E85
#26
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This is supposed to be a global forum
I certainly accept that 98% of membership is probably American
I certainly accept that 98% of membership is probably American
#27
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2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
I'm going to have to say that this is probably all in your mind. Unless an engine is designed to run on high octane fuel, ie: extreme boost or high compression, its not going to give any more power. You can get a little more power by advancing the timing, but the ECU will not advance more than what it is set for running on 93 octane.
Now, if you are running in extreme heat, to the point where you are getting detonation on regular 93 octane, E85 will restore the power lost. However, the one thing that could actually add power is the fact that E85 uses so much more fuel, it actually cools the intake air a little bit, but I doubt its noticeable on a NA car. It would be more noticeable on a FI car, kind of like methanol/water injection.
Now that E85 is available on LI, I tried to convince my dad to set up the Cobra to run on E85. The only thing we would have to change is the carb (more CFMs) and a smaller pulley on the supercharger, as we have a fuel pump designed for 2000hp, and we just changed the fuel lines to a bigger SS lines for more fuel, as we maxed out the original fuel lines! Even though the extra power would be useless, its cool for the bragging rights.
Now, if you are running in extreme heat, to the point where you are getting detonation on regular 93 octane, E85 will restore the power lost. However, the one thing that could actually add power is the fact that E85 uses so much more fuel, it actually cools the intake air a little bit, but I doubt its noticeable on a NA car. It would be more noticeable on a FI car, kind of like methanol/water injection.
Now that E85 is available on LI, I tried to convince my dad to set up the Cobra to run on E85. The only thing we would have to change is the carb (more CFMs) and a smaller pulley on the supercharger, as we have a fuel pump designed for 2000hp, and we just changed the fuel lines to a bigger SS lines for more fuel, as we maxed out the original fuel lines! Even though the extra power would be useless, its cool for the bragging rights.
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2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
My 2004 MY C240 is Flex Fuel compliant right out of the box. No set-up or special preparation needed, short of a few recomendations on fuel levels, running the engine for at least five mins after switching, etc when switching from gas to E85. Not sure if all Benz engines carry the FFV rating or not for the 04 MY, but the mighty 2.6L V6 does.
#30
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Benz have not been consistent in this regard in my experience. Some have broad maps & depend on the O2 sensors & knock sensors to correct timing & AF ratio etc. Some have switchable maps with Star. I like this approach because the map is optimised.
However - from a Benz perspective I think they would like a Flex fuel car to be just that. Put a broad range of fuels in the tank & it will run on them without issue. This I fully understand.
However - from a Benz perspective I think they would like a Flex fuel car to be just that. Put a broad range of fuels in the tank & it will run on them without issue. This I fully understand.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 07-27-2010 at 01:11 PM.
#31
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my car states i can use either premium or e85 so i found a gas station around me and filled her up! just like what john says.. gas mileage is not as good but my car does feel much better! and i do feel gains as well
it was kind of a far drive (well not really 10 miles away from home) it was kinda of fun to try something different!
wish there were more gas stations with e85 =( it is soo much CHEAPER!!!
i should've took more photo's but yeah it was 2.69 a gallon!
it was kind of a far drive (well not really 10 miles away from home) it was kinda of fun to try something different!
wish there were more gas stations with e85 =( it is soo much CHEAPER!!!
i should've took more photo's but yeah it was 2.69 a gallon!
#32
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my car states i can use either premium or e85 so i found a gas station around me and filled her up! just like what john says.. gas mileage is not as good but my car does feel much better! and i do feel gains as well
it was kind of a far drive (well not really 10 miles away from home) it was kinda of fun to try something different!
wish there were more gas stations with e85 =( it is soo much CHEAPER!!!
i should've took more photo's but yeah it was 2.69 a gallon!
it was kind of a far drive (well not really 10 miles away from home) it was kinda of fun to try something different!
wish there were more gas stations with e85 =( it is soo much CHEAPER!!!
i should've took more photo's but yeah it was 2.69 a gallon!
