avlis

Anyone hear if the coupe sales numbers have met DC's expectations so far? Or is it destined to become the next ti?

Either way- I'm glad I got mine

Mike T.

Mercedes-Benz sold about 56,000 of them worldwide between April 2001 and the end of last year. I think they consider it a success.

toki999

i see more and more of C230K driving around in L.A. area......with no license plates.....

i think it's a success.....but did u guys notice that the owners are rather old?

dave

viper

"i think it's a success.....but did u guys notice that the owners are rather old?" - toki999

I smell flame bait here !

toki999

hahha i didn't mean that way.......i was leading to the direction there isn't much females on c230K....

i guess our car is not a chick car after all =)

no flame want here = dave

young

old owners to female drivers? i don't get it... i'm old...
you're on my blacklist...
--

back to the subject - i think in the US, according to STAR mag, they were planning to sell about 20000 (or 22000) cars for the 1st year. last time i checked, they were not at a pace that would reach that figure. but i don't think that means anything yet.

vadim

Now that we own them, wouldn't we want the C Coupe not to be a success?

Mark08859

Well, just enough to provide good re-sale value; but not so that I can see one on every corner.

FrankW

C coupe is a success story with the hatchback design. MB had done what BMW couldn't in this luxury yet affordable segment of market.

i think we all saw what kind of disaster BMW had when they brought the 318TI into the states. although the design of the 318TI weren't so bad it was just to early when BMW introduce this hatchback concept to america.

KJ-TypeR

I think it's a succes.

My girlfriend is 23 years old and was able to afford one on her own.

It's her VERY FIRST CAR ever. She's never owned a car or had one to drive around before.

This is her first car, and of course her first Benz. I'm sure she'll end up buying another Benz later as she grows older. So is it a success? Sure it is. She gets compliments and stares all the time when she's driving it.

If she ends up buying a few more Benz's in her lifetime because she likes her C230K so much, it's an even bigger success!

curioused

Yup, I agree, success is good...too much is not good... meaning I would see one every second like a bimmer (silver)....

dasMafia

I think the jury is still out...

I think the car came out VERY well, and everyone I know who has seen it has loved it.

I also think that the car is a wonderful design and a great piece of engineering.

but I'm not too sure MB has managed to do what they had hoped demographically... my mother-in-law is looking at one, and only yesterday did I see one on the road for the first time (admittedly in small-city midwest, at least 8 have been sold in town according to friend/MB sales manager)... that car was driven by a 50+ woman.

I THINK... that if MB can further decontent it and subsitute some better features (standard CD, better bass in stereo, maybe offer a 200K.....), basically, they need a $25,000 OUT THE DOOR CAR, that means it has to have a CD, a decent stereo, and a sunroof... if they can do that...the line WILL attract younger buyers... until then, the CONTENT of the RSX (same size similar $$) will take too many sales from them.

from a media standpoint (warning, marekting degree rearing its ugly head), they need a commercial on ESPN or MTV that shows a C230 ripping it up on the roads or a racetrack...

I also think that LESS sound insulation and MORE effort on the controls would make the car more viable to the performance crowd, whether or not it changes the actual performance numbers.

I also think they need to lower the corporate margin on some of the options... C7 is priced well, but leather is horrid considering most will never use the back seat... MB-tex would be a godsend, and take tele-aid off the options list, it paints the safety picture that young people are not interested in...

making the above changes (they are all possible) would result in a marketing and sales success... they also could cause serious damage to MBs corporate image and long-term profitability. with the current C230, they have a car below ANY current BMW... not something the dealers are thrilled with... at least base bimmers come with fake leather... not neon-grade cloth.

jsut my thoughts.. and some insight into why I DIDN'T choose the C230, despite its intellectual appeal.

art_Ccoupe

yeah same here.. i'm working and i'm also 20 and i just ordered mine 2 mths ago.. gonna get here end of this month... my next target would be the SLK32... but need to save more money for that one!!

hope ur GF loves the car more.. cuz i just can't stop looking at the poster of the coupe on the roof of my room...

avlis

The hatchback topic has been debated before but I'll bring it up again anyway.

Hatchbacks had been selling successfully in America many years before the 318ti. I don't think the 318ti's failure had ANYTHING to do with the "Americans don't buy hatchbacks" B.S.

The Ford Escort sold as a hatchback for over a decade (though I read that Ford never made a profit). Aren't SAABs hatchbacks? What about Eclipse/Talons? Camaros, Corvettes? VW Golf/GTI? Civic DX? Acura Integra? What about (sorry for mentioning this) SUV's? Don't most of them have a "hatch" for a rear door?

