what are the benefits & um, bad things about diesel engines?
12-01-2001, 01:10 AM
#1
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what are the benefits & um, bad things about diesel engines?
aren't diesel engines banned in California due to excessive pollution? also, finding a gas station w/ diesel is sometimes a hassle.
a good thing is that they get higher gas mileage (but is it enough to offset the pollution - or am i way off on that point anyway?) also, a friend once told me that diesel engines don't die if you go thru water. is that true?
it seems that diesel engines are widely available in europe but not in the US. (don't know about asia)
a good thing is that they get higher gas mileage (but is it enough to offset the pollution - or am i way off on that point anyway?) also, a friend once told me that diesel engines don't die if you go thru water. is that true?
it seems that diesel engines are widely available in europe but not in the US. (don't know about asia)
12-01-2001, 09:48 AM
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Toyota Tacoma & Lexus IS250
disadvantages....they stink, they're noisy, smelly, terrible polluting engines, fuel stinks, its dirty-greasy.
why would anyone ever consider one .........for an extra 2 MPG ???!!!!!
why would anyone ever consider one .........for an extra 2 MPG ???!!!!!
12-01-2001, 10:08 AM
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99 ml320, 2002 C230K
It's more like 5 to 10mpg more than gasoline engines. In Europe, diesel is much less expensive than gasoline (they tax it less to encourage its use). Especially where gas is $4/gallon, operating costs for a car can be dramatically lower when you combine the higher mpg and lower cost/gallon.
It is just my observation (I don't have facts) that in general the european middle class has far less disposable income than we Americans. Thus they are much more concious of convervation than we. My wife's relatives in GB only do laundry late at night because the electricity rates are so much lower.
Here in the US we still do not take conservation to heart, mostly do to our low fuel prices and realtive wealth.
It is just my observation (I don't have facts) that in general the european middle class has far less disposable income than we Americans. Thus they are much more concious of convervation than we. My wife's relatives in GB only do laundry late at night because the electricity rates are so much lower.
Here in the US we still do not take conservation to heart, mostly do to our low fuel prices and realtive wealth.
12-01-2001, 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by bagwell
disadvantages....they stink, they're noisy, smelly, terrible polluting engines, fuel stinks, its dirty-greasy.
why would anyone ever consider one .........for an extra 2 MPG ???!!!!!
disadvantages....they stink, they're noisy, smelly, terrible polluting engines, fuel stinks, its dirty-greasy.
why would anyone ever consider one .........for an extra 2 MPG ???!!!!!
12-01-2001, 10:40 AM
#5
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I have had a few MB and VW diesels in the past. At the time, they were great. Fuel was much less than gasoline until a tax was put on a few years ago that made it much more expensive. Then there was the removal of sulphur from the fuel that made it more expensive as well. So now, you usually pay more for diesel fuel than gasoline. Getting the fuel is not that big a problem. You learn where the stations are at and you usually have a very long range on your tank of diesel. The fuel does stink, sticks to everything, and everything sticks to where the fuel is at. Not that bad--just irritating.
I do not think anyone has mentioned the very cold weather problems with diesels. They do not like to start in extremely cold weather. A block heater is almost a necessity. Also, if the diesel fuel formulation is not changed in the winter (a problem at some stations that sell a small amount of fuel), the fuel will gel in the tank and fuel lines and talk about a mess!
But the biggest thing I have against diesels now is the lack of properly trained mechanics. I have observed that most MB dealers usually do not have anyone who really knows diesels. You can have a simple problem that cannot be fixed properly at the dealer. You usually have to find an independent and they are usually much older and not that far from retirement. (The one I used to use died a couple of years ago.) So who is going to fix them in the future?
As far as Europe, diesel is now almost the same price as gasoline. I think right now that diesel is about $3.50 in England with gasoline being $4.00. So you might save some but not all that much except for less fuel consumption.
I have found the diesels are usually fantastic in comsumption at the expense of power. My old 190D2.2 would get 28 mpg in town, about 40 mpg on the road, but would not pass a Yugo. In its defense, I sold it to a friend about 9 years ago and it is still going strong with about 135,000 miles and no major repairs yet. And still no power!