#33
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I don't think that is the case for my car in particular. There is settings in STAR for gas and E85. I am not 100% positive, maybe Glyn can comment, but I believe their are separate maps for gas and E85. I would love to dyno to prove it, but I definitely feel a difference. Also, I keep extensive records of every tank of fuel I have used since day 1, and the car can obviously adjust for E85, as E85 has 30% less BTU's than gas, but my average difference between E85 and gas is 21% less on E85.
I've been bouncing between E85 and premium for two reasons:
1) I'd like to think the properties of E85 and it's volitility might actually have some cleaning benefit to the fuel system and it's parts
2) When the price scale tips in favor of E85, I find it a great opportunity to be frugal and the above comment.
3) There is a definite increase in seat-of-the-pants throttle response and low end torque when I use E85 over premium. I just dislike getting under 270 miles per tank.
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my car states i can use either premium or e85 so i found a gas station around me and filled her up! just like what john says.. gas mileage is not as good but my car does feel much better! and i do feel gains as well
it was kind of a far drive (well not really 10 miles away from home) it was kinda of fun to try something different!
wish there were more gas stations with e85 =( it is soo much CHEAPER!!!
i should've took more photo's but yeah it was 2.69 a gallon!
it was kind of a far drive (well not really 10 miles away from home) it was kinda of fun to try something different!
wish there were more gas stations with e85 =( it is soo much CHEAPER!!!
i should've took more photo's but yeah it was 2.69 a gallon!
#36
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2013 ML350
I live in NW Portland, but work is in SE, so 82 and JC is not too far. Are you in Portland ?
#37
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John, just a few times. I ran about 2 tanks last year. I too was about 20% less on fuel economy. At the time the price diff in fuel cost vs. MPG was roughly a wash. At ~2.23 per gallon it is somthing i may consider again however.
I live in NW Portland, but work is in SE, so 82 and JC is not too far. Are you in Portland ?
I live in NW Portland, but work is in SE, so 82 and JC is not too far. Are you in Portland ?
#38
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'05 C230SS 6MT, 1966 Triumph TR4a IRS, Shelby Cobra 427 Supercharged
I don't think that is the case for my car in particular. There is settings in STAR for gas and E85. I am not 100% positive, maybe Glyn can comment, but I believe their are separate maps for gas and E85. I would love to dyno to prove it, but I definitely feel a difference. Also, I keep extensive records of every tank of fuel I have used since day 1, and the car can obviously adjust for E85, as E85 has 30% less BTU's than gas, but my average difference between E85 and gas is 21% less on E85.
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1999 CLK320 (sold), 2007 C230 SS (gone), 2000 Grand Marquis, 2011 CR-Z, stay tuned...
I WANT E85! I've been trying to find it, but the only time I came across it was driving through Atlanta... and I'd just filled up! I'm heading up to Atlanta tomorrow, though, so I will try to seek out E85!
#43
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If all goes well I'll be meeting up with Drew on Sunday. I won't, however, be filling up with E85. I don't think my car would appreciate that at all.
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There appears to be many E85 stations in FL. Not sure if any of those are close to you.
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Well, I know the car can adjust! It has to! But what most likely happens is that when using E85, the car will initially run on the gas maps and the O2 sensors will determine that it is running too lean, so it will enrich the fuel mixture. Once it reaches a certain threshold, it will switch over to the E85 maps. It can do this because there is a huge difference in the proper AFR for the two fuels that it won't be mistaken. But I just don't see getting extra power over gas from E85 as the engine is not optimized for E85. All you really have is that timing can be advanced, and the cooling effect, and I don't know if that can really account for an increase in performance. If it did, wouldn't you think all the auto mags would be using E85 for testing for better numbers? I could be wrong, but I think its all in your head.
