Group Buy: C32 Brake Upgrade
05-22-2003, 08:10 PM
#29
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Thread Starter
I'm looking into it, but currently stainless steel lines are not factored into the pricing. As soon as I have pricing, I will offer a regular price as well as a special price for the group buy members.
Thanks,
Ben
Thanks,
Ben
05-22-2003, 09:00 PM
#31
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your tire analogy is incorrect. if a stret tire can provide more traction then the brakes can handle then why can you lock up the wheels. you can lock up the wheels because you exceed the resistance of the tire on the road. the only way to overcome this is to add more friction/ contact area to the road which means a bigger tire that exceedes the brake capacity. also every tire has a different coefficient of drag and each road surface also changes this. 50 feet of your highway may have one set of drag figures, when the next 50 feet may have a completley different set of drag figures. so to say that the brakes alone will decrease stopping distance is not true, it is a balance between the calipers (clamping force) the rotor design (vented or not) and the main factor, tire design and function. the brakes may decrease stopping distance with one type of tire, and it may double wth a different brand so the main factor here is the tires. also i have never exceeded the stock brakes on any vehicle and probably never will. i am a police officer and have been in many pursuit, and not even the crown vics brakes have ever come close to failure. many police departments have a mandate or order on replacement parts, one of the parts that they mandate be oem is the tires, hmm i wonder why?
05-22-2003, 09:32 PM
#32
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Ben,
Will this fit on the W208 CLK430? I know there is a discussion in the W208 forum as a member has already done the install.
Secondly, will you (evosport) install it on a W208? and what is the installation charge?
Will this fit on the W208 CLK430? I know there is a discussion in the W208 forum as a member has already done the install.
Secondly, will you (evosport) install it on a W208? and what is the installation charge?
05-22-2003, 09:36 PM
#33
MBWorld Fanatic!
While you are correct in general, that the stock brakes can apply enough force to lock the tires, this is not the whole story.
First, as the brakes heat up, their efficiency is reduced. By going to a larger rotor/caliper, you increase the amount of heat that the system can absorb before a noticable decrease in braking performance. Keep in mind that airflow over & through the brake system is continually taking heat away, but the larger the system, the bigger the 'reserve' available for hard, high-speed braking.
Second, in order to generate enough braking force to lock the tires, a small caliper/pad requires a high application pressure. Once the tire locks, you have to release brake pressure in order to allow the tire to roll again. The amount of pressure difference between pressure at lock up and pressure at release is the 'hysteresis' of the braking system. With the small caliper/pad, this hysteresis is very high, meaning that the ABS has to drastically reduce brake pressure to the caliper, and then drastically reapply pressure once the tire starts turning again.
In contrast, a larger caliper/pad combination can apply the same braking force at a much lower braking pressure. The hysteresis of the brake system is also lower, meaning that the ABS has to reduce the pressure less in order to allow the tire to rotate again.
On non-ABS vehicles, you will find that braking pressure is much easier to modulate on large-brake systems, than on stock systems. This is for the same reason, the difference in pressure required to lock/unlock the tires is greatly reduced.
It is the combination of these two reasons that most sedan racers in World Challenge, etc. go to upgraded brakes.
For the street, there is also the third advantage of big brakes over stock: They look great!
First, as the brakes heat up, their efficiency is reduced. By going to a larger rotor/caliper, you increase the amount of heat that the system can absorb before a noticable decrease in braking performance. Keep in mind that airflow over & through the brake system is continually taking heat away, but the larger the system, the bigger the 'reserve' available for hard, high-speed braking.
Second, in order to generate enough braking force to lock the tires, a small caliper/pad requires a high application pressure. Once the tire locks, you have to release brake pressure in order to allow the tire to roll again. The amount of pressure difference between pressure at lock up and pressure at release is the 'hysteresis' of the braking system. With the small caliper/pad, this hysteresis is very high, meaning that the ABS has to drastically reduce brake pressure to the caliper, and then drastically reapply pressure once the tire starts turning again.
In contrast, a larger caliper/pad combination can apply the same braking force at a much lower braking pressure. The hysteresis of the brake system is also lower, meaning that the ABS has to reduce the pressure less in order to allow the tire to rotate again.
