2009 C-Class
03-04-2008, 05:56 AM
#101
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W204 C220cdi
That may or may not be true, but I think it mostly comes down to cost, with a bit of influencing the reliability ratings.
You pay less for your MB cars than anywhere else in the world, so the only way that MB can keep the margin per unit at an acceptable level is to de-spec the vehicle and build it where labour is cheaper. That's why you don't get all the goodies loaded onto the car as "standard spec" and also why as soon as the SA plant was on-stream producing W204's it's production was allocated to the US market.
Regarding availability of memory seats, keyless go and other features as options, for as many times I've seen posts from Americans on this forum saying that they'd happily spend the extra, I've seen two or three posts saying that at the price point these features should be standard on the C-Class and that it's outrageous that the buyer should have to pay extra for them. The reality is that these features cost money to supply on every vehicle and the sticker price in the USA is just too low to support their inclusion. I'd guess though that if they were offered as options just as many if not more people would be complaining that a loaded C-Class is overpriced. I detect a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation for MBUSA on this one.
Regarding reliability, MB suffered poor ratings in the US market partly because the reliability ratings rank the failure of a tilting door mirror the same as a failure of the alternator. And it doesn't matter whether the tilting mirror was an option or standard equipment, a failure was the same. MB needed to improve their reliability ratings so which feature do they drop? The alternator or the tilting door mirror? Perhaps if your consumer organisations started measuring what's important rather than making important what they can measure (now where have I heard that before?) then maybe MB would look at the options list differently?
Bottom line is that MB wins three times by not offering some of these features in the US market at all. They win because it doesn't dilute their profit per vehicle; they win because it doesn't give people the opportunity to moan that the options are overpriced and they win because there are less things on the car for reliability ratings to measure the failure rate of.
You pay less for your MB cars than anywhere else in the world, so the only way that MB can keep the margin per unit at an acceptable level is to de-spec the vehicle and build it where labour is cheaper. That's why you don't get all the goodies loaded onto the car as "standard spec" and also why as soon as the SA plant was on-stream producing W204's it's production was allocated to the US market.
Regarding availability of memory seats, keyless go and other features as options, for as many times I've seen posts from Americans on this forum saying that they'd happily spend the extra, I've seen two or three posts saying that at the price point these features should be standard on the C-Class and that it's outrageous that the buyer should have to pay extra for them. The reality is that these features cost money to supply on every vehicle and the sticker price in the USA is just too low to support their inclusion. I'd guess though that if they were offered as options just as many if not more people would be complaining that a loaded C-Class is overpriced. I detect a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation for MBUSA on this one.
Regarding reliability, MB suffered poor ratings in the US market partly because the reliability ratings rank the failure of a tilting door mirror the same as a failure of the alternator. And it doesn't matter whether the tilting mirror was an option or standard equipment, a failure was the same. MB needed to improve their reliability ratings so which feature do they drop? The alternator or the tilting door mirror? Perhaps if your consumer organisations started measuring what's important rather than making important what they can measure (now where have I heard that before?) then maybe MB would look at the options list differently?
Bottom line is that MB wins three times by not offering some of these features in the US market at all. They win because it doesn't dilute their profit per vehicle; they win because it doesn't give people the opportunity to moan that the options are overpriced and they win because there are less things on the car for reliability ratings to measure the failure rate of.
03-04-2008, 09:32 AM
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That may or may not be true, but I think it mostly comes down to cost, with a bit of influencing the reliability ratings.
You pay less for your MB cars than anywhere else in the world, so the only way that MB can keep the margin per unit at an acceptable level is to de-spec the vehicle and build it where labour is cheaper. That's why you don't get all the goodies loaded onto the car as "standard spec" and also why as soon as the SA plant was on-stream producing W204's it's production was allocated to the US market.
Regarding availability of memory seats, keyless go and other features as options, for as many times I've seen posts from Americans on this forum saying that they'd happily spend the extra, I've seen two or three posts saying that at the price point these features should be standard on the C-Class and that it's outrageous that the buyer should have to pay extra for them. The reality is that these features cost money to supply on every vehicle and the sticker price in the USA is just too low to support their inclusion. I'd guess though that if they were offered as options just as many if not more people would be complaining that a loaded C-Class is overpriced. I detect a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation for MBUSA on this one.