#46
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Earth shattering differences I don't buy but an increased peppiness out of the engine on E85 is possible. The camshaft arrangement on the 2.5l M272 is excellent & it has an 11.4 to 1 compression ratio. It breathes well & has good volumetric efficiency. With tuning it should show some benefit on E85 - albeit not optimised.
Power output of an engine as relates to fuel is mainly driven by fuel density & fuel volume that can be completely combusted by that engine. Octane rating per se has nothing to do with power output - it is purely a rating of resistance to knock of a fuel, however it does allow higher compression ratios & more advanced timing.
In the case of the baby M272 the standard base line tuning map is very conservative so that it can run on crap fuel without any danger to the engine. It is not tuned for maximum power output.
When running on the oxygenated fuels map, pumping in more fuel at corrected AFR & advanced timing (which would be dangerous on the standard map with crap fuel) it could well show some meaningful benefits in responsiveness & increased power output. I believe one could feel this in normal driving because the basic profile of the engine is actually quite good for alcohols - high CR, capable of injecting & combusting sufficient fuel, capable of timing advancement & good breathing. Breathing is less of an issue with alcohols because of the oxygen molecule in the fuel, but when you are pumping in a whole lot more fuel you still need enough air for roughly 9 to 1 AF ratio.
I don't think that John is trying to make unrealistic claims here or that the engine is "perfectly" optimised for E85. As a flex fuel car it is certainly capable of making better use of alcohols than any "standard" vehicle with narrow tuning parameters.
We can go into cooling effects & what that does for max air density/cylinder filling & flame front propogation with alcohols etc. but the basics above make John's reasonable claims likely.
Power output of an engine as relates to fuel is mainly driven by fuel density & fuel volume that can be completely combusted by that engine. Octane rating per se has nothing to do with power output - it is purely a rating of resistance to knock of a fuel, however it does allow higher compression ratios & more advanced timing.
In the case of the baby M272 the standard base line tuning map is very conservative so that it can run on crap fuel without any danger to the engine. It is not tuned for maximum power output.
When running on the oxygenated fuels map, pumping in more fuel at corrected AFR & advanced timing (which would be dangerous on the standard map with crap fuel) it could well show some meaningful benefits in responsiveness & increased power output. I believe one could feel this in normal driving because the basic profile of the engine is actually quite good for alcohols - high CR, capable of injecting & combusting sufficient fuel, capable of timing advancement & good breathing. Breathing is less of an issue with alcohols because of the oxygen molecule in the fuel, but when you are pumping in a whole lot more fuel you still need enough air for roughly 9 to 1 AF ratio.
I don't think that John is trying to make unrealistic claims here or that the engine is "perfectly" optimised for E85. As a flex fuel car it is certainly capable of making better use of alcohols than any "standard" vehicle with narrow tuning parameters.
We can go into cooling effects & what that does for max air density/cylinder filling & flame front propogation with alcohols etc. but the basics above make John's reasonable claims likely.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 07-28-2010 at 09:45 AM.
#47
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Earth shattering differences I don't buy but an increased peppiness out of the engine on E85 is possible. The camshaft arrangement on the 2.5l M272 is excellent & it has an 11.4 to 1 compression ratio. It breathes well & has good volumetric efficiency. With tuning it should show some benefit on E85 - albeit not optimised.
Power output of an engine as relates to fuel is mainly driven by fuel density & fuel volume that can be completely combusted by that engine. Octane rating per se has nothing to do with power output - it is purely a rating of resistance to knock of a fuel, however it does allow higher compression ratios & more advanced timing.
In the case of the baby M272 the standard base line tuning map is very conservative so that it can run on crap fuel without any danger to the engine. It is not tuned for maximum power output.
