yellowsub

Greetings,

This long note is to show everyone just how far Mercedes Dealers and Mercedes Benz USA are willing to go to resolve problem cars and keep their customers happy. So if you have a problem Mercedes Benz, approach your dealership with this posting or just call the people I mention here.

My wife and I bought a black 2001 C240 sedan with the C-1 memory package, automatic transmission, and heated seat/headlight cleaner package in March 2001. Our purchase was the first sale for our salesman Bill Gallagher and we were thrilled with our stylish and relatively inexpensive “Baby S Class”. The car has been a joy to drive when not in the shop. In defense of Mercedes Benz of West Chester Pennsylvania, which is an hour from where we live, every service call was handled perfectly. A driver would deliver a clean Mercedes loaner before my wife would leave for work. Over the last 28 months we have driven a variety of loaners including; first generation C320 sedan with the sport package, C320 Wagons, C240 Wagons, ML-320, E320 Sedan, C240 Sedan and a ML-350 Inspiration. When the service was completed, our C240 was returned with a light-detailing job to my wife at work or home.

The problems with the car included; four attempts at repairing rattles and groans from the front suspension, replacement of both front headlight assemblies, five attempts at the C1 memory seat/mirror system, three or four key replacements, ESP failure, EBD failure, disappearing mud flaps, cracked speaker grill, and two Tele-Aid upgrades. I might have missed something, but you get the gist of it, lots of little things that I never though I would get in a $33,000 car.

My wife has been a polite complainer throughout, never whiney, just disappointed. She reminded everyone we dealt with at the dealership that our neighbors always asked about our “New Car” every time a different loaner was parked in our driveway. She also told the service manager and loaner scheduler that it was a shame that we might leave the brand. After all, we’re the exact demographic that MBUSA was targeting with the “NEW C” campaign and we also know about how valuable an entry level buyer is in the luxury car segment. After the latest attempt at the recurring front rattles, we my wife decided to contact the owner of the dealership. Cheryl spoke with the owner of the dealership and asked what West Chester MB and MBUSA could do for us?

After a few days later West Chester MB sales manager Brian Talbot called my wife and told her that since we took advantage of MBUSA Finance to buy our car there was a variety of dealer allowance money he could use to get us into a replacement car with as little pain as possible. When he said this I researched what MBUSA sales incentives were being offered to dealers. I read about the various incentives and financing offers on C-Class sedans, wagons, and MLs.

My wife and I debated the pros and cons of the ML350 and the C-320 wagons for several weeks. Most of the discussion was gas mileage vs. carrying capacity. We knew how the C-Class would drive so Brian Talbot arranged for two separate Thursday night through Monday night test drives of ML-350s. The first was a basic P37 Inspiration edition. The AMG sport seats are great but the dark wood interior looks like dirty plastic according to my wife. I was more interested in the M2 convenience features but I wanted my wife to experience the car herself. The next week we drove a silver ML350 with the M2 full convenience/charcoal leather package, M5 sunroof, Bose radio/CD changer, heated seats and some lightly used all season floor mats. The exact options we wanted and the bonus of a hefty loaner/demo car discount.

With MBUSA and MB/Chase's credits help the dealership offered us an aggressive trade value for our C240 with 30,000 miles on it and dramatically discounted the 3,900 mile demo silver ML350 with M2, M5, 873 heated seats, and 168 Bose stereo/CD changer. I got a three month old ML350, got out of the C240 and MB credit beat the current rate from People’s First on line bank. We shook hands and signed the paper work. Our sales person Bill Gallagher introduced us to his delivery assistant who showed Cheryl the details of the car for at least an hour past closing while I entertained our 13-month-old son.

In closing I have to admit that I still have my concerns about dependability issues on the ML350. I hope that unlike my new model year C240 that the bugs have been worked out. I think that a lot of MB dealerships need to learn a thing or two about customer service from the people at West Chester MB. Specifically I would like to thank our salesman Bill Gallagher and his manager Brian Talbot for making the deal happen.