Regarding reliability, MB suffered poor ratings in the US market partly because the reliability ratings rank the failure of a tilting door mirror the same as a failure of the alternator. And it doesn't matter whether the tilting mirror was an option or standard equipment, a failure was the same. MB needed to improve their reliability ratings so which feature do they drop? The alternator or the tilting door mirror? Perhaps if your consumer organisations started measuring what's important rather than making important what they can measure (now where have I heard that before?) then maybe MB would look at the options list differently?
Bottom line is that MB wins three times by not offering some of these features in the US market at all. They win because it doesn't dilute their profit per vehicle; they win because it doesn't give people the opportunity to moan that the options are overpriced and they win because there are less things on the car for reliability ratings to measure the failure rate of.
You pay less for your MB cars than anywhere else in the world, so the only way that MB can keep the margin per unit at an acceptable level is to de-spec the vehicle and build it where labour is cheaper. That's why you don't get all the goodies loaded onto the car as "standard spec" and also why as soon as the SA plant was on-stream producing W204's it's production was allocated to the US market.
Regarding availability of memory seats, keyless go and other features as options, for as many times I've seen posts from Americans on this forum saying that they'd happily spend the extra, I've seen two or three posts saying that at the price point these features should be standard on the C-Class and that it's outrageous that the buyer should have to pay extra for them. The reality is that these features cost money to supply on every vehicle and the sticker price in the USA is just too low to support their inclusion. I'd guess though that if they were offered as options just as many if not more people would be complaining that a loaded C-Class is overpriced. I detect a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation for MBUSA on this one.
Regarding reliability, MB suffered poor ratings in the US market partly because the reliability ratings rank the failure of a tilting door mirror the same as a failure of the alternator. And it doesn't matter whether the tilting mirror was an option or standard equipment, a failure was the same. MB needed to improve their reliability ratings so which feature do they drop? The alternator or the tilting door mirror? Perhaps if your consumer organisations started measuring what's important rather than making important what they can measure (now where have I heard that before?) then maybe MB would look at the options list differently?
Bottom line is that MB wins three times by not offering some of these features in the US market at all. They win because it doesn't dilute their profit per vehicle; they win because it doesn't give people the opportunity to moan that the options are overpriced and they win because there are less things on the car for reliability ratings to measure the failure rate of.
MB loses and they lose big. MB is starting to get the reputation for being underserved and to underdeliver.
Making these items options in no way increasaes the overall price of the vehicle if they are offered ala carte.
Beyond that your logic as stated is fatally flawed. The options are currently all cars - except for US cars. Unless you're saying that reliability is somehow different in the US, you frankly need to take a very very hard look at your logic. Turn down mirrors currently exist in all other markets - except for the US. Therein lies the reason for my "magical mystical electronic field" comment.
This is pure BS. On top of all else, let's face it. I personally am one of those people who would otherwise have purchased a new C. Now I will absolutely not consider it. It's that simple. Others have echoed that sentiment. It's not a price issue. It's not a reliability issue. However, where it would otherwise have been a slam dunk for them to get my money, they have now forced me into considering the BMW, Audi, Infinity - and actually now the Jag XF. It may very well be MBs loss - for lack of a very simple option offered everywhere else on the planet.
Unless there is that magical mystical electronic field. So I'm under the impression that those who would defend this MB practice must walk around with tin foil hats to protect them from this field.
Last edited by wmhjr; 03-04-2008 at 09:34 AM.
03-04-2008, 03:14 PM
#104
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W204 C220cdi
Well thanks 
I agree that there's no "magical mystical electronic field" involved, but nowhere else in the world do the JD Power or Consumer Reports reliability surveys have as much sway on buyer's opinions of car reliability. And my view is that those reliability reports are historically flawed in their weighting of every component failure as being of equal value. I fancy that my view coincides with that of MB who have thus removed as many non-essential "toys" from the car for the US market as possible.
Regarding pricing, nowhere else in the world do people pay as little for MB cars as they do in the USA, in fact most other markets in the western world pay between 50% and 100% more for the same product. The price differential is too large to be explained by relative volumes or distribution costs and it seriously hurts profitability for MB. BTW of your preferred alternative manufacturers, BMW (unlike MB, a privately held company) are busy laying off 6,000 employees to cut costs, Porche are about to take a majority stake in VAG (another two privately held companies) in a consolidation move and Nissan is part owned by the French manufacturer Renault. Oh, nearly forgot: loss-making Jaguar has just been sold by loss-making Ford to that well respected premium car manufacturer Tata. MB are a publicly quoted company whose premium status was damaged by the ruinous reign of Jurgen Schremp and their "marriage" to Chrysler and they are pulling themselves back up to the top. They've just divested themselves of Chrysler and need to generate funds to invest in new engines and new models.