On non-ABS vehicles, you will find that braking pressure is much easier to modulate on large-brake systems, than on stock systems. This is for the same reason, the difference in pressure required to lock/unlock the tires is greatly reduced.
It is the combination of these two reasons that most sedan racers in World Challenge, etc. go to upgraded brakes.
For the street, there is also the third advantage of big brakes over stock: They look great!
05-22-2003, 09:43 PM
#34
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ones too fast according to CHP!
your tire analogy is incorrect. if a stret tire can provide more traction then the brakes can handle then why can you lock up the wheels. you can lock up the wheels because you exceed the resistance of the tire on the road.
the only way to overcome this is to add more friction/ contact area to the road which means a bigger tire that exceedes the brake capacity."
so to say that the brakes alone will decrease stopping distance is not true, it is a balance between the calipers (clamping force) the rotor design (vented or not) and the main factor, tire design and function
Of course there are multiple factors, but given the same car, the same pad compound, the same rotor design, a larger caliper will stop the car shorter EVERY TIME.
Also, vented or non-vented has nothing to do with stopping distance over one stop. It only impacts fade resistance and multiple stopping effectiveness.
the brakes may decrease stopping distance with one type of tire, and it may double wth a different brand so the main factor here is the tires
also i have never exceeded the stock brakes on any vehicle and probably never will. i am a police officer and have been in many pursuit, and not even the crown vics brakes have ever come close to failure. many police departments have a mandate or order on replacement parts, one of the parts that they mandate be oem is the tires, hmm i wonder why?
You also totally avoided my comparison to SPEED world challenge. Why is that?
Thanks
Brad
05-22-2003, 09:46 PM
#35
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ones too fast according to CHP!
Originally posted by dmatre
While you are correct in general, that the stock brakes can apply enough force to lock the tires, this is not the whole story.
First, as the brakes heat up, their efficiency is reduced. By going to a larger rotor/caliper, you increase the amount of heat that the system can absorb before a noticable decrease in braking performance. Keep in mind that airflow over & through the brake system is continually taking heat away, but the larger the system, the bigger the 'reserve' available for hard, high-speed braking.
Second, in order to generate enough braking force to lock the tires, a small caliper/pad requires a high application pressure. Once the tire locks, you have to release brake pressure in order to allow the tire to roll again. The amount of pressure difference between pressure at lock up and pressure at release is the 'hysteresis' of the braking system. With the small caliper/pad, this hysteresis is very high, meaning that the ABS has to drastically reduce brake pressure to the caliper, and then drastically reapply pressure once the tire starts turning again.
In contrast, a larger caliper/pad combination can apply the same braking force at a much lower braking pressure. The hysteresis of the brake system is also lower, meaning that the ABS has to reduce the pressure less in order to allow the tire to rotate again.
On non-ABS vehicles, you will find that braking pressure is much easier to modulate on large-brake systems, than on stock systems. This is for the same reason, the difference in pressure required to lock/unlock the tires is greatly reduced.
It is the combination of these two reasons that most sedan racers in World Challenge, etc. go to upgraded brakes.
For the street, there is also the third advantage of big brakes over stock: They look great!
While you are correct in general, that the stock brakes can apply enough force to lock the tires, this is not the whole story.
First, as the brakes heat up, their efficiency is reduced. By going to a larger rotor/caliper, you increase the amount of heat that the system can absorb before a noticable decrease in braking performance. Keep in mind that airflow over & through the brake system is continually taking heat away, but the larger the system, the bigger the 'reserve' available for hard, high-speed braking.
Second, in order to generate enough braking force to lock the tires, a small caliper/pad requires a high application pressure. Once the tire locks, you have to release brake pressure in order to allow the tire to roll again. The amount of pressure difference between pressure at lock up and pressure at release is the 'hysteresis' of the braking system. With the small caliper/pad, this hysteresis is very high, meaning that the ABS has to drastically reduce brake pressure to the caliper, and then drastically reapply pressure once the tire starts turning again.
In contrast, a larger caliper/pad combination can apply the same braking force at a much lower braking pressure. The hysteresis of the brake system is also lower, meaning that the ABS has to reduce the pressure less in order to allow the tire to rotate again.