Regards

bagwell

I know somebody that had the same experience with a ML320 - the dealer helped him into a ML350.

Buellwinkle

You have to understand that MB's are far below average in dependability, always have been, always will be. Dealers do try hard to please but most customers expect the dealer to eat the entire loss but it's not their fault, it's MB's. So that's why the lemon laws target the manufacturer and not the dealer. I too have had a similar experience with Jims Slemons Mercedes in Newport Beach, CA and have purchased subsequent MB's but I know what to expect so I'm not as dissapointed as many newbies to the MB fold.

Enjoyt the new ride and just learn from your past and don't expect too much from MB and you'll be OK. I have a friend with an ML320 and much less problematic than the C-Class, afterall, they are made in the U.S.

CRB

I am glad that you were able to come to a satisfactory resolution.

Alas, a lot of Mercedes owners who got lemons wouldn't be as willing as you to move into another M-B product .

I hope that your ML will make you a satisfied owner. Good luck, because the reliabilty numbers on the M-class make the C-class look like a Lexus.

tifosiv122

It makes the process easier if they do.

Erik

Jim Banville

Yellowsub, you acknowledged your biggest mistake - buying a car in it's first year. We plan on buying an Infiniti FX35, NEXT YEAR. Infiniti is second only to Lexus in reliability, BUT the first year FX35 already has a recall on the rear door. They are planning on replacing ALL the current rear hatch doors on FX's sold and on dealer's lots. They can't be fixed.



PROVE IT
At worst, MB's average 1.95 problems for every 1 Lexus (most reliable brand on average) problem. The "average in dependability" brand has 1.67 problems for every 1 Lexus problem. So, if Lexus had 5 problems in a year, the "average in dependability" brand would have 8.35 problems and the average MB would have 9.75 problems. HOW does that make MB's far below average? All I can say is... WOW! Some people sure like to EXAGERRATE

tifosiv122

Its not that...its some psychological term...something like you see it often around you so you think its more then it is...for example, if your friends smoke, you think most people smoke. Anway, back on topic, you really only see the people that complain on this board, and it isn't a fair mix, plus the average age of a MB owner is somewhere near 65 which i'd say limits the amount of MB owners using the net, let alone the forums.

Erik

Buellwinkle

I think the reason they are not on the "net" is that they are too busy at the dealer getting their cars fixed

MarcGetty

I have to agree with Jim, this is not that much of a difference in problems.

FYI: In the 54 weeks and 35,000 miles I've had my car I've taken my car in for a total of 1 warranty problem.

There was a short in a wire leading to a speed sensor. The sunroof squeaked for a while, but when it was in for a service B I had it lubed and it has been fine ever since. I don't count this as a problem.

I can't imagine a more reliable car! I'm *VERY* rough on the car too. I drive very fast, and do on average of 2 SCCA RoadRallys a month, of which much of the route is dirt or gravel roads.

KOMPRESSORnSC

I'm rather surprised that this hasn't come up yet in this thread, and I'm not trying to discount an experience that was apparently positive from yellowsub's perspective, but let's take a look at a few things.

First, I didn't hear anythng about this car being lemoned or MBUSA being involved in anything but the financing. So we're dealing strictly with the dealer. Now the dealer isn't going to take that 240 and park it in the back of the lot and let it rust, he's going to sell it! And I'd bet my left n*t he'll sell it for more than the trade in on it.

Second, with the loaner that was purchased, I'm sure the dealer didn't take a hit on it, either. Their incentives for taking cars into their loaner program are fairly generous from what I understand. Dealers put cars into the loaner program because they know that with the incentives, they can sell the car to someone who wants a 'low mileage' car for close to what they get for a brand new one. Take a look at what a dealer wants for a loaner with a few thousand miles vs. KBB or any other source-it won't even be close! Dealers like the program becasue it gives them something between 'new' and 'used' that they can charge closer to 'new' on.