I do not think anyone has mentioned the very cold weather problems with diesels. They do not like to start in extremely cold weather. A block heater is almost a necessity. Also, if the diesel fuel formulation is not changed in the winter (a problem at some stations that sell a small amount of fuel), the fuel will gel in the tank and fuel lines and talk about a mess!
But the biggest thing I have against diesels now is the lack of properly trained mechanics. I have observed that most MB dealers usually do not have anyone who really knows diesels. You can have a simple problem that cannot be fixed properly at the dealer. You usually have to find an independent and they are usually much older and not that far from retirement. (The one I used to use died a couple of years ago.) So who is going to fix them in the future?
As far as Europe, diesel is now almost the same price as gasoline. I think right now that diesel is about $3.50 in England with gasoline being $4.00. So you might save some but not all that much except for less fuel consumption.
I have found the diesels are usually fantastic in comsumption at the expense of power. My old 190D2.2 would get 28 mpg in town, about 40 mpg on the road, but would not pass a Yugo. In its defense, I sold it to a friend about 9 years ago and it is still going strong with about 135,000 miles and no major repairs yet. And still no power!
12-01-2001, 01:22 PM
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Let another former diesel owner comment:
I had an '82 300TD wagon for 12 years and 150k miles. The plus side of the diesel was:
*better mileage
*cheaper fuel (although fuel prices varied seasonally since diesel is essentially the same as heating oil and is a byproduct of gasoline manufacture, or so I understood. Thus, prices were above gasoline in winter and below in summer.)
*simpler mechanicals on the engine. There was a glow plug for starting but after that no spark plugs needed. No distributer either.
*durability. MB diesels especially. They were build from the ground up as diesels, not adapted gasoline engines. 350k to 500k is not unusual on a diesel.
*distinctive sound-friends and family know when you arrive
Disadvantages:
*cold weather starting. About once every other year or so, here in the northeast, my diesel would simply not start after sitting outside in below zero weather all day. Just a tow to a warm garage and I was all better. Fuel additive is a must in the winter.
*pickup. I could run across an intersection faster than the diesel could get me there. Good torque once it got going.
*sooty exhaust
*oil fuel-sticks to things
*fuel and fuel tank can collect water and clog things up
Overall, though, for folks who like to keep durable cars for a long time, it's hard to beat a MB diesel.
I had an '82 300TD wagon for 12 years and 150k miles. The plus side of the diesel was:
*better mileage
*cheaper fuel (although fuel prices varied seasonally since diesel is essentially the same as heating oil and is a byproduct of gasoline manufacture, or so I understood. Thus, prices were above gasoline in winter and below in summer.)
*simpler mechanicals on the engine. There was a glow plug for starting but after that no spark plugs needed. No distributer either.
*durability. MB diesels especially. They were build from the ground up as diesels, not adapted gasoline engines. 350k to 500k is not unusual on a diesel.
*distinctive sound-friends and family know when you arrive
Disadvantages:
*cold weather starting. About once every other year or so, here in the northeast, my diesel would simply not start after sitting outside in below zero weather all day. Just a tow to a warm garage and I was all better. Fuel additive is a must in the winter.
*pickup. I could run across an intersection faster than the diesel could get me there. Good torque once it got going.
*sooty exhaust
*oil fuel-sticks to things
*fuel and fuel tank can collect water and clog things up
Overall, though, for folks who like to keep durable cars for a long time, it's hard to beat a MB diesel.
12-01-2001, 07:14 PM
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2005 smart cabrio; 2008 Mercedes-Benz B 200
Here is the reality.
The roughly equivalent diesel model in Europe to the C 240 is the C 270 CDI.
The 270 CDI has a top speed of 143 MPH, vs. 146 MPH for the C 240, and the 270 CDI does 0-62 MPH in 8.9 seconds, vs. 9.2 seconds for the C 240. So in speed it's a null match, though on the road the diesel is FAR faster due to its 55% higher torque rating.
As for fuel economy, it is not a mere 2 MPG difference between the M-B gas and diesel engines. Nor is it a mere 4-8 MPG difference. According to the 2001 model year EU C-Class brochure, the C 240 has a mixed traffic fuel economy rating of 21 MPG US, according to EU test protocols. The C 270 CDI has a mixed traffic fuel economy rating of 35 MPG US. That is a BIG DIFFERENCE, 14 MPG. A HUGE difference, in fact.
