New AMSOIL 5W-40 meets 229.5 specs.
11-02-2012, 08:08 AM
#1
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2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
New AMSOIL 5W-40 meets 229.5 specs.
I know just mentioning AMSOIL can create some chaos, but I just wanted to let people know, that AMSOIL finally makes a 5W-40 European oil that meets 229.5 specs. It is product code EFM.
Now with that said realize that it is NOT on the MB Approved Service Products list, and likely won't be.
I will be a guinea pig and run it in my C230 and do some oil analysis, so we can see how it holds up against the standard Mobil 1 0W-40. This oil also meets the VW 505.00 spec, so I will also give it a whirl in my Tiguan.
Now with that said realize that it is NOT on the MB Approved Service Products list, and likely won't be.
I will be a guinea pig and run it in my C230 and do some oil analysis, so we can see how it holds up against the standard Mobil 1 0W-40. This oil also meets the VW 505.00 spec, so I will also give it a whirl in my Tiguan.
11-02-2012, 08:40 AM
#2
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Valvoline has just got it's listing. Why doesn't AMSOIL. How do we know that it would pass all the Benz engine & component testing & that it meets the specs especially HTHS.
You knew I would ask
I won't be recommending it until it goes through the Benz testing regime.
You knew I would ask
I won't be recommending it until it goes through the Benz testing regime.
11-03-2012, 09:27 AM
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2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Valvoline has just got it's listing. Why doesn't AMSOIL. How do we know that it would pass all the Benz engine & component testing & that it meets the specs especially HTHS.
You knew I would ask
I won't be recommending it until it goes through the Benz testing regime.
You knew I would ask
I won't be recommending it until it goes through the Benz testing regime.
I can't argue your logic. There are many reasons that AMSOIL doesn't submit for testing. Bottom line, they are a niche product with a stubborn CEO. There is a good thread on BITOG forum that discusses it further, just didn't want to go into it here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2616756
As I have stated before, I think most people should just stick with MB approved products at the recommended intervals. That is the safest approach no doubt. And obviously your experience in the field proves that.
Me, on the other hand, I am sort of an early adopter, and rebel. I like to do things differently than the masses. I like to experiment. I will be experimenting with the new oil, but with proper analysis. And I will accept any consequences of that decision.
Again, I am not recommending or endorsing this oil, just providing information.
11-03-2012, 11:31 AM
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One of my locomotive buddies has been trying to get me to use AmSOIL in my steam engine and Mercedes for years. I have told him when it meets Sheet 229.5 specifications, we can try a sumpful. He ran to me all excited like a ten year old that discovered cotton candy when AmSOIL said they met Sheet 229.51. He was crest fallen when I pointed that that specification was for diesel engines, and I was running twin spark gasoline (petrol for our SA friends.)
A couple of months ago he ran into the roundhouse waving an Email saying AmSOIL met sheet 229.5. Well, yes and no. Much in the same way a woodpecker self-certifies himself a carpenter, AmSOIL has declared themselves as fit for Mercedes cars with Sheet 229.5 requirements. Here is a quote from their advertising for the product:
"It is recommended for European gasoline and diesel vehicles requiring any of the following performance specifications:"
To me this is advertising copy selling a product as it does not say it meets the specification for Sheet 229.5 or VW 502.00 (diesel) or 505.00 (petrol) just that they recommend it.
I would love to buy oil from a friend, but until they test it, and make the approved products list, I'll continue with Mobil 1 0W-40.
A couple of months ago he ran into the roundhouse waving an Email saying AmSOIL met sheet 229.5. Well, yes and no. Much in the same way a woodpecker self-certifies himself a carpenter, AmSOIL has declared themselves as fit for Mercedes cars with Sheet 229.5 requirements. Here is a quote from their advertising for the product:
"It is recommended for European gasoline and diesel vehicles requiring any of the following performance specifications:"
To me this is advertising copy selling a product as it does not say it meets the specification for Sheet 229.5 or VW 502.00 (diesel) or 505.00 (petrol) just that they recommend it.
I would love to buy oil from a friend, but until they test it, and make the approved products list, I'll continue with Mobil 1 0W-40.
