mbr129

Right now I drive a 1990 190E 2.6. I am doing European Delivery on a 2003 BMW 330i with the new performance package in a few weeks. I plan on keeping my 190E as a car my fiancee can drive or that I can take when the weather is really crappy (it's great in the snow with Blizzaks).

I don't expect, however, the 190E to be in great shape forever. So in 2-3 years we (wife and I) will buy a small wagon to use in trips, bad weather, and to haul stuff when the 330i is too small. For that reason I want a wagon with AWD and an automatic. I want to buy it 2-3 years old, so it would be a new right now.

So here are the contenders

Volvo V70 series (ruled out after driving my parents' new XC last weekend).
Audi A4 Avant 1.8T (ruled out - engine is way too wimpy and car too heavy).
Audi A4 Avant 3.0
MB C240W 4-Matic
MB C320W 4-Matic
BMW 325xiT
VW Passat V6 4-motion

The A4 3.0 worries me because of reliability issues, but it is by far the best bang for the buck. The C240W is a bit on the weak side. The C320W is great but just very expensive. The 325xiT is again a bit in the weak side. The Passat I just haven't driven at all.

So do you guys have any input? Have you driven any of the cars? What do think about cost, reliability, etc. I have been a huge MB fan my whole life and love my 190E (very reliable) but I haven't heard great things lately about MB reliability.

What would you pick given my needs, etc? Just looking for a good car dicussion.

gab

just get a used WRX wagon in 2 years time, it will be very cheap and affordable

or consider the new A3

mbr129

Those two are a bit TOO compact. I just didn't want people to start suggesting the E320, A6, or 5-series wagons. Plus it needs to be a bit mroe refined than a WRX. My wife will drive it most of the time.

Kal Rubinson

Well, you are certainly starting early and things may change by the time you need to act. We leased a new C320wagon (pre-4motion) for its combination of utility and driveability. The VW was more spacious but a bit stolid on the road (even with all the bells and whistles). The A4 3.0 was the closest alternative and there was no signficant difference in price. The BMW was appealing but was not in the running since there were none available in our purchase window.

Overall, we are very pleased with the C320 and our only complaint/repair over the past 9mos. has been a sagging luggage compartment cover. If I had it to do over (and I will in 2-3 years), I would probably make the same decision although I'd consider the 4motion option.

Biggest disappointment: Lack of CD player but I've corrected that.

mbr129

Thanks! That is definitelly good to hear. Just wanted to ehar opinions, that is all. I rather start figuring out things now because now that they are new, they are available at dealerships, etc.

The C320 adds more money when 4-motion is selected which make sthe difference with the A4 significant. Otherwise, it would be a no brainer.

gab

big enough unless you are hauling mother in laws in the back seat

gab

you could get a Audi All-Road for cheap in 2 years

good power, classy, spacious

young

have you sat in the back seats of those cars yet? i found the a4 to be almost useless for adults. we actually looked at the a6 wagon b/c of that.

ended up w/ the 325xiT. overall, we're pleased w/ it but i wish it was a bit zippier. our dealership's service dept is run by poopoo heads compared to the mb dealership.

KWiK

if you look hard, you can find a C240 wagon now for just under $30K. Why wait?

bzcat

A4 back seat is on the small side... I have one and I wouldn't want to sit back there for very long time. If you want more space, try A6 or AllRoad. As far as Audi reliablity goes... it's not much worst than MB reliability or BMW reliability so it's a non-issue (coil pack is over and resolved). Alternatively, VW Passat is in between A4 and A6 in size so maybe that's what you want. One advantage Audi has over the other is the full warranty/maintenace for 4 years (only thing not covered are 5 tires) and of course A4 is fully loaded compare to MB or BMW (standard 6 disk, power seat, leather etc).

Also check out the new Mazda6 wagon. 3.0 V6 220 hp available 5 speed MTX or ATX but no AWD option yet.

czachari

Auto will probably suck. I test drove the stick and it was quick. Rumour has it that the 04's will have even more HP ( currently 170, 04s will probably get closer to 200 ). My wife has a 99 A4 2.8 Quattro Tiptronic and it has been trouble-free ( oops I said the jinx word ).

CZ

mbr129

I'll try to reply to the various points in one post.

The reason why I am not getting one now is because my 190E is in great shape, I just bought a loaded 330i, and I simply don't need it right now. Iam gettign married next year and will have kids (hopefully) a couple of years after that. That's when I'll need it.

As far as I know, MB, Audi, and BMW offer the same warranty/service periods with the same coverage. No doubt the A4 is the best buy if you assume reliability is about the same for all.

I know there are other options (bigger size or cheaper price, etc) but I wanted to know your opinions within the group mentioned and assuming it has to have auto and AWD.

Thanks!

young

not quite. bmw includes some additional stuff under their warranty. i live in a very hilly area and my brakes wore faster than normal. it was covered. i was told by my dealership that pretty much everything is covered from low windshield wiper fluid to coolant. i don't think mb would have replaced those for free. still, i think my mb dealership is a much nicer service department.

also, i think roadside service is different. mb has a lifetime roadside policy but i think you pay for some services.

i don't know what the audi policies are.

bzcat

Audi also covers brake pads AND rotors which is not covered by MB or BMW. Audi warranty also includes windshield wipers

A4 AWD auto only come with Tiptronic which is relatively slow. A4 FWD auto come with CVT which is much faster.

