having far less of an effect on MON thus effecting the AKI as stated on American pumps. I exclude E85 which is very high ethanol content & high octane and would seem ideal for these sorts of tunes IF YOU HAVE A FLEXFUEL CAR – Don’t use the stuff otherwise or you will swell elastomers & corrode the fuel system to hell with water present.

- Increasing fueling rate appropriately & allowing a map that advances timing would seem appropriate for this modification if this is what these adjustments with the STAR truly achieve. I do not pretend to be a Benz specialist or a boffin with the STAR. I make my comments from base principles. I have not read this thread in detail – I am responding to a question from Karo.

Good luck all

johnand

Thanks Glyn for your input, as it is always appreciated

So, since I run nothing but top tier premium and E85, I should set mine to 93 for octane and slightly enriched for fuel. I will make those changes and report back.

Glyn M Ruck

John - basically - Yes. I know you only run high octane fuel. Regarding slight enrichment, while you have not changed engine breathing the standard tune is for economy & blowing a squeaky clean exhaust. A little extra fuel could well give some benefits - especially in driveability

W203E35

Thanks for your reply Glyn, very helpful info (as always). Sounds like this is safe to do so I will test it out on a members Kompressor engine and report back as well.

I did PM Glyn to get his input on this to see if it's an ideal and safe tweak for a member.

Thanks Glyn and John. I learned a lot from the info you guys provided.

W203E35

Bruce got back to me and everything is cool now. He is very knowledgeable and I feel terrible for questioning and also insulting his intelligence. Again I would like to apologize to Bruce and wish him and his company luck in the future. He taught most of us something new and instead of thanking him I questioned him and insulted him which I feel like a total *** for doing.

Sorry for my behavior Bruce and thanks for the info.

SeaCoupe

Bruce, I'm appreciative that you have taken the time to come in here and share some knowledge. I hope that we don't rub you the wrong way in here. Too many times, we get someone in here talking big things with nothing to deliver. Heck, I even recall someone coming in here and saying that tieing a resistor into an 02 output was the way to go.

Karo is a good guy whose intentions are true.

Okay, I'm hoping to get a take away of knowledge here.

Can Star/SDS give me a real time A/F number. As in you get in the car, stomp it and have someone read the resultant numbers?

My beloved M111 engine is a lean runner. Using The SDS, it would seem that I could enrich to the stage 2 for 15% more fuel? Believe me, I could use it. I have a Kleeman Pulley, and a ported S/C.

I'll make my car the guinea pig for the M111. Karo, where you at!

Ed