11-03-2012, 12:05 PM
#5
Super Moderator
I wrote a long segment on the W204 & 209 forums about AMSOIL. My problem with them is that they BS the public by using irrelevant testing in advertising to hoodwink the public. e.g. Gear oil tests on motor oils, TBN claims that relate to diesel engines for petrol engines etc. etc. & then test vs one of the lesser Mobil 1's & not 229.5 Mobil 1. Typical trade show crap for the foolhardy.
John will be monitoring with sample analysis at least but can't check things like HTHS. As long as AMSOIL behaves like a Mickey Mouse organisation I will treat them as such.
John will be monitoring with sample analysis at least but can't check things like HTHS. As long as AMSOIL behaves like a Mickey Mouse organisation I will treat them as such.
11-03-2012, 12:24 PM
#6
Super Moderator
AMSOIL nonsense here & on 204 forum - links within.
https://mbworld.org/forums/clk-class...ghlight=AMSOIL
Originally Posted by MB Dave
See like nothing has changed around here good ol Glyn still being a ...., well he knows what he is.
Here's my reply.
And you don't realise that that Amsoil is comparing apples with pears - They are not testing against Mobil 1 0W-40 Eurograde as approved by Benz & they are testing properties that are irrelevant to PCMO formulation. A really dumb marketing ploy. You obviously had difficulty in reading the link so I post a small exerpt. Quit the name calling. I have never reciprocated. This is not the OT. This is a technical forum.
Quote.
"Lets keep this simple & understandable
1) I am not saying Mobil 1 Euro formulation is the best PCMO - it is a very fine product & readily available in the US. I am saying for your Petrol Benz choose from the list of 229.5 approved oils. For your Diesel Benz passenger car choose from the list of 229.51 approved oils. I run my company's approved Havoline BM Fully Synthetic Euro formulation SAE 5W-40 in my car which is not available in the US or our wholly owned additive company's 229.5 racing formulation that is not available to the public - a perk of the job. Even if it were available I would not recommend it for general use or in locations that experience low temperatures because it is optimised for high temperature only and will not perform well in cold temperatures or combat low temperature sludge well. I live in a hot country so I can get away with it. Buy your approved oils from a well recognised major. They have the largest research budgets.
2) If you read the Definitive... thread. 229.5 & 229.51 oils are mutually exclusive. Benz has mandated that no one oil can claim meeting both specs. 229.5 oils are for petrol passenger car - Ash limits > 0.8 to 1.6%. 229.51 oils are for passenger car diesel with cat & particulate filters - Ash limit < 0.8%. Ash is a good indication of how much additive is in an oil (antiwear - dispersant - detergeant etc). The Amsoil 229.51 product will fail the 229.5 test criteria as a result.
3) Diesel engines do not rev as highly as petrol engines due to the combustion process. They don't run aggressive cam profiles like a petrol engine either. Thus HTHS & higher levels of antiwear to protect the cam & tappet area are less of an issue than in petrol engines.
4)Regarding TBN - You require as much TBN as you require & no more - more is not better if you don't have enough sulphur in the fuel to offset/neutralise it. TBN (alkalinity of an oil formulation) is there to offset the deleterious effects of combustion acids mainly driven by the sulphur content of the fuel. Basic chemistry tells us that a strong alkali is as damaging as a strong acid when it comes to corrosive effects on metals. So we don't want more TBN reserve than is necessary. I have never seen a long drain oil sample from a Benz petrol engine that has its TBN totally depleted. You or Amsoil are trying to use a mainly diesel driven positive/requirement & trying to relate it to a PCMO to somehow try & suggest this means higher TBN = better - not so.
5) We have already discussed that the Shell 4 Ball test is inappropriate for PCMOs & in fact the FZG or similar test is better for simulating gear wear. The 4 Ball correlates with very little seen in actual operating equipment. Very useful to BS & mislead the gullible public on trade show stands etc.
6) Noack values of an oil are an indication of the evapourative loss one can expect from the base fluid in an engine oil which leads to that oil thickening as a result of loss of its light ends. This is an issue in highly stressed and hot running diesel engines such as the Deutz air-cooled. It is not an issue in passenger car engine oils & the synthetic base oils used in Merc 229.5 approved products - usually PAO, display excellent Noacks anyway. I have never seen an oil sample from a Benz, racing or otherwise, that has suffered evapourative thickening.
