DCNYC

First post and hopefully respectable. Here goes a long post....

So, been lurking these forums from time to time. Not new to tuning cars but told myself I wouldn’t do it to the Merc I bought back in '05. The heavy tuning done on my cars in the past took away from drivability and maintenance is always time consuming.

So here I am in 2010 and bored of the 230k SS. I think I know enough about this car to give it a fun factor.

Before everyone rushes in with an opinion of the I4, keep in mind, I want to car more fun to drive and not heavily modded. Ive got a 300HP 06 5.7L Hemi to play with that has an addition 100HP bolted on. Fun to drive but wheres the fun in bolting on 100HP?

So here we go:
1. Kleeman Header: Contacted Corey at Kleeman who was awesome with communication and even went to get special approval for a deal for their Stainless header with High Flow Cat (upgraded from generation 1). Trust me when I say I got a good deal. Contact him yourself. Not going to post prices here. Well, Hopefully no issues with stock O2 sensors. Not sure why you would still need to cut a 4 inch section of the downpipe flange but Im guessing fitment with a clamp makes this 'fit' regional specs for the M271. Lets face it, the performance part sold in limited quantities compared to a stock manifold which goes in every single car made is going to need trade offs. Stainless steal, high flow cat, performance oriented vs. Fitment and Emission oriented. Whats different from 1st gen Kleeman headers is that the additional capped bung before the Cat is gone. So pre o2 in the header, post o2 after cat. Now, ive installed a bosal ceramic header back in '04 on a previous car and it was a blast but I didn’t have the down time and knew I wanted a weld to the downpipe.

1a. Tuning Technology Install: Didn’t want to pay any Indy mechanic to do the install because I was specific on how I wanted the weld and needed someone who understood the intentions here. Keep in mind this was the best decision made for STEP 1 and I will explain why in STEP 2. A friend referred me to a local tuning shop known as Tuning Technology Motorsports. Again, ive been around long enough to see the early 90's shops (locally and more extensive on the West Coast) where a bunch of teenagers and doing pretty extensive mods on import racers (which people here like to call 'Ricers' but lets give them credit where credit is due, they pioneered what is known today). So made an appointment with Bruce and explained this is no AMG 55 or 63, Black Series or Lambo (which 'his company' has done). He assured me not to worry. Made the trip down and of course, a 10 second E55 was parked right in front and an SL55 in the garage. Im thinking, meet Bruce, hes going to get one of his helpers to do the car. Boy was I shocked! Bruce is hands on and only trusts himself. Get this, he researched in EPC about my car (which I knew cause I took a look at EPC too) but he actually took time to prepare for his job. Hes like a man with a teenagers vision if I had to put it in simplest terms. Nothing what I expected. He IS THE MAN. Lets put it this way, he is doing what I thought would be the perfect job back in '04 when I was modding in my own garage. Making things happen. ***** to the wall. I spent a whole hour just chatting with him, and what he can do. Hes no salesman, in fact, im brining a part I bought from his distributor and hes just doing the install. I left shocked, but glad, Bruce himself is going to be doing the work working on my car and hes done some diligence and knows what hes facing beforehand. I have been to enough mechanics as we all probably have. Who tells you to drive the car onto the lift, and takes a look with you under your car and spends the time doing that? Well, he sure did. He took what he saw in EPC and wanted to confirm what he was thinking. The install? Perfect weld, no exhaust leaks, Hangers back on, clearance for any engine movement. Even swapped out some bolts in the midpipe in case we doing any exhaust mod later. Couldn’t be happier.

2. Tuning Technology ECU changes via SDS: Now, ive heard of SDS. It’s the Star diagnostic all Benz service have. Ive researched and reached out to PowerChip group who tell me they will advance timing to match fuel used in two Stages 91RON or 93RON. You can read their brochure which concentrates on this generic Flash. Now, ive always wondered how can someone get a tune by shipping off the ECU? What could they possibly do without the car and understanding mods made? Is it an existing file from someone elses car? All my research and im leery on sending away the ECU for a lightly modified car. After returning later in the day to TT Motorsports, I find Bruce with SDS hooked up to my car, hes too busy to greet me, so I walk in and up to his SDS workstation. Hes like 'dude' I found some interesting stuff but want you to take a look before making any changes. I wanted to crack up but was too intrigued by what he could have possibly found.