Add those two things together plus a US dollar that continues to sink like a stone against the Euro and you get what MBUSA are doing with the pricing and options on the W204 as a result. Just wait to see what happens with the new E-Class
Oh, and I don't wear a foil hat either
I agree that there's no "magical mystical electronic field" involved, but nowhere else in the world do the JD Power or Consumer Reports reliability surveys have as much sway on buyer's opinions of car reliability. And my view is that those reliability reports are historically flawed in their weighting of every component failure as being of equal value. I fancy that my view coincides with that of MB who have thus removed as many non-essential "toys" from the car for the US market as possible.
Regarding pricing, nowhere else in the world do people pay as little for MB cars as they do in the USA, in fact most other markets in the western world pay between 50% and 100% more for the same product. The price differential is too large to be explained by relative volumes or distribution costs and it seriously hurts profitability for MB. BTW of your preferred alternative manufacturers, BMW (unlike MB, a privately held company) are busy laying off 6,000 employees to cut costs, Porche are about to take a majority stake in VAG (another two privately held companies) in a consolidation move and Nissan is part owned by the French manufacturer Renault. Oh, nearly forgot: loss-making Jaguar has just been sold by loss-making Ford to that well respected premium car manufacturer Tata. MB are a publicly quoted company whose premium status was damaged by the ruinous reign of Jurgen Schremp and their "marriage" to Chrysler and they are pulling themselves back up to the top. They've just divested themselves of Chrysler and need to generate funds to invest in new engines and new models.
Add those two things together plus a US dollar that continues to sink like a stone against the Euro and you get what MBUSA are doing with the pricing and options on the W204 as a result. Just wait to see what happens with the new E-Class
Oh, and I don't wear a foil hat either
Last edited by st13phil; 03-04-2008 at 03:17 PM.
03-04-2008, 05:02 PM
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And again, it just doesn't make any logical sense.
There is zero cost to offer those options. All R&D and manufacturing costs are sunk. Therefore, at worst MB could offer those options at cost and lose zero - plus such a strategy would not significantly affect pricing. As a matter of fact, you could argue that it would REDUCE costs because of the lower variability in production line changes (as opposed to the wacky strategy they have today). Reducing costs increases margin. Add to that the potential decrease of lost new sales or loss of repeat customers and we have a winner.
Additionally, I completely discount reliability factors as being the root cause for this. If we were just talking about one or two features which have been reported as "troublesome" that would be one thing. However, memory seats as an example are virtually trouble-free options with little maintenance and very high customer satisfaction (other than the fact that MB is the only manufacturer who cannot seem to link the memory function to individual keyfobs).
I further discount reliability because it's quite obvious that in todays world, such features as memory seats are far from being unreliable. Infinity - at this point being cited as the most reliable of the luxury market by most reports (including both JD Power and Consumer Reports) doesn't seem to have any issue with any of these or more features. Neither does any of the other "luxury" segment manufacturers.
Add to this that other features which HAVE been somewhat more troublesome (such as the pano roof and airmatic) are still alive and well.
I'm sorry, but I can't see any other logic other than deliberate marketing behind this. Furthermore, when I sent my feedback to MB about some of these items and we had a dialogue, they directly pointed to marketing as the prime reason for the lack of these features. They claimed it was based on what "customers want" as perceived by MB. So, either they are incompetent at delivering reasonable quality features which are now considered to be "routine" (such as memory seats) in mid to luxury segments, or it's simply marketing at its worst.
If you believe it's the former then you have to believe that MB isn't capable of delivering quality and reliability in the luxury segment. If you believe it's the latter (as I do) then you only have to believe that MB-USA is arrogant. I personally feel their quality and reliability is pretty good. So.....
There is zero cost to offer those options. All R&D and manufacturing costs are sunk. Therefore, at worst MB could offer those options at cost and lose zero - plus such a strategy would not significantly affect pricing. As a matter of fact, you could argue that it would REDUCE costs because of the lower variability in production line changes (as opposed to the wacky strategy they have today). Reducing costs increases margin. Add to that the potential decrease of lost new sales or loss of repeat customers and we have a winner.