The 1.8T for 2003 has 170 hp. For 2004 it will have 190 hp and 6 speed manual instead of 5 speed, and tiptronic (Quattro) and CVT (FWD) options.

young

bmw covers the rotors also. and i think the windshield wipers are part of service B for MB. and i've read several people who just got them replaced by complaining that they were crappy. maybe that's dealer dependent.

Avrex

Currently own a 2002 320C Wagon and a 1994 BMW 530T Wagon. The MB has been a great trouble free car with superb handling and more than adequate interior room. The BMW is a nice design, but as it has aged has been a maintenance nightmare. Far too many fragile bits all of which very expensive to replace repair. (heating/cooling system was engineered by commitee and the double acting sunroof is a complete money sink)Looked at the A4, but back seat comfort and overall design were negatives compared to the MB. Have no exp. with the AWD, but unless the vehicle is operated reqularly in marginal driving conditions, I'm not sure the addtional complexity and cost is worth it. Depending on your needs, I would look downstream at a 320 coming off lease and into the Starmark Program. You should get a good vehicle for fair market price.

mbr129

I did some more research this weekend, and I decided to narrow down the choices to the A4 3.0 Avant, the C320W 4-matic and the 325xiT all with an auto.

As I mentioned, the AWD and auto transmission are requirements, not up for discussion. I have my reasons and it's too long to explain. But the decision has been made between my wife and I that the wagon we get will be auto and AWD. Period. She also wants teh wagon to have some luxury, since my new 330i is optioned to be sporty, not luxurious (alcantara seats, 6-speed, 18"wheels, performance suspension, etc)

It's pretty evident that the C320 is the better wagon. Best engine, most features, most luxury, very roomy, good looks. It's also very expensive. About 4-5K more than the other two.

The BMW is good looking, sporty, and cheaper, but the engine is just very weak. Particularly in torque (which is what I care about for its applciation) with 175lb-ft, vs 221 for MB and Audi. It's just too weak for it's weight.

The Audi is by far the bargain of the group. Very well equipped and with a good engine it costs as much as the BMW. It even includes a standard 6-CD changer. But we don't like the interior, it is not as comfort oriented as the Benz, and for all it's equipment, it is still not as well-equipped as the Benz, nor as luxurious.

So, since we will buy the wagon used, it seems the target will be to find a C320W 4-matic in good condition. Unless the Audi shows equal reliability and a significantly lower price, in which case we may be persuaded.

Avrex

Good Luck! Whatever your final choice, you should be able to find a nice ride coming off lease or direct trade.

zimmer26

I never thought I'd have any interest in this subject, but a certain vehicle at the auto show opened my mind to this practical class of cars. The 2004 Subaru Forester XT (the T stands for turbo.) The specs are rather impressive as is the much improved and refined interior. Apparently it will share much of the same technology that will be found in the STi, but it will boast a more earthly 210hp @5600 but more impressive 235lb/ft torque @3600. Curb weight with the manual should be decently light for the class @3250. I wasn't able to find EPA mileage estimates but I'd expect about 20/27 (nothing stellar.) I couldn't find anything on performance numbers until I found the Canadian site that stated 0-60 in 6.1 with the 5sp manual and that is not a typo! Nothing firm on pricing though but well under 30 should be a lock. And yes, you could get the WRX wagon for less I'd imagine, but the Forester will be standard with literally a ton more creature comforts(check em out), space and civility. I don't know if they tweaked anything on the suspension for the XT, so the one hesitation is will the handling be up the added power which I'm really not sure (but actaully never rode in one so I have nothing to go on there.) Anyway, something to consider on the low cost option route I'd say.

Mike T.

N9TE Turbo engine, good for 180 HP, BIG lusty torque, 0-100 km/h in maybe 7.5 s, top end of 220 km/h+ if it's tuned right. Get one in the SW8 configuration and it seats eight plus still has luggage space left over. Carrying capacity of a small bus, plus can carry 800 kg load. Classic Pininfarina styling. What more could you want?

Oh, it's 12+ years old, never mind Not trendy enough - or politically correct on this Board

MR325iT

OK, here's my choice

http://www.audiworld.com/news/02/new_s4/2003s4004.jpg

Much as I love my 325 wagon, adding AWD and an automatic would suck all the fun out of this particular car (the 330Xi wagon would be great, if only BMWNA would sell it here). If you really require AWD, I think the Audi is a great choice, though like the BMW it is somewhat smaller than you might expect. MB would also be a good choice (in the C320). Either way, I think all the current small euro-wagons are cool - hard to go wrong, so have some fun test drives and make the call.

Matt230K

Mike T., I saw a Peugeot 505 Turbo parked on the street today, but it wasn't a wagon. It's very rare to see a Peugeot around here. They had a sticker in the back window, something about "If you think my car is ugly, look at yours" or something like that, but I think it was a Citroen sticker. It had those two ^ symbols on it. That's Citroen, right?