A. Timing - MB states to use premium fuel only. I suspected prob set to 89RON conservatively for 'normal' owners. We were surprised to see the c230k set at 91RON. Why are tuning companies advertising Stage 1 91RON? Maybe internationally? But the car was set with timing to match 91RON factory. We bumped that up to 93RON of course.

B. Fuel Stage - Bruce found a fuel stage settings for this car! Stage 1 (10% increase) and Stage 2 (15% increase). Im guessing MB prepared for supercharger issues via ECU stages for fuel. In the event the forced induction car is lean a service technician could probably up the fuel in pre-set stages to address the issue? This was my conclusion b/c I read in a forum someone in the UK had idle problems and a service technician made this mod via SDS as he explained. We bumped that to Stage 1 at this time to just slightly enrich the A/F ratio conservatively. Without a pulley we figured the car is prob not running lean and give this a try.

C. Adaptation Map - We wanted to clear the adaptation on the ECU to 'learn' from the new headers and changes above. All we did here was clear the adaptation the ECU has and knowing the car will feel strange early as it learns driving habits and changes in the exhaust manifold and fuel/timing.

D. Fan trigger - If you don’t already know, the terrible Intercooler design makes this car susceptible to heat soak. Summer driving is a drag. We were surprised to see you can trigger the fan from 15 degrees to 40 degrees early in this car. We bumped that trigger to 15 degrees earlier to help with the heat soak.

E. Remote Keyless Chirp/Sound - Didn’t realize this until I got home but Bruce threw in a surprise by changing the sound on the remote keyless sound. I think the W203 allows for region changes in SDS. I think its more similar to later model Benz we see now. Gotta let Bruce confirm here but I get a kick out of the sound and mention this more than anything above to 'regular' people. Hah! I believe the region setting is Netherlands from what I've read in forums?

----- THE DRIVE
So Bruce tells me to beat the crap out of the car leaving the shop where theres a four lane local highway with lights. The exhaust is noticeable louder (stock exhaust). Raspy on first gear high RPMS but once its warm that goes away. Its subtle but obviously louder from the flow. The car is pulling like a completely new car. I did NOT expect such drastic changes from what was done. Claims are 20HP from Kleeman and ECU tunes claim 18HP from chip companies but lets be realistic. The truth however, numbers aside, is the car is completely different.

----- HERE IS THE KICKER
The boost gauge I got installed would NEVER go above 11psi stock. For two months of driving I mean never! I even opened the air box once to let more air in (knowing its engine air) and I couldn’t get over 11psi. Guess what? Im getting 12! Any idea what a pound of boost does to this little car? Probably 10-15 HP from my calcs. Its no wonder this car feels different. Bruces tricks on SDS or maybe in conjunction of the headers? Is it possible the additional fuel dump and advance timing is tricking the ECU to allow the increase in boost? Will the ECU adapt and bring it back down? Im going to monitor and let the residents here chime in. Got a friend with an A4 2.0T tuned for 15pounds and he claims this car is faster. He says he saw 12.5psi when he opened up 0-100. One thing I know for sure, I wasn’t able to take his car off a line prior to this in case everyone is thinking its 'perceived' difference. These two facts is enough proof without dyno numbers.


Credits:

http://www.ttmotorsports.com/
http://www.kleemann.dk/Contact/DealerResult.aspx?id=e2afaa0f-1503-45bb-b073-d8089c275d36

Residents who I've learned from: Drex/Mig/Puggy/Frank....


Pics below:

1. Kleeman M271 Header pre-install
2. 10 Sec E55 @ TT Motorsports
3. Header post install
4. Hemi project: CAI Intake, Borla Cat Back, JET Stage 2 ECU
5. Hemi Project: Taking a dremel to the back bumper #1
6. Hemi Project: Taking a dremel to the back bumper #2

zerocover

Where is this shop located!

Your handle being DCNYC I can only hope its near by. I'm def in need of a shop that can do some DAS work for me, and this place sounds unreal.

DCNYC

zerocover,

Its in Farmingdale LI. I work in Manhattan and live in Qns. Nassau was my old stomping ground but this is not far at all. Border of Suffolk.

Hes all over the 63 and 55 AMG boards. Im gonna get him to chime in here.

I did leave a link to TTM's site if interested.

SeaCoupe

I predict a winning thread. Post up a dyno chart and you are going into epic territory. Welcome to the board amigo.