Additionally, I completely discount reliability factors as being the root cause for this. If we were just talking about one or two features which have been reported as "troublesome" that would be one thing. However, memory seats as an example are virtually trouble-free options with little maintenance and very high customer satisfaction (other than the fact that MB is the only manufacturer who cannot seem to link the memory function to individual keyfobs).
I further discount reliability because it's quite obvious that in todays world, such features as memory seats are far from being unreliable. Infinity - at this point being cited as the most reliable of the luxury market by most reports (including both JD Power and Consumer Reports) doesn't seem to have any issue with any of these or more features. Neither does any of the other "luxury" segment manufacturers.
Add to this that other features which HAVE been somewhat more troublesome (such as the pano roof and airmatic) are still alive and well.
I'm sorry, but I can't see any other logic other than deliberate marketing behind this. Furthermore, when I sent my feedback to MB about some of these items and we had a dialogue, they directly pointed to marketing as the prime reason for the lack of these features. They claimed it was based on what "customers want" as perceived by MB. So, either they are incompetent at delivering reasonable quality features which are now considered to be "routine" (such as memory seats) in mid to luxury segments, or it's simply marketing at its worst.
If you believe it's the former then you have to believe that MB isn't capable of delivering quality and reliability in the luxury segment. If you believe it's the latter (as I do) then you only have to believe that MB-USA is arrogant. I personally feel their quality and reliability is pretty good. So.....
03-04-2008, 05:07 PM
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S550, ML63 AMG
so back on topic....has anyone heard anything for the '09 model yet. My dealer said they don't know anything as of yet, but hopefully will soon. Some '09 cars are already being built, so he said the info the C should come soon. Any help appreciated because I want to know if there are going to be any changes and to wait or not. Thanks.
03-05-2008, 06:38 PM
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MY2001 C320
I hope MB Canada will bring Intelligent Lighting System, Parktronic, Presafe and knee airbag that enhance the safety package. And it would be nice if they bring Advanced Agility.
Other neat features in European W204 that is not coming stateside:
Flashing brake lamps during hard braking with hazard lamps on if braking from 70km/h and above to a standstill.
I bought W203 not for prestige but safety. The BAS and air curtain were state of art back and leads the competition back in 2001. The W204 safety package available in North America (neckpro, adaptive braking that includes brake prime, brake dry and hill hold) is at par with leading competitors (BMW, Volvo) in this field, but sadly Germany denies us the state of the art safety package (Presafe, ILS, knee airbag) available in Europe.
And Yankees are still fighting for mem seats, tilt down mirror and keyless go...
Other neat features in European W204 that is not coming stateside:
Flashing brake lamps during hard braking with hazard lamps on if braking from 70km/h and above to a standstill.
I bought W203 not for prestige but safety. The BAS and air curtain were state of art back and leads the competition back in 2001. The W204 safety package available in North America (neckpro, adaptive braking that includes brake prime, brake dry and hill hold) is at par with leading competitors (BMW, Volvo) in this field, but sadly Germany denies us the state of the art safety package (Presafe, ILS, knee airbag) available in Europe.
And Yankees are still fighting for mem seats, tilt down mirror and keyless go...
Last edited by QQQ; 03-05-2008 at 06:48 PM.
03-06-2008, 06:05 AM
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c220 cdi sport
I hope MB Canada will bring Intelligent Lighting System, Parktronic, Presafe and knee airbag that enhance the safety package. And it would be nice if they bring Advanced Agility.
Other neat features in European W204 that is not coming stateside:
Flashing brake lamps during hard braking with hazard lamps on if braking from 70km/h and above to a standstill.
I bought W203 not for prestige but safety. The BAS and air curtain were state of art back and leads the competition back in 2001. The W204 safety package available in North America (neckpro, adaptive braking that includes brake prime, brake dry and hill hold) is at par with leading competitors (BMW, Volvo) in this field, but sadly Germany denies us the state of the art safety package (Presafe, ILS, knee airbag) available in Europe.
And Yankees are still fighting for mem seats, tilt down mirror and keyless go...
Other neat features in European W204 that is not coming stateside:
Flashing brake lamps during hard braking with hazard lamps on if braking from 70km/h and above to a standstill.