If you can accept slightly less performance in a diesel than a C 240, then the C 220 CDI might be better - it tops out at 137 MPH and takes 10.3 seconds to go from 0-62 MPH - and the fuel economy rating is 38 MPG US overall, very nearly TWICE as fuel efficient as the C 240!!!
About pollution, it is true that diesels naturally have higher output of nitrous oxides (NOx) than gasoline engines, due to the higher compression ratio. They also produce a lot more small particulates. But modern diesels have catalysts that reduce the NOx to low levels without much problem.
So what about the problem of particulates? Firstly, modern common-rail diesels do not produce clouds of soot when the accelerator pedal is pushed. The electronic injection system meters fuel carefully and the rich running condition evident in 1980s and earlier diesels are a thing of the past. So the volume of soot is naturally lower.
Beyond the advantages of common rail injection, M-B does not at the moment do anything else to reduce particulates, other than what may be further combusted in the regular diesel catalyst.
However, Peugeot has been the first producer of diesel engines to introduce a self-cleaning particle filter (FAP - filtre à particules) for its HDi engine series. This filter traps 99% of the (few) particles in the HDi diesel exhaust and stores them in a proprietary exhaust catalyst. After about 500 miles of driving, the catalyst is heated up to a super-high temperature, and aided by a calatytic reagent that is automatically injected into the catalyst, thereby vapourising all of the particulates. The particulate level coming out of the Peugeot HDi engine is equivalent to that of a gas engine, even during the "particle purging" process.
Mercedes-Benz is apparently looking to introduce something similar in the near future, although it's not clear to me if they're going to swallow their pride and pay Peugeot for its patented FAP technology or invent somthing similar. In any case, I'd expect particle control within a year on the CDI engine range.
The final problem is that North American fuel (both diesel and gasoline) contains huge amounts of sulphur. This will have to be reduced for CA emission control standards to be met by modern diesels, and indeed for gas engines too, though gasoline already contains less sulphur, being a more refined petroleum fraction.
So there you have it.
The roughly equivalent diesel model in Europe to the C 240 is the C 270 CDI.
The 270 CDI has a top speed of 143 MPH, vs. 146 MPH for the C 240, and the 270 CDI does 0-62 MPH in 8.9 seconds, vs. 9.2 seconds for the C 240. So in speed it's a null match, though on the road the diesel is FAR faster due to its 55% higher torque rating.
As for fuel economy, it is not a mere 2 MPG difference between the M-B gas and diesel engines. Nor is it a mere 4-8 MPG difference. According to the 2001 model year EU C-Class brochure, the C 240 has a mixed traffic fuel economy rating of 21 MPG US, according to EU test protocols. The C 270 CDI has a mixed traffic fuel economy rating of 35 MPG US. That is a BIG DIFFERENCE, 14 MPG. A HUGE difference, in fact.
If you can accept slightly less performance in a diesel than a C 240, then the C 220 CDI might be better - it tops out at 137 MPH and takes 10.3 seconds to go from 0-62 MPH - and the fuel economy rating is 38 MPG US overall, very nearly TWICE as fuel efficient as the C 240!!!
About pollution, it is true that diesels naturally have higher output of nitrous oxides (NOx) than gasoline engines, due to the higher compression ratio. They also produce a lot more small particulates. But modern diesels have catalysts that reduce the NOx to low levels without much problem.
So what about the problem of particulates? Firstly, modern common-rail diesels do not produce clouds of soot when the accelerator pedal is pushed. The electronic injection system meters fuel carefully and the rich running condition evident in 1980s and earlier diesels are a thing of the past. So the volume of soot is naturally lower.
Beyond the advantages of common rail injection, M-B does not at the moment do anything else to reduce particulates, other than what may be further combusted in the regular diesel catalyst.