Ed

TVT_DESIGN

Bruce does some killer cars. They are a great shop to work with. Products look nice and I'm glad to hear this really woke the car up.

timmynabenz

ooo charlie needs to see this

sounds really sick dude!! congrats! cantw ait to see the dyno charts!!

+1 on this being a winning thread

CoupeCrazy03

So the majority of the ecu tune was done via SDS?? Who can do all these settings here in San Diego?

Dr.Fox

Anything for the old M111?

W203E35

By no means am I calling you out or Bruce but I'm not really feeling it.

I'll give you my side of the story and maybe we can all come to a conclusion.

I fiddled with DAS today and below is my explanation of why I feel this whole thing isn't worth it.

Timing:
The timing that you were mentioning is just set so the engine management doesn't work an extra step. The value that you changed from 91 to 93 is the minimum value. When it was originally set to 91 and you put 93 you would get the same effect because the sensors would just adjust. This is just to save the engine management from doing extra steps. Also now that you set your minimum to 93 you are endangering your engine because of detonation because you are telling your engine "hey the minimum I'm going to ever put is 93 so just start off at 93 octane"

See below it says minimum value and also has a warning about setting the correct because of detonation (better to be safe than sorry). I wouldn't want to risk any engine damage. Again this is Minimum Value and your computer will adjust accordingly.




Fuel:
The fuel stages that you were talking about "Stage1" and "Stage2" was done blindly. Sounds like you guys guessed on these because you didn't even strap it onto a dyno. You might be running to rich and risk blowing out o2 sensors (I was gonna say CAT but I think Kleemann eliminates the cats). See picture below




Adaptation Map:
The placebo effect of people feeling they have gained insane amount of HP because of better throttle response.




Conclusion:
I have a feeling you are getting the extra psi in boost because of this adaptation reset. All these people are praising Bruce but in your post it seems like he didn't know what he was doing because you mentioned how he said look what I found which definitely sounds like he didn't know what he was doing. Also I understand find you put headers and downpipe but you do a whole new fuel "tune" and you don't strap it on to a dyno to see what results you are getting? For the people out there a real tune is done through the ecu. Don't mess with this Mickey Mouse DAS (SDS) "tunes". Also sounds like Bruce wasn't in Developer Mode. You can't really do ANY engine tunes in regular DAS. You need Developer but even with Developer you can't code the ECU.

Hopefully someone can prove me wrong but I feel this all is a waste of time and a placebo effect of the Reset of Adaptation. Even with the little Reset of Transmission Adaptation the car feels like it gained extra horses (John knows he did it).

W203E35

CoupeCrazy03

I would like to see Bruce's rebuttal, looks like Karo did his research since he has access to DAS

W203E35

I'm not trying to pick fight here or trying to put Bruce down but if members are hitting me up asking me to help them with this we have to sort this out because i'm not going to mess up a members car because something was posted.

The only thing that really happened here is maybe fuel is a little more rich and of course the reset of adaptation AND DEFINITELY NO ECU TUNE.

CoupeCrazy03

:paranoid:

johnand

I would have to basically agree with Karo on this. Although I have a STAR system, I have never messed with those settings. Maybe I'll play with them a little and report back here. But, bottom line is without doing before and after dyno's, I would be suspect of any improvement, on the fuel settings. I definitely agree 100% with Karo on this, and guessing on these fuel settings w/o dyno may do more harm than good.

Indeed resetting adaptations gives a perceived improvement to performance, but doubt there is any real world improvement. When it comes to transmission adaptations, I personally don't like the affects of resetting them, as the transmission shifts are very harsh for a few days.

Now, the octane setting, I have a little bit of a different take, but may be wrong. If you set it to 93 octane and NEVER run anything less, I suspect you will see an slight improvement in performance, as the timing will be slightly advanced vs. the 91 and 89 settings. As long as the octane is high enough to keep the knock sensor from ever pulling back timing, you should get an improvement. But, if you set it to 93 and run 92 or less octane gas regularly, I believe you are shooting yourself in the foot, and may actually see a decrease in performance, because the knock sensor will be actively pulling back timing. To get max performance, you basically want the timing advanced as much as possible w/o ever tripping the knock sensor. Essentially right on the hairy edge of detonation is where you want to be.

zerocover

You guys seem to be very up on dyno's. They are generally misleading and way too expensive to win an argument on an internet forum. Dynos are misleading because people only look at peak numbers, if power has dropped off in the bottom end the car could be slower as a whole.