I bought W203 not for prestige but safety. The BAS and air curtain were state of art back and leads the competition back in 2001. The W204 safety package available in North America (neckpro, adaptive braking that includes brake prime, brake dry and hill hold) is at par with leading competitors (BMW, Volvo) in this field, but sadly Germany denies us the state of the art safety package (Presafe, ILS, knee airbag) available in Europe.
And Yankees are still fighting for mem seats, tilt down mirror and keyless go...
at the top of our list on purchasing a new car was: electric memory seats - minimum driver seat. MB UK make you have both passenger and drivers. After this was safety and then fuel efficiency.
There is no chance that we would have brought the W204 if it had not been for the option of electric seats. We have two cars and have no problem in the second town car having no electric memory seats, but we needed the electric seats as it's a comfort point. it doesnt matter whether you can adjust the seats manually, somehow my body reacts much better to a pre-set seat. i dont know why or how.
pre-safe and knee bags. Absolutely, most euro cars on this W204 have these now. i dont think MB UK would have got away with not having them. after all they have to compete with Lexus and Jaguar who do.
tilt-down mirrors - i dont think this would have stopped me buying teh W204, but would have been very dissapointed if it didnt have this. i mean it really is not big deal. Citreon offer gimmicks to, on their $15,000 cars. for example, the radio goes into mute when the reverse gear is selected. a nice touch. dont know about you but i tend to turn the radio down when reversing...not sure why but probably so i can hear if i hit someone or something.
flashing brake lights. not convinced by this. given that we dont have 'red' lights for hazard lights i'm not sure how much this would help. In fact, if i saw this on another car it may make me think there is something wrong with teh car ahead. Though MB could counter that is exactly the point.
intelligent lights -again the competition is offering these so MB would have to.
If anything i was a little dissapionted that there werent some new features/options given the advantgarde status of MB. however, i've grown up (a little!
and boys toys are nice... but not essential. phew
Last edited by Mr Purple; 03-06-2008 at 06:08 AM.
03-07-2008, 12:37 AM
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C350
And again, it just doesn't make any logical sense.
There is zero cost to offer those options. All R&D and manufacturing costs are sunk. Therefore, at worst MB could offer those options at cost and lose zero - plus such a strategy would not significantly affect pricing. As a matter of fact, you could argue that it would REDUCE costs because of the lower variability in production line changes (as opposed to the wacky strategy they have today). Reducing costs increases margin. Add to that the potential decrease of lost new sales or loss of repeat customers and we have a winner.
Additionally, I completely discount reliability factors as being the root cause for this. If we were just talking about one or two features which have been reported as "troublesome" that would be one thing. However, memory seats as an example are virtually trouble-free options with little maintenance and very high customer satisfaction (other than the fact that MB is the only manufacturer who cannot seem to link the memory function to individual keyfobs).
I further discount reliability because it's quite obvious that in todays world, such features as memory seats are far from being unreliable. Infinity - at this point being cited as the most reliable of the luxury market by most reports (including both JD Power and Consumer Reports) doesn't seem to have any issue with any of these or more features. Neither does any of the other "luxury" segment manufacturers.
Add to this that other features which HAVE been somewhat more troublesome (such as the pano roof and airmatic) are still alive and well.
I'm sorry, but I can't see any other logic other than deliberate marketing behind this. Furthermore, when I sent my feedback to MB about some of these items and we had a dialogue, they directly pointed to marketing as the prime reason for the lack of these features. They claimed it was based on what "customers want" as perceived by MB. So, either they are incompetent at delivering reasonable quality features which are now considered to be "routine" (such as memory seats) in mid to luxury segments, or it's simply marketing at its worst.
If you believe it's the former then you have to believe that MB isn't capable of delivering quality and reliability in the luxury segment. If you believe it's the latter (as I do) then you only have to believe that MB-USA is arrogant. I personally feel their quality and reliability is pretty good. So.....
There is zero cost to offer those options. All R&D and manufacturing costs are sunk. Therefore, at worst MB could offer those options at cost and lose zero - plus such a strategy would not significantly affect pricing. As a matter of fact, you could argue that it would REDUCE costs because of the lower variability in production line changes (as opposed to the wacky strategy they have today). Reducing costs increases margin. Add to that the potential decrease of lost new sales or loss of repeat customers and we have a winner.