However, Peugeot has been the first producer of diesel engines to introduce a self-cleaning particle filter (FAP - filtre à particules) for its HDi engine series. This filter traps 99% of the (few) particles in the HDi diesel exhaust and stores them in a proprietary exhaust catalyst. After about 500 miles of driving, the catalyst is heated up to a super-high temperature, and aided by a calatytic reagent that is automatically injected into the catalyst, thereby vapourising all of the particulates. The particulate level coming out of the Peugeot HDi engine is equivalent to that of a gas engine, even during the "particle purging" process.
Mercedes-Benz is apparently looking to introduce something similar in the near future, although it's not clear to me if they're going to swallow their pride and pay Peugeot for its patented FAP technology or invent somthing similar. In any case, I'd expect particle control within a year on the CDI engine range.
The final problem is that North American fuel (both diesel and gasoline) contains huge amounts of sulphur. This will have to be reduced for CA emission control standards to be met by modern diesels, and indeed for gas engines too, though gasoline already contains less sulphur, being a more refined petroleum fraction.
So there you have it.
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12-01-2001, 07:19 PM
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2002 Mercedes-Benz C230 Kompressor Sports Coupe
I'm guessing one of the issues with selling diesels in the US the fact that here a car company's fleet is averaged out for the emissions. Meaning that the car company can't afford to introduce a car that has emissions even slightly worse than their low-emissions cars. They need every point to compensate for their trucks, bigger cars, etc.
So they need every C-Class low-emissions sale to help balance out their their G-Class and probably S-Class.
Rick
So they need every C-Class low-emissions sale to help balance out their their G-Class and probably S-Class.
Rick
12-01-2001, 07:20 PM
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The newer Diesels (C270 CDI) are very sophisiticated and many people won't even know it's a Diesel. It drives just like a gas engined car. If I had a choice between the C240 and C270 CDI, I would take the C270 CDI.
12-01-2001, 11:00 PM
#10
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I had three diesel MBs. Two where 190Ds. Yes they are slow but I averaged 40 mpg with as high as 48 on long trips (EPA Hwy that year was 50). The most fun I would have is dropping it down a couple of gears on the freeway to overrev it and it would send unburnt fuel out the exhaust an onto an obnoxious persons windshield. Watching them turn on their wipers and smearing diesel fuel on their windows was priceless. They never knew what hit them.
My other MB diesel was a 1984 300D Turbodiesel. That performed as well as gas cars of that size and weight in it's time. It was an automatic so I couldn't dump diesel fuel on windows as well as the 190Ds. It consistantly got about 24-25 mpg which wasn't bad but nowhere near the 190D's.
Would I buy a diesel again if it was offered, NO! Diesel stations are far and few between, even so in 1984 when they were more popular. I've spent many days with a 1/4 tank wondering if I'll be able to find a station before I run dry (happened once). The noise doesn't bother me because it's only at idle. Once you are moving you are in an MB and they are quiet. The smoke on newer diesels, even 1984 was negligable on MBs. American diesels are what gave diesels a bad name. They were converted gasoline V8's that were smoky and unreliable.
My other MB diesel was a 1984 300D Turbodiesel. That performed as well as gas cars of that size and weight in it's time. It was an automatic so I couldn't dump diesel fuel on windows as well as the 190Ds. It consistantly got about 24-25 mpg which wasn't bad but nowhere near the 190D's.
Would I buy a diesel again if it was offered, NO! Diesel stations are far and few between, even so in 1984 when they were more popular. I've spent many days with a 1/4 tank wondering if I'll be able to find a station before I run dry (happened once). The noise doesn't bother me because it's only at idle. Once you are moving you are in an MB and they are quiet. The smoke on newer diesels, even 1984 was negligable on MBs. American diesels are what gave diesels a bad name. They were converted gasoline V8's that were smoky and unreliable.
12-05-2001, 09:21 AM
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Toyota Tacoma & Lexus IS250
what fresh air ???
Ok so the mileage is good.....and they supposedly don't put out those clouds of smoke......that however does not slove the terrible cancerous stench smelling exhaust they put out.....I think ALL diesels should have the exhaust pipe mounted in front of the car...letting the foul smelling exhaust go in to A/C intake and/or windows of the car its coming from....NOW WHO WANTS ONE ???
not many I bet !!!!
not many I bet !!!!
09-21-2004, 08:55 AM
#12
You will meet death a lot faster from gas engine fumes then diesel engine fumes.