The key is- the vehicles mentioned above all had something to offer other than just being a "hatchback". They were marketed with features such as performance, price, economy, or utility, etc. I don't know if that can be said for the 318ti (that was before my time).

viper

I don't think MB is too concerned that their demographics were a little off. After all a sale is a sale. Besides how many old farts have you seen tooling around in new Corvettes ? I have seen plenty and I don't think GM has a 65+ demographic for that vehicle.

To many people a Mercedes has always had an "out of reach" price tag. If not based in fact at least it was a mindset. Don't forget when BMW first came to North America it was relatively cheap. BMW has always been a Mercedes wannabee. (Sorry dasMafia I know you won't like that one)
The fact that they have done so well in the marketplace is more testament to their 1980's yuppy marketing that implanted the idea in the yuppy psyche that success=BMW. I am not knocking BMW vehicles. They have fine products. But they never were at the forefront of any technological developments. No flames please but they have been dressing up that inline-6 for over 30 years now. And BMW did not invent the air-bag or many other true innovations.

I think MB did a great job in bringing the coupe to market. Sure it can be improved like any other vehicle. Lets watch BMW play catch up now.

dasMafia

BINGO... the problem with the 318ti was that it was a 318, not a 325 or even a 320... it was too slow to sell to the power-hungy youth market.

it also was not supported by a suitable marketing plan IIRC... this danger still looms for the C230 as well.

one thing that hasn't been discussed is one common thread in successfully marketed "youth" cars... they seem to have engine choices...

Intagra: 3 choices
new RSX: 2 (a third on the way)
Civic: 4 (5th on the way)
Accord: 3
Eclipse: 4, 3, 2
Jetta: 4-5
Golf: 4-5
celica (early 90s): 3
Mustang: 5 in 2003, 11 in 1970
camaro: 3 in '02
Imprezza: 3 or 4

I'd never thought of this before, but what this creates is an aspiration group of younger/less monied drivers who can't afford the "big enchilada" but can afford an Itegra RS, or a Golf 2.0, or a mustang V6... these people aspire to the station of the ITR, GTI, and Cobra owners and create a larger following.

traditionally, the luxury brands (in the US) have offered only one entry model and it has been offered with a single engine option (318ti, C230, G20 come to mind...) Ironically, these cars have all NOT meet the desired sales figures or demographics.

-------------------

The problem with a demographic miss is that it screws up the overall image of the vehicle line in the market... MB needed some younger buyers that had been flocking to BMW and Audi, and went after them with a smart product (not always the best approach...). if they miss the demographic, and old people buy the bottom-line entry car... they start to look like toyota or cadillac in a hurry.

now, I'm not convinced that this has happened... even here on this board we see evidence that a lot of these cars are gong into the sub30 demographic and that a decent number are male. If our initial reactions were off, then this indicates that MB DOES have a well-marketed car that also is selling to expectaion...

now the wild card is the economy... a large percentage of the target market is currently unemployed, underemployed, or at risk of loosing thier job due toteh current economic situation... had the coupe showed up 12-18 months earlier, I think we wouldn't be having this conversation and that MB would be back-logged with 12 months worth of orders.

-----------------------

this statement kind of pisses me off... the inline 6 of today has litterally nothing in common with the sixes in the old bavaria, or even the 325e of yore. would you say the same of honda for "beating that old 4-banger to death" or possibly to porsche with their flat-6 configuration...?

from an engineering standpoint, the inline engine IS superior to it V counterpart (the V looses output to destructive vibrations built into an inherently unbalanced engine. the natural harmonic balance of a straigh 6 (or V12) allows the engines to create more power over a larger RPM range AND allows the engine to accelerate its mass more quickly...) the fact that MB ababndonded it for packaging concerns kind of irks me... they sacrificed power, performance, and refinement for convenience. (and they were using an inline 6 for WAY more than 30 years)

the fact is that there are only a limited number of viable engine configurations... (regardless of what colonel peich thinks over at VW), and the inline-6 is one of them... in reality, lets look at it: I-3, I-4, V4/flat-4 (rarely used), I5, I6, V6/flat-6, I8, V8(never seen a flat 8), V10, V12/flat-12..... thats 10 conbinations... three of which are virtually non-existent, that leaves 7... so 7 configurations spread between the worlds automakers... hmmmm.

sorry, had to vent.

viper

Thanks dasMafia. I knew you would not let us down.

greg230

Lets just go over that list from asia, and see what japan is doing:

first off the integra is gone, no one is pining for a used GSR the type-r holds value well cause of super low production numbers.

Honda has 3 products to offer up vs the coupe: the civic (screams cheap boy racer) the RSX (better appointed civic, still doesnt say much beyond boyracer) and the accord coupe (which is fuddy duddy)

Nissan has the sentra, the xtera and the 350z. The sentra is an econobox and the Z is a entry level sports car. the xterra is the sport ute for youths

Mitsu has the eclipse, nice rag top for the price, dated looking

toyota offers the matrix and the celica, both are very boy racer

Suburu has the wrx, which is a great AWD platform, and a fun car to beat around in.