Yes, dealers want to make the customer happy and keep their business, but they are also in business to make a profit! All I see here is that yellowsub wasn't happy with the purchase, and the dealer 'helped' him purchase another one. I guess as long as yellowsub is happy, that is most important, but, as a salesperson myself, I am sure the dealer is happy (i.e. made a profit) as well, and I guess I don't see anything unusual here? My dealer tries to talk me into something different everytime I'm in there for service promising 'a little bit better reliability'.

Just my .02

tommy

MB is far below average because the average car has only 85.85% of the number of problems that an MB has. And only 37% of the brands finished worse than MB.

Saying things the way that you did doesn't really point out the magnitude of how low MB is. As far as the Lexus-MB comparison, if you said that your average MB is twice as likely to have a problem as the average Lexus, then that would most certainly sway people over to the Lexus (of course, they'd have to drive their cars, then they'd come back to MB).

TXTiger

[/B][/QUOTE]

PROVE IT
At worst, MB's average 1.95 problems for every 1 Lexus (most reliable brand on average) problem. The "average in dependability" brand has 1.67 problems for every 1 Lexus problem. So, if Lexus had 5 problems in a year, the "average in dependability" brand would have 8.35 problems and the average MB would have 9.75 problems. HOW does that make MB's far below average? All I can say is... WOW! Some people sure like to EXAGERRATE [/B][/QUOTE]

Give it a break Jim.......I'm just as sick of hearing this line from you as I am of hearing Buellwinkle's line about cookies and muffins....

peet

I'd imagine that a major percentage of warranty work on MB's was from the M class - (older ones though). My service manager told me that they have about 75% get a total ring job and engine rebuild to do it. They're burning gas like it's going out of style.

P

Matt230K

Be careful what you're betting. I wouldn't want you to lose that left nut. If yellowsub was really given an aggressive trade-in value, as he claimed, then there probably wasn't a whole lot of money to be made on the car. The market is very weak on used C-classes right now because of the incentives offered on new ones.

I would be inclined to bet that the dealer did this deal more for the satisfaction of the customer than for profit. They may have even lost money on it if they offered enough in trade. Sure, they are in the business for making profit, but sometimes they lose money on certain deals. It happens, but at least the car gets sold. My dealer just sold a 2001 S600 at a HUGE loss, just to finally get rid of the car.

Jim Banville

This is a funny phenomenon- Buellwinkle, or someone with his attitude towards MB, bashes their reliability, then I come in and point out concrete evidence to refute his claim, then someone like TXTiger or that girl that traded her MB for a Saab comes in and tells ME to be quiet because they are tired of the reliability debate. Yes, TXTiger did mention being tired of Buellwinkle too, but both he and this other person refer to ME first. TxTiger didn't say "Hey, Buellwinkle (who posted first about MB reliability in this thread) & Jim Banville...cut it out". I don't know. I just think it's strange. Perhaps these people are more tired of people defending MB than those bashing it. Hmm? Anyway.... yes, that MB that got traded in will get sold to some poor SOB that'll buy it, have more problems and come here to biotch about it
Then the bashers will claim this is another MB lemon

Jim Banville

I seriously doubt it. 2x the problems isn't bad at all. If it were like 5x the problems, as some here would like to think, THAT would be bad! I don't think reliability ranks that high on people's priorities. I'd say they look at utility, looks, brand, comfort, performance, safety and then reliability. They go in realizing it is going to be reasonably reliable, which is certainly is . It's pretty much common knowledge these day that Japan makes the most reliable cars. Most people realize MB's aren't made in Japan

Buellwinkle

Wait Jim, wasn't it you that also had some issues with your car? Don't come back and tell us that you had zero defects since new. Aren't you giving up your 2 year old C240 for #2 in reliability, the Infiniti? You talk a lot but your actions speak for themselves.

MarcGetty

While those of us who are statisticly minded realize the difference between 1.0 and 1.9 problems per year is not that much, many others do not.