I have a 2003 Dodge Ram CTD (cummins diesel), and I will never go back to a gas motor'd truck if I can help it.
I want a diesel MB so bad I can taste it.
Eric www.installuniversity.com
I have a 2003 Dodge Ram CTD (cummins diesel), and I will never go back to a gas motor'd truck if I can help it.
I want a diesel MB so bad I can taste it.
Eric www.installuniversity.com
09-21-2004, 08:58 AM
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2001 C320ss, 2005 Ford F150 Supercrew, GSXR,
Originally Posted by wizkid
You will meet death a lot faster from gas engine fumes then diesel engine fumes.
I have a 2003 Dodge Ram CTD (cummins diesel), and I will never go back to a gas motor'd truck if I can help it.
I want a diesel MB so bad I can taste it.
Eric www.installuniversity.com
I have a 2003 Dodge Ram CTD (cummins diesel), and I will never go back to a gas motor'd truck if I can help it.
I want a diesel MB so bad I can taste it.
Eric www.installuniversity.com
Sorry Steve
09-21-2004, 09:11 AM
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2003 C230K Sport Coupe, 1986 190E 2.3
Originally Posted by bagwell
Ok so the mileage is good.....and they supposedly don't put out those clouds of smoke......that however does not slove the terrible cancerous stench smelling exhaust they put out.....I think ALL diesels should have the exhaust pipe mounted in front of the car...letting the foul smelling exhaust go in to A/C intake and/or windows of the car its coming from....NOW WHO WANTS ONE ???
not many I bet !!!!
not many I bet !!!!
09-21-2004, 09:41 PM
#15
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some slow@$$diesels
diesels and polution...ever heard of anybody that comitted suicide by letting the diesel engine run in their garage? With a gas engine you are able to kill yourself...with a diesel engine you only end up sick but NOT dead...
DIESELS last longer, less service costs, better mileage...and diesel is somewhat affordeable where as driving a gas engine driven car in teh Netherlands would have made me banktrupt with my excesive friving in the past...
DIESELS RULE!
greetingz,
DIESELS last longer, less service costs, better mileage...and diesel is somewhat affordeable where as driving a gas engine driven car in teh Netherlands would have made me banktrupt with my excesive friving in the past...
DIESELS RULE!
greetingz,
09-21-2004, 09:45 PM
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2003 Citron Green C230KMT
yes diesels do rule, and if i could have gotten a new 203 diesel in the US i would have. i had two diesels and they run for ever.
plus the new diesels arent very noisy, burn as clean or cleaner than gas engines, get 2x as bettwe gas mileage, last a hell of a lot longer, never have to chage the glow plugs as often as you do spark plugs, the benefits go on and on.
plus the new diesels arent very noisy, burn as clean or cleaner than gas engines, get 2x as bettwe gas mileage, last a hell of a lot longer, never have to chage the glow plugs as often as you do spark plugs, the benefits go on and on.
09-21-2004, 10:16 PM
#17
The new diesels don't have glow plugs. At least my cummins turbo diesel does not. It has a grid heating system that works flawlessly. Sub zero temps doesn't even phase it.
One day I will find me a MB with a diesel in it, and I will buy it. Until then, I will have to live with our C240.
Eric
One day I will find me a MB with a diesel in it, and I will buy it. Until then, I will have to live with our C240.
Eric
09-21-2004, 10:41 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by GDawgC220
I believe the new w211 E320 CDI's still have glow plugs and still have to wait for the glow indicator to go out before starting. 
Drove some CDI's last week..guess they pulled the plugs b4 I got their since all I did was get in start the car and
Last edited by respdoc; 09-21-2004 at 10:44 PM.
09-21-2004, 10:44 PM
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Many people are misinformed about Diesel engines and their reputation, etc.
www.dieselforum.org
The site has large quanitites regarding diesels, their misrepresentation, positives as well as negatives.
respdoc-
The CDI's still have glowplugs...technology has changed everything regarding diesels.
www.dieselforum.org
The site has large quanitites regarding diesels, their misrepresentation, positives as well as negatives.
respdoc-
The CDI's still have glowplugs...technology has changed everything regarding diesels.