When running on the oxygenated fuels map, pumping in more fuel at corrected AFR & advanced timing (which would be dangerous on the standard map with crap fuel) it could well show some meaningful benefits in responsiveness & increased power output. I believe one could feel this in normal driving because the basic profile of the engine is actually quite good for alcohols - high CR, capable of injecting & combusting sufficient fuel, capable of timing advancement & good breathing. Breathing is less of an issue with alcohols because of the oxygen molecule in the fuel, but when you are pumping in a whole lot more fuel you still need enough air for roughly 9 to 1 AF ratio.
I don't think that John is trying to make unrealistic claims here or that the engine is "perfectly" optimised for E85. As a flex fuel car it is certainly capable of making better use of alcohols than any "standard" vehicle with narrow tuning parameters.
We can go into cooling effects & what that does for max air density/cylinder filling & flame front propogation with alcohols etc. but the basics above make John's reasonable claims likely.
Power output of an engine as relates to fuel is mainly driven by fuel density & fuel volume that can be completely combusted by that engine. Octane rating per se has nothing to do with power output - it is purely a rating of resistance to knock of a fuel, however it does allow higher compression ratios & more advanced timing.
In the case of the baby M272 the standard base line tuning map is very conservative so that it can run on crap fuel without any danger to the engine. It is not tuned for maximum power output.
When running on the oxygenated fuels map, pumping in more fuel at corrected AFR & advanced timing (which would be dangerous on the standard map with crap fuel) it could well show some meaningful benefits in responsiveness & increased power output. I believe one could feel this in normal driving because the basic profile of the engine is actually quite good for alcohols - high CR, capable of injecting & combusting sufficient fuel, capable of timing advancement & good breathing. Breathing is less of an issue with alcohols because of the oxygen molecule in the fuel, but when you are pumping in a whole lot more fuel you still need enough air for roughly 9 to 1 AF ratio.
I don't think that John is trying to make unrealistic claims here or that the engine is "perfectly" optimised for E85. As a flex fuel car it is certainly capable of making better use of alcohols than any "standard" vehicle with narrow tuning parameters.
We can go into cooling effects & what that does for max air density/cylinder filling & flame front propogation with alcohols etc. but the basics above make John's reasonable claims likely.
I have been researching some tuners as of late, and trying to get one willing to tune the engine for premium AND E85. I think there quite a bit of room for improvement as far as power and economy on E85. As, you pointed out, MB never bothered optimizing E85 maps because, frankly, the percentage of owners running E85 is REALLY low, so it wasn't worth it. That is why sometimes I have some minor drive-ability issues on E85.
Honestly for me personally, the driving force in me using E85 is pure economics, and nothing else.
#48
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2007 W203 SS
Earth shattering differences I don't buy but an increased peppiness out of the engine on E85 is possible. The camshaft arrangement on the 2.5l M272 is excellent & it has an 11.4 to 1 compression ratio. It breathes well & has good volumetric efficiency. With tuning it should show some benefit on E85 - albeit not optimised.
Power output of an engine as relates to fuel is mainly driven by fuel density & fuel volume that can be completely combusted by that engine. Octane rating per se has nothing to do with power output - it is purely a rating of resistance to knock of a fuel, however it does allow higher compression ratios & more advanced timing.
In the case of the baby M272 the standard base line tuning map is very conservative so that it can run on crap fuel without any danger to the engine. It is not tuned for maximum power output.
When running on the oxygenated fuels map, pumping in more fuel at corrected AFR & advanced timing (which would be dangerous on the standard map with crap fuel) it could well show some meaningful benefits in responsiveness & increased power output. I believe one could feel this in normal driving because the basic profile of the engine is actually quite good for alcohols - high CR, capable of injecting & combusting sufficient fuel, capable of timing advancement & good breathing. Breathing is less of an issue with alcohols because of the oxygen molecule in the fuel, but when you are pumping in a whole lot more fuel you still need enough air for roughly 9 to 1 AF ratio.
I don't think that John is trying to make unrealistic claims here or that the engine is "perfectly" optimised for E85. As a flex fuel car it is certainly capable of making better use of alcohols than any "standard" vehicle with narrow tuning parameters.