7) 229.5 oils are an excellent choice for Turbo or SC vehicles. The most important requirement of an oil for these applications is oxidation stability to prevent deposit build up in the bearings of a TC for instance. Due to their required base fluid choice & formulation - 229.5 oils have superb oxidation stability. One of the reasons they can do 20,000 Km or 13,000 miles without a problem with proper filtration.
8) Regarding operating oil temperatures. Lower temperatures are mainly a result of the viscometrics. Pumping, shearing & churning of oils generate heat. Thinner oils will generally give you some temperature drop as would oils that shear out of grade with resultant viscosity drop - not a good thing. Reduced bulk oil temperature is not necessarily a good thing either. Many manufacturers like VW/Audi/Lambo etc control their bulk oil temp at around 130 degrees Celsius which is high because this increases engine efficiency.
9) I am not going to get into bashing Bobistheoilguy - It's fruitless. I have seen rubbish spoken by them about base fluids etc. I think good advice is - don't believe everything you read on the Internet just because it is in print. The internet is a wonderful resource but there is a lot of crap out there. You need to sort the wheat from the chaff. Something I have been bashing into my staff for years. Don't believe everything you read. Question it!"
unquote
My recommendations are well founded & are given in an endeavour to see that members enjoy a long & trouble free life from their Mercs. Oil is not just oil.
https://mbworld.org/forums/clk-class...ghlight=AMSOIL
Originally Posted by MB Dave
See like nothing has changed around here good ol Glyn still being a ...., well he knows what he is.
Here's my reply.
And you don't realise that that Amsoil is comparing apples with pears - They are not testing against Mobil 1 0W-40 Eurograde as approved by Benz & they are testing properties that are irrelevant to PCMO formulation. A really dumb marketing ploy. You obviously had difficulty in reading the link so I post a small exerpt. Quit the name calling. I have never reciprocated. This is not the OT. This is a technical forum.
Quote.
"Lets keep this simple & understandable
1) I am not saying Mobil 1 Euro formulation is the best PCMO - it is a very fine product & readily available in the US. I am saying for your Petrol Benz choose from the list of 229.5 approved oils. For your Diesel Benz passenger car choose from the list of 229.51 approved oils. I run my company's approved Havoline BM Fully Synthetic Euro formulation SAE 5W-40 in my car which is not available in the US or our wholly owned additive company's 229.5 racing formulation that is not available to the public - a perk of the job. Even if it were available I would not recommend it for general use or in locations that experience low temperatures because it is optimised for high temperature only and will not perform well in cold temperatures or combat low temperature sludge well. I live in a hot country so I can get away with it. Buy your approved oils from a well recognised major. They have the largest research budgets.
2) If you read the Definitive... thread. 229.5 & 229.51 oils are mutually exclusive. Benz has mandated that no one oil can claim meeting both specs. 229.5 oils are for petrol passenger car - Ash limits > 0.8 to 1.6%. 229.51 oils are for passenger car diesel with cat & particulate filters - Ash limit < 0.8%. Ash is a good indication of how much additive is in an oil (antiwear - dispersant - detergeant etc). The Amsoil 229.51 product will fail the 229.5 test criteria as a result.
3) Diesel engines do not rev as highly as petrol engines due to the combustion process. They don't run aggressive cam profiles like a petrol engine either. Thus HTHS & higher levels of antiwear to protect the cam & tappet area are less of an issue than in petrol engines.
4)Regarding TBN - You require as much TBN as you require & no more - more is not better if you don't have enough sulphur in the fuel to offset/neutralise it. TBN (alkalinity of an oil formulation) is there to offset the deleterious effects of combustion acids mainly driven by the sulphur content of the fuel. Basic chemistry tells us that a strong alkali is as damaging as a strong acid when it comes to corrosive effects on metals. So we don't want more TBN reserve than is necessary. I have never seen a long drain oil sample from a Benz petrol engine that has its TBN totally depleted. You or Amsoil are trying to use a mainly diesel driven positive/requirement & trying to relate it to a PCMO to somehow try & suggest this means higher TBN = better - not so.
5) We have already discussed that the Shell 4 Ball test is inappropriate for PCMOs & in fact the FZG or similar test is better for simulating gear wear. The 4 Ball correlates with very little seen in actual operating equipment. Very useful to BS & mislead the gullible public on trade show stands etc.