09-21-2004, 10:46 PM
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'05 A4 1.8TQM6
Originally Posted by respdoc
You must be joking.
Drove some CDI's last week..guess they pulled the plugs b4 I got their since all I did was get in start the car and
Drove some CDI's last week..guess they pulled the plugs b4 I got their since all I did was get in start the car and
09-22-2004, 01:39 AM
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plus even older diesels, if they have been running and you shut off and go to start again you dont necissarily have to wait for them to re-heat. its a good idea to do so, but if you forget, which i did a couple times the car would still start.
the newer diesels probably just have a faster heating process. kinda like a fuel pump priming when you open the door or something. that way you dont have to wait. i dunno, just a guess.
the newer diesels probably just have a faster heating process. kinda like a fuel pump priming when you open the door or something. that way you dont have to wait. i dunno, just a guess.
09-22-2004, 02:32 AM
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2003 C230K Coupe Orion Blue
Restarting diesel
Someone told me once that if you run a Diesel dry, it's not like a gasoline engine where you just dump some fuel into the tank and away you go. You hafta take the engine apart or something? Is this true, and if so, why?
09-22-2004, 07:19 AM
#24
You have to prime the fuel system again. MY Dodge has a hand pump on there in case that ever happens. However, they have the gauge hit the E with 5 + gallons in the tank so if you are half human, you won't run out.
As long as it is above 65 F, I can just turn the key and start. Below 65 F, you have to wait a few seconds before starting. Ambient air temp is what my grid heating system uses as a heat or not to heat rule.
ERic
As long as it is above 65 F, I can just turn the key and start. Below 65 F, you have to wait a few seconds before starting. Ambient air temp is what my grid heating system uses as a heat or not to heat rule.
ERic
09-22-2004, 10:28 PM
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'08 CLK320CDI AMG// '13 E500 Coupe AMG// '17 E350d AMG
I'm also a diesel owner, and new Diesel engines rules!!!! 
With same engine size, diesel are better than petrol.
04 Bmw 530d has the same or better performance than a 530i
04 E320CDI (euro version) ... than a E320
05 Audi A6 3.0TDI ... than a A6 3.2
VW touareg V10TDI has better performance than a Porsche cayenne S
and finnaly a 05 C220CDI has better performance than a 05 c200K and the same of a c230k (coupe or not coupe)
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w203/76702-diesel-speed.html
The fast diesel production car on earth: MB C30CDI AMG
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ht=C30+CDI+AMG
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ht=C30+CDI+AMG
But is not all the performance that matters, the driving pleaser is much better: better engine response since 1500rpm, no need to use gears all the time, no noise, no smoke, more mileage, more torque,turbocharged, more performance, etc
I have a sport coupe 220CDI and its the best car I had to date, I have also petrol cars ( jag xkr, merc Clk 230K) but my car and the two V6 TDI (225 hp and 150hp) audi's I also have are the today use cars.
The EURO fuels are different than the US ones, petrol have more octanes ( up to 100 ) and diesel is very rich, with high levels of cetane to fit to the new diesel engines
Do you like my " arthicle " !?
With same engine size, diesel are better than petrol.
04 Bmw 530d has the same or better performance than a 530i
04 E320CDI (euro version) ... than a E320
05 Audi A6 3.0TDI ... than a A6 3.2
VW touareg V10TDI has better performance than a Porsche cayenne S
and finnaly a 05 C220CDI has better performance than a 05 c200K and the same of a c230k (coupe or not coupe)
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w203/76702-diesel-speed.html
The fast diesel production car on earth: MB C30CDI AMG
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ht=C30+CDI+AMG
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ht=C30+CDI+AMG
But is not all the performance that matters, the driving pleaser is much better: better engine response since 1500rpm, no need to use gears all the time, no noise, no smoke, more mileage, more torque,turbocharged, more performance, etc
I have a sport coupe 220CDI and its the best car I had to date, I have also petrol cars ( jag xkr, merc Clk 230K) but my car and the two V6 TDI (225 hp and 150hp) audi's I also have are the today use cars.
The EURO fuels are different than the US ones, petrol have more octanes ( up to 100 ) and diesel is very rich, with high levels of cetane to fit to the new diesel engines
Do you like my " arthicle " !?