We can go into cooling effects & what that does for max air density/cylinder filling & flame front propogation with alcohols etc. but the basics above make John's reasonable claims likely.
Power output of an engine as relates to fuel is mainly driven by fuel density & fuel volume that can be completely combusted by that engine. Octane rating per se has nothing to do with power output - it is purely a rating of resistance to knock of a fuel, however it does allow higher compression ratios & more advanced timing.
In the case of the baby M272 the standard base line tuning map is very conservative so that it can run on crap fuel without any danger to the engine. It is not tuned for maximum power output.
When running on the oxygenated fuels map, pumping in more fuel at corrected AFR & advanced timing (which would be dangerous on the standard map with crap fuel) it could well show some meaningful benefits in responsiveness & increased power output. I believe one could feel this in normal driving because the basic profile of the engine is actually quite good for alcohols - high CR, capable of injecting & combusting sufficient fuel, capable of timing advancement & good breathing. Breathing is less of an issue with alcohols because of the oxygen molecule in the fuel, but when you are pumping in a whole lot more fuel you still need enough air for roughly 9 to 1 AF ratio.
I don't think that John is trying to make unrealistic claims here or that the engine is "perfectly" optimised for E85. As a flex fuel car it is certainly capable of making better use of alcohols than any "standard" vehicle with narrow tuning parameters.
We can go into cooling effects & what that does for max air density/cylinder filling & flame front propogation with alcohols etc. but the basics above make John's reasonable claims likely.
In short, my findings through trial and error:
1) 89 Octane (aka "Cheap Hooch")
PRO: Good gas mileage, decent price
CON: Lowered performance & Risk of detonation in warmer weather or spirited driving
2) 92+ Octane (aka "Top Shelf Libation")
PRO: Normal performance, greatest gas mileage and no detonation.
CON: Highest gas price
3) E85 - (aka "Grain Alcohol/Moonshine")
PRO: Highest performance, no detonation & best price
CON: Decreased gas mileage and due to the lower energy rating (E85 < 92+), it can be a wash based on pricing.
#49
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Yep! - I'm surprised you actually detected pinging, knock, detonation, pre ignition by whatever name you know it. It must have been real "cheap hooch". High speed knock is the most dangerous for an engine & difficult to detect (by hearing not sensors)
Benz use amazingly good knock sensors & will retard the timing in a flash at the onset of knock. This is why the Diesotto works.
Benz use amazingly good knock sensors & will retard the timing in a flash at the onset of knock. This is why the Diesotto works.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 07-28-2010 at 11:32 AM.
#50
Super Moderator
Thanks Glyn, you are right absolutely right, it is far from an earth shattering difference and I have never claimed that. It is a subtle increase in throttle response and eagerness to rev.
I have been researching some tuners as of late, and trying to get one willing to tune the engine for premium AND E85. I think there quite a bit of room for improvement as far as power and economy on E85. As, you pointed out, MB never bothered optimizing E85 maps because, frankly, the percentage of owners running E85 is REALLY low, so it wasn't worth it. That is why sometimes I have some minor drive-ability issues on E85.
Honestly for me personally, the driving force in me using E85 is pure economics, and nothing else.
I have been researching some tuners as of late, and trying to get one willing to tune the engine for premium AND E85. I think there quite a bit of room for improvement as far as power and economy on E85. As, you pointed out, MB never bothered optimizing E85 maps because, frankly, the percentage of owners running E85 is REALLY low, so it wasn't worth it. That is why sometimes I have some minor drive-ability issues on E85.
Honestly for me personally, the driving force in me using E85 is pure economics, and nothing else.
When it comes to the odd drive-ability issue - I'm not surprised & the E85 might be a little variable. I'm sure these drive-ability issues are nowhere near what the Brazilians tolerate with their mainly hydrous alcohols with real crap distillation curves.