On non-ABS vehicles, you will find that braking pressure is much easier to modulate on large-brake systems, than on stock systems. This is for the same reason, the difference in pressure required to lock/unlock the tires is greatly reduced.
It is the combination of these two reasons that most sedan racers in World Challenge, etc. go to upgraded brakes.
For the street, there is also the third advantage of big brakes over stock: They look great!
Thanks
Brad
05-22-2003, 10:28 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
well, that's all great info on the technical issues.
but, i have a feeling that most people who are getting these are doing so for the aesthetic value. not that there's anything wrong w/ that.
but, i have a feeling that most people who are getting these are doing so for the aesthetic value. not that there's anything wrong w/ that.
05-22-2003, 10:42 PM
#37
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Thread Starter
Originally posted by oggle
I'm IN!
Btw, how's the brake dust on the pads you got on the C32 brake upgrade?
I'm IN!
Btw, how's the brake dust on the pads you got on the C32 brake upgrade?
05-22-2003, 10:45 PM
#38
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Thread Starter
Originally posted by superfly_430
Ben,
Will this fit on the W208 CLK430? I know there is a discussion in the W208 forum as a member has already done the install.
Secondly, will you (evosport) install it on a W208? and what is the installation charge?
Ben,
Will this fit on the W208 CLK430? I know there is a discussion in the W208 forum as a member has already done the install.
Secondly, will you (evosport) install it on a W208? and what is the installation charge?
Regards,
Ben
05-23-2003, 01:16 AM
#41
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well without the tire, you cannot stop. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
as for your comment on whether or not im saying that you may have an incresed stopping distance by different tire manufacturer, YES this is what I am saying, and its TRUE. get rid of the tires you have on your car now and go get some wall mart specials, since they are the same thing.
now quit comparing RACE cars to STREET driven mb's. you cannot drive hard enough on the street to outperform the stock braking system. since you cannot use the technique of THRESHOLD BRAKING on an abs car then the big brake upgrade, with more clamping force on the rotor is worthless as the computer controlls your braking.
if you are saying that you outdrive the stock braking system, then you are obviously exceeding the speed limits and or racing on the street. not a wise move promoting street racing, or reckless driving.
lesson
once you exceed the friction of the tire to the road surface, you loose control or have wheel lockup.
without the tire, you dont turn, you dont stop, you dont accelerate.
as for your comment on whether or not im saying that you may have an incresed stopping distance by different tire manufacturer, YES this is what I am saying, and its TRUE. get rid of the tires you have on your car now and go get some wall mart specials, since they are the same thing.
now quit comparing RACE cars to STREET driven mb's. you cannot drive hard enough on the street to outperform the stock braking system. since you cannot use the technique of THRESHOLD BRAKING on an abs car then the big brake upgrade, with more clamping force on the rotor is worthless as the computer controlls your braking.
if you are saying that you outdrive the stock braking system, then you are obviously exceeding the speed limits and or racing on the street. not a wise move promoting street racing, or reckless driving.
lesson
once you exceed the friction of the tire to the road surface, you loose control or have wheel lockup.
without the tire, you dont turn, you dont stop, you dont accelerate.
05-23-2003, 03:32 AM
#43
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Thread Starter
Originally posted by AlBoston
hey ben will this work on my C320 4matic? I know that the calipers are in a different position than all the other C-class models.
hey ben will this work on my C320 4matic? I know that the calipers are in a different position than all the other C-class models.
Hmmm, I am not sure. If the calipers are in a different position, than it most likely won't. Email me at ben@evosport.com, and we'll figure it out.
Thanks,
Ben
05-23-2003, 03:46 AM
#46
Out Of Control!!
Thread Starter
Originally posted by nov0798
well without the tire, you cannot stop. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
as for your comment on whether or not im saying that you may have an incresed stopping distance by different tire manufacturer, YES this is what I am saying, and its TRUE. get rid of the tires you have on your car now and go get some wall mart specials, since they are the same thing.
now quit comparing RACE cars to STREET driven mb's. you cannot drive hard enough on the street to outperform the stock braking system. since you cannot use the technique of THRESHOLD BRAKING on an abs car then the big brake upgrade, with more clamping force on the rotor is worthless as the computer controlls your braking.
if you are saying that you outdrive the stock braking system, then you are obviously exceeding the speed limits and or racing on the street. not a wise move promoting street racing, or reckless driving.