I recomend 1/4 mile runs to gauge performance upgrades, trap speed is a great indicator of hp. And you can do many runs for dirt cheap. If the 1/4 mile time drops, at all, then you have an avg gain, which is what you really want.

If op checks avg fuel consumption he can see if the car is running more efficiently. If it is then its making more power (due to less pumping losses, more timing making the combustion more efficent, and a better A/f curve).

johnand

Fair enough. By dyno, I was referring more to a measure of A/F mixture than peak power. The method's you pointed out would work as well.

W203E35

A dyno will tell you how your car is running from beginning to end. Friend of mine had boltons on his Camaro and on a dyno they were able to tell during mid range his car was running too lean. That was taken care of a dyno. By dyno we don't mean only power but Fuel to Air as well.

John, in no way am I questioning your earlier post with this comment (you know 100 times more than me) I'm just curious. Won't the computer just adjust thus having the same effect as mapping it to 93?

zerocover

If you want an A/F reading just get a scantool, and data log the output from the 02 sensor. Rumour has it modern mercedes's come with wideband o2 sensors stock (not sure about the m272 but I can hope so) A graph of that vs rpm is easy enough without a dyno.

More importantly wont the car make the A/f to whatever is preprogramed into the ecu, through a feedback loop. I very much doubt that we'll be able to see noticable lean or rich spots, more then likely its giong to be lean or rich by the same amount across all rpms. It would be nice to see what that setting does though.

W203E35

Interesting..Great info So instead of strapping it onto a dyno you would just go for a test drive?

johnand

IMO, no it won't adjust, for the simple fact, that the ECM can't detect octane rating directly. But, the data from the knock sensor can tell the ECM that the octane is LOWER than the base timing map, not higher. Essentially the octane setting in STAR is selecting the appropriate timing map per octane number to default too.

Here I'll try to explain it better. So, say we set the octane setting in STAR to 89. You fill up with 89 octane and the car runs fine, and the knock sensor never detects knock, so the ECM continues to run timing at the 89 octane map. Then you fill up with 93 octane fuel on the next fillup. Since the ECM can't detect the increased octane, it continues running at the default 89 octane map. Even though the ECM could switch to the 93 map and run without tripping the knock sensor, it won't because the default map is 89 octane. So, then you decide to fill up with 87 octane on the next fillup. The car will run, but will start to detect knock, so it will temporarily retard timing to prevent more knock. After a VERY short time, the ECM will re-advance the timing to the 89 octane map. If it still continues to detect knock, it will default to an even lower octane map for longer period of time before retrying to run the default 89 octane map.

I am sure you had to have read an article or heard a news story in the last 10 years about how running premium in a car designed for regular was a waste of money and of no benefit whatsoever? That reason is simple, like I pointed out earlier, the ECM CAN'T detect octane directly, and can't detect HIGHER octane indirectly.

So, that is why, IMO the octane setting can SLIGHTLY improve performance if you never run octane LOWER than the setting.

johnand

Good point. I am sure that data is available to anyone that has a STAR system. Hint..Hint

Agreed as well, that is why I am confused about what that setting will accomplish if anything. Guess, I need to hook up STAR, play with the settings, and see the output from the O2 sensor

W203E35

Again i'm not questioning you John just a question.

Realistically speaking how much performance gains will be seen between 91 and 93?

Will there be any HP gain or it's more of a better response gain?

johnand

You should get both a HP gain and better throttle response, albeit minor. Usually a couple of HP. I have no idea how much more advance they add from 91 to 93, but it should be easy to find out via STAR. It is very engine dependent, some gain more than others. Typically the higher the compression the better the gain from timing advances. Being the 2.5L M272 has particularly high compression (11.2:1), it may respond well.

timmynabenz

I'm curious on this now too

W203E35

Interesting, you guys have higher compression than us 3.5 guys. We have 10.7:1. I'm still wondering what caused the 1 extra psi in boost.

This "tuning" really has no HP gains. I do agree the OP would feel HP from the Kleemann header but not the "tune". I was reading an article and it explained how people think higher octane rating means more hp but this is not the case. That higher octane causes less knock and when an engine get's knock the knock sensors adjust the timing causing a minimal loss in HP.

I believe with a real ECU tune a tuner has more control of a car. If anyone can tune a car with Mercedes Star (SDS) it's John . If he can't do it no one can.