More important to me is the ridicliously distant forethought that the Germans put into their cars. When my cars do something that I don't like or understand, I often ask myself if there is a reason that they do that beyond my first level comprehension, and after much tought, sometimes there is!

Not to mention the incredible resale value....

benz2

This wasn't a buy back.......all this is is a trade in. Pure and simple.

jpb5151

It's not a bug, it's a feature! ... sorry ...

Also, to Jim, reliability is high on our list; we just decided to play the odds. But you probably are right wrt MB buyers in general.

Our 230k sedan has to go in Monday because the passenger seat adjustment buttons don't work anymore. But I figured out why: If I ever have to slam on the brakes while my wife's adjusting her seat, she might get tangled in the seat belt.

If more problems arise, I won't have qualms about making this our last Benz. I'll gladly give up features, feel and looks for reliability (just like I did when replacing ms windows back in 1998 ).

tommy

If you're statistically minded, wouldn't you understand MORE the difference between 1 and 1.9????

Look at a double-stuffed oreo and tell me that twice isn't a large difference. I'm not really understanding why doubling the probability of getting a problem would not be seen as something to think about when buying a car.

Guess I'm just an idiot who doesn't appreciate the wonderfulness of taking my car into the service dept. Or, it seems, the incredible resale value of my car?

Jim Banville

DAMN, I get tired of repeating myself
(1) I NEVER said MB's, in general, were perfect or had zero defects.
(2) I NEVER said MY MB was perfect or had zero defects.
(3) I NEVER said MB's were, in general, more reliable than Japanese brands
(4) I have ALWAYS said MB's, in general, were average in reliability.
(5) I have ALWAYS said that I consider my MB as "very reliable" because the only problems we ever had were very minor and NEVER affected drivability.
(6) I ALWAYS planned on only keeping this C240 for a couple of years - we can only afford 1 "expensive" car (anything over $30K is expensive to us) - we trade-in our current "expensive car" for a new "expensive car" every 2 years OR LESS!
(7) If the FX35 we're planning on buying had an MB badge on the front, I'd be even MORE excited about getting it! I do consider MB more classy than Infiniti. It is true that Infiniti's, in general, are more reliable than MB's, but to what extent? I already told you that there is already a recall on the back door, which brings me back to my original point - NEVER buy a car in it's first year!

Now, is there anything else you like me to repeat for the umpteenth time?

Some MB bashers around here would like to believe that if MB problems were an Oreo cookie, it would be the size of a Big Mac!

No one said reliability isn't a factor in buying a car. Some of us simply believe that it isn't a top priority when the numbers are so close. If reliability was a top priority for most people, all the brands below the top few in reliability would simply go out of business. Do you actually see Range Rover going out of business any time soon?!

Rick

Why does this forum elicit such argumentative and antagonistic replies? What do you people get out of fighting the words on your screen?

I used to come to MBWorld.org for information about my cars and pleasant corespondence with those that share a common interest. What happened? Was Dr. Iggy right about the C-Class lowering the bar on the esteem of a Mercedes owner?

Paging Dr. Iggy.....(those of you who were around back then will remember)

Jim Banville

Tommy, the KEY to MarcGetty's statement is "per year". If someone ate 1regular Oreo in a year and someone else who ate 1 double-stuffed Oreo cookie in a year, would you say that was a truly significant difference? NO.
Do you really think that if a salesman was standing between a Lexus and a comparable MB, and told the customer, "You will probably visit us once a year for a problem with this Lexus, and you will probably visit us twice a year for a problem with this MB", that would cause the customer to say, "Oh my god! I'm definitely getting the Lexus then!"? I don't think so

Jim Banville

I think the reliability issue is the only item that causes "antagonisitc" debate around here. I'm sorry, but I can't sit idley by while people publicy bash and downright lie about any of my "interests". You wanna see heated debate? Come over to one of the Home Theater Forums and look at some of the "Do expensive cables make a difference?" threads.