lesson
once you exceed the friction of the tire to the road surface, you loose control or have wheel lockup.
without the tire, you dont turn, you dont stop, you dont accelerate.
well without the tire, you cannot stop. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
as for your comment on whether or not im saying that you may have an incresed stopping distance by different tire manufacturer, YES this is what I am saying, and its TRUE. get rid of the tires you have on your car now and go get some wall mart specials, since they are the same thing.
now quit comparing RACE cars to STREET driven mb's. you cannot drive hard enough on the street to outperform the stock braking system. since you cannot use the technique of THRESHOLD BRAKING on an abs car then the big brake upgrade, with more clamping force on the rotor is worthless as the computer controlls your braking.
if you are saying that you outdrive the stock braking system, then you are obviously exceeding the speed limits and or racing on the street. not a wise move promoting street racing, or reckless driving.
lesson
once you exceed the friction of the tire to the road surface, you loose control or have wheel lockup.
without the tire, you dont turn, you dont stop, you dont accelerate.
How many cars have you had with a Brembo big brake kit installed on them? With that experience, can you honestly say that you did not notice a change? From a moderate 60-0, I consistently lost 10ft off my braking with just the 13.1" street kit.
Let's try looking at this from another perspective. Why does AMG include bigger brakes on the C32 if the C320 brakes are just as strong? Why have several members commented after installing them that the brakes are a great upgrade? My guess is that it is because their experience with the C32 brakes has led them to believe that it is better.
This debate has gone on for a while in this forum. However, I have yet to hear a C32 brake owner disagree with my what Brad or I have said. I guarantee you that on stock tires, comparing the C320 brakes to the C32, the C32 will win every time--on the street or the track.
-Ben
05-23-2003, 03:48 AM
#47
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Thread Starter
Originally posted by intakex
does the price include installation?
does the price include installation?
Thanks,
Ben
05-23-2003, 03:49 AM
#49
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2002 VW GTi 1.8t
Originally posted by nov0798
well without the tire, you cannot stop. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
as for your comment on whether or not im saying that you may have an incresed stopping distance by different tire manufacturer, YES this is what I am saying, and its TRUE. get rid of the tires you have on your car now and go get some wall mart specials, since they are the same thing.
now quit comparing RACE cars to STREET driven mb's. you cannot drive hard enough on the street to outperform the stock braking system. since you cannot use the technique of THRESHOLD BRAKING on an abs car then the big brake upgrade, with more clamping force on the rotor is worthless as the computer controlls your braking.
if you are saying that you outdrive the stock braking system, then you are obviously exceeding the speed limits and or racing on the street. not a wise move promoting street racing, or reckless driving.
lesson
once you exceed the friction of the tire to the road surface, you loose control or have wheel lockup.
without the tire, you dont turn, you dont stop, you dont accelerate.
well without the tire, you cannot stop. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
as for your comment on whether or not im saying that you may have an incresed stopping distance by different tire manufacturer, YES this is what I am saying, and its TRUE. get rid of the tires you have on your car now and go get some wall mart specials, since they are the same thing.
now quit comparing RACE cars to STREET driven mb's. you cannot drive hard enough on the street to outperform the stock braking system. since you cannot use the technique of THRESHOLD BRAKING on an abs car then the big brake upgrade, with more clamping force on the rotor is worthless as the computer controlls your braking.
if you are saying that you outdrive the stock braking system, then you are obviously exceeding the speed limits and or racing on the street. not a wise move promoting street racing, or reckless driving.
lesson
once you exceed the friction of the tire to the road surface, you loose control or have wheel lockup.
without the tire, you dont turn, you dont stop, you dont accelerate.
You mentioned your police cruiser brakes not being close to failure. That is good, but also has very little to do with the points that others have tried to explain to you. Hopefully, your brakes will never fail, but they will also never be good as a big brake upgrade.
05-23-2003, 03:57 AM
#50
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Thread Starter
We already have 9 orders, so my guess is we will have 10 tomorrow. If you have not contacted me, please email me at ben@evosport.com with your contact information. I will be in touch with everyone in this group purchase tomorrow via phone or email to get billing information.
Thanks,
Ben
Thanks,
Ben