6) Noack values of an oil are an indication of the evapourative loss one can expect from the base fluid in an engine oil which leads to that oil thickening as a result of loss of its light ends. This is an issue in highly stressed and hot running diesel engines such as the Deutz air-cooled. It is not an issue in passenger car engine oils & the synthetic base oils used in Merc 229.5 approved products - usually PAO, display excellent Noacks anyway. I have never seen an oil sample from a Benz, racing or otherwise, that has suffered evapourative thickening.
7) 229.5 oils are an excellent choice for Turbo or SC vehicles. The most important requirement of an oil for these applications is oxidation stability to prevent deposit build up in the bearings of a TC for instance. Due to their required base fluid choice & formulation - 229.5 oils have superb oxidation stability. One of the reasons they can do 20,000 Km or 13,000 miles without a problem with proper filtration.
8) Regarding operating oil temperatures. Lower temperatures are mainly a result of the viscometrics. Pumping, shearing & churning of oils generate heat. Thinner oils will generally give you some temperature drop as would oils that shear out of grade with resultant viscosity drop - not a good thing. Reduced bulk oil temperature is not necessarily a good thing either. Many manufacturers like VW/Audi/Lambo etc control their bulk oil temp at around 130 degrees Celsius which is high because this increases engine efficiency.
9) I am not going to get into bashing Bobistheoilguy - It's fruitless. I have seen rubbish spoken by them about base fluids etc. I think good advice is - don't believe everything you read on the Internet just because it is in print. The internet is a wonderful resource but there is a lot of crap out there. You need to sort the wheat from the chaff. Something I have been bashing into my staff for years. Don't believe everything you read. Question it!"
unquote
My recommendations are well founded & are given in an endeavour to see that members enjoy a long & trouble free life from their Mercs. Oil is not just oil.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 11-03-2012 at 12:26 PM.
11-03-2012, 05:15 PM
#7
MBWorld Fanatic!
I just discovered a new oil "recommended" for use in Mercedes 229.5 oil vehicles,
it's called Snake Oil. he he
I always wondered why Royal Purple advertised here when none of their products were approved.
it's called Snake Oil. he he
I always wondered why Royal Purple advertised here when none of their products were approved.
Last edited by C230 Sport Coup; 11-03-2012 at 05:27 PM.
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12-04-2012, 01:29 AM
#9
Junior Member
I wrote a long segment on the W204 & 209 forums about AMSOIL. My problem with them is that they BS the public by using irrelevant testing in advertising to hoodwink the public. e.g. Gear oil tests on motor oils, TBN claims that relate to diesel engines for petrol engines etc. etc. & then test vs one of the lesser Mobil 1's & not 229.5 Mobil 1. Typical trade show crap for the foolhardy.
John will be monitoring with sample analysis at least but can't check things like HTHS. As long as AMSOIL behaves like a Mickey Mouse organisation I will treat them as such.
John will be monitoring with sample analysis at least but can't check things like HTHS. As long as AMSOIL behaves like a Mickey Mouse organisation I will treat them as such.
Glyn, i found this on Amsoil's Website and it shows the HTHS to be 3.7-
TYPICAL TECHNICAL PROPERTIES
European Car Formula 5W-40 Synthetic Motor Oil (EFM)
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D 445) 13.6
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D 445) 83.3
Viscosity Index (ASTM D 2270) 168
CCS Viscosity, cP @ °C (ASTM D 5293) 5433 (-30)
Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 97) -39 (-38)
Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92) 220 (428)
Fire Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92) 238 (460)
Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (ASTM D 5800) 8.7
Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D 4172B @ 40 kg, 75°C, 1200 rpm, 1 hr), Scar, mm 0.47
Total Base Number 10.1
High-Temperature/High-Shear Viscosity 150°C, 1.4 x 1.0 x 106 s-1, cP (ASTM D 5481) 3.7
im not super knowledgeable when it comes to oil and its properties, but im curious how it compares to Mobile1 and German Castrol
Thanks for your input
_n.
12-04-2012, 09:26 AM
#10
Super Moderator
It has not been through the Benz testing regime so I can't comment.
My advice is not to use it until it has a Benz approval. At present it does not. All they can try & do is weasel word their claims that it "meets the requirements of." A good old oil industry ploy.
My advice is not to use it until it has a Benz approval. At present it does not. All they can try & do is weasel word their claims that it "meets the requirements of." A good old oil industry ploy.