All these youth oriented cars are marketed to one of two groups:

1. first time drivers, looking for cheap, fun to drive cars, that are built on economy car platforms (hence the lack of power in low rpms, small displacement, and shared platform)

2. the second car people, leaving the civic, or the prelude, and stepping up to the rsx. These are the people MB wants in the coupe. They are younger, and still havent fully surrendered to the 4 door kiss of death. They are out of college, with decent jobs, and decent credit, and are looking to get something a BIT more upmarket.

Until the advent of lower priced C,3,A4 cars these people would step up to integras, passats, jettas, mustangs. Now for the same price they can get a premium marque car.

MB seems to market the coupe vs bmws and audis, they should be sending c7 cars to edmunds and car and driver to run against RSX, tiburons and the like.

when people see that for under 30k they can get a much better appointed, and more exclusive car then the usual suspects people will flock towards the coupe

dasMafia

greg, I was just hypothesizing... and the RSX IS the new integra, so that was simply for the sake of a relative continuum.

I was just looking at cars that are successful in the same demographic, and many of them are priced near the C230... althouhg not all... just trying to draw a link between successful cars (from a sales standpoint).

Spyke

As opposed to what? Changing configurations ever ten years or so?

An inline six is a great platform to start with... given my choice I'd start development with one of those over an inline four any day.

viper

You misunderstand my point.

I never said the inline-6 is a "bad" engine. I'm saying that with the buckets of money BMW has pulled in that they don't appear to be innovative with their powertrains. That engine is in almost every vehicle they make in one form or another.

Sure you can make the argument that they refine their product as opposed to re-invent. BMW lovers always espouse that one. But in reality if you check the bimmer forums you will see that their engine has its share of problems. At some point they should develop a "revolutionary" engine instead of an "evolutionary" engine. There are limits to growth when a product does nothing but evolve and its possible they hit that wall long ago. As long as sales are there why should they bother developing something better. For a company that prides itself on engineering I find it funny that BMW can't be revolutionary.

We would still be eating with wooden sticks if somebody didn't have the bright idea of developing something better. Get the point ?

DrMike

Is it a success?

Definition of success depends on whether I am a driver, DC exec/employee, DC stockholder.

As I driver, it is a success for me: an enjoyable, exciting, stylish car at a great price point, with quite a bit more cachet than a Camry.

dasMafia

... MB uses the 3.2 V6 in virtually every car that they market as well... and GM uses the same engines accross several brands, and audi uses the same turbo-4 and V6 in multiple models... its the only way to sell cars at a reasonable price.

I think that you are mistaking confiuguration with design. the revolutionary changes in design have come in the form of variable valve timing (first introduced by honda), and more efficient combustion chambers, better air-flow through the engine, more effective engine management (more powerful and more economical), as well as variable-length intake runners, electronic throttles.... these have absolutely nothing to do with the configuration of the cylinders. even these changes are more evolutionary than revolutionary... the only revolutionary change in the past 100 years was the wankel rotary.

every car has problems, but the bmw 6 has very few related to the design... do vanos units fail... sure, do clutches go, yep! do throttle bodies and solenoids crap-out... definitely, but none of these have to do with the configuration of the engine.

if you want to rag on BMW for building cars with the same engine configuration and drivetrain layout, go ahead... but I think your idea of the current state of technology in the BMW 6 is pretty limited... for instance:
the new S54 motor in the M3 has an individual electronic throttle for each of the 6 cylinders, variable-length intake runners, continuously variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust cams, an engine management system that manipulates the cam timing to effect quicker catalytic converter light-off, and over 100bhp/l... sounds pretty good to me!

and I also disagree with your assessment of "revoltionary" and "engineering" they are not the same thing... BMW is rarely first to market something, the same as MB... this is because they spend more time engineering thier products to extract the last iota of performance and refinement. an engineering firm is not necessarily responsible for comming up with new ideas... they can also perfect the ones already out there...

FrankW

by the end of day you sure are a jackass dasmafia

i'm just kidding.

i definetly agree with you on what you are saying

the i-6 in BMW is a mighty fine engine for some 20 yrs of age.

seriously... although i drive a C32 now. the idle sound of the MB V6 (in my C32 and my sister's CLK320) or V8 (in my dad's ML) are just horrible. sounds like a diesel engine. high rev sound are great though. it has a powerful grunt at high rev.

the i-6 in my late 328CI sounded better at idle speed. and at really really high rev.

tommy

Children, take it outside, please.

And I thought that my arguments with whats-her-name were bad.