Additionally, I completely discount reliability factors as being the root cause for this. If we were just talking about one or two features which have been reported as "troublesome" that would be one thing. However, memory seats as an example are virtually trouble-free options with little maintenance and very high customer satisfaction (other than the fact that MB is the only manufacturer who cannot seem to link the memory function to individual keyfobs).
I further discount reliability because it's quite obvious that in todays world, such features as memory seats are far from being unreliable. Infinity - at this point being cited as the most reliable of the luxury market by most reports (including both JD Power and Consumer Reports) doesn't seem to have any issue with any of these or more features. Neither does any of the other "luxury" segment manufacturers.
Add to this that other features which HAVE been somewhat more troublesome (such as the pano roof and airmatic) are still alive and well.
I'm sorry, but I can't see any other logic other than deliberate marketing behind this. Furthermore, when I sent my feedback to MB about some of these items and we had a dialogue, they directly pointed to marketing as the prime reason for the lack of these features. They claimed it was based on what "customers want" as perceived by MB. So, either they are incompetent at delivering reasonable quality features which are now considered to be "routine" (such as memory seats) in mid to luxury segments, or it's simply marketing at its worst.
If you believe it's the former then you have to believe that MB isn't capable of delivering quality and reliability in the luxury segment. If you believe it's the latter (as I do) then you only have to believe that MB-USA is arrogant. I personally feel their quality and reliability is pretty good. So.....
The real issue has everything to do with how the C class is positioned in the US as opposed to the rest of the world. In europe for example, small cars are far more popular across the board because the costs of owning and driving a mid to large sized car are very high. In europe you see alot of well to do professionals driving the C-Class. In the US the same class of professionals start at the E class and some go for the S class. It is very difficult (expensive) to own an S class in europe and on the same token the C class is seen as a very respectable car to drive and because of this the feature set is catered to the prospective buyer which means more features for rest of world buyers.
This is not the case in the US where the C class is considered the entry level or 'poor mans mercedes' (dont get mad, I own one too...) And is positioned against the same types of automobiles which to be honest other automakers dont make alot of profit on. So mercedes to position against these cars has to pull features form the car to bring the price in line. But why cant they just have the features at least available, right? because they would need to include the additional harnessing and connectors as well as additional fascia and trim panels and all this costs considerable money for them to implement whether they sell alot or a few.. Most people never think about the costs of even setting up an option before one piece is sold and it is there and it is a decent amount and not negligible as you might think.
On top of this C class owners tend to be *very* price conscious relating to options as well. I had a talk with the f&o guy at the dealer a few weeks back asking about what accessories were being sold on the new c class and his response was that the new C had the lowest sales of options and add-ons of *any* model he had seen in the past two years. I got a chance to look at the average price of add-ons by model and I was pretty amazed at how low it was compared to the other model lines. I cant remember the exact numbers but it was something like 60% less than E class and 80% less than S class. He basically mirrored what st13phil said... that while americans talk the talk about being happy to pay for features, the numbers show that thats anything but the case...
03-07-2008, 10:51 AM
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Well thanks
I agree that there's no "magical mystical electronic field" involved, but nowhere else in the world do the JD Power or Consumer Reports reliability surveys have as much sway on buyer's opinions of car reliability. And my view is that those reliability reports are historically flawed in their weighting of every component failure as being of equal value. I fancy that my view coincides with that of MB who have thus removed as many non-essential "toys" from the car for the US market as possible.
Regarding pricing, nowhere else in the world do people pay as little for MB cars as they do in the USA, in fact most other markets in the western world pay between 50% and 100% more for the same product. The price differential is too large to be explained by relative volumes or distribution costs and it seriously hurts profitability for MB. BTW of your preferred alternative manufacturers, BMW (unlike MB, a privately held company) are busy laying off 6,000 employees to cut costs, Porche are about to take a majority stake in VAG (another two privately held companies) in a consolidation move and Nissan is part owned by the French manufacturer Renault. Oh, nearly forgot: loss-making Jaguar has just been sold by loss-making Ford to that well respected premium car manufacturer Tata. MB are a publicly quoted company whose premium status was damaged by the ruinous reign of Jurgen Schremp and their "marriage" to Chrysler and they are pulling themselves back up to the top. They've just divested themselves of Chrysler and need to generate funds to invest in new engines and new models.
Add those two things together plus a US dollar that continues to sink like a stone against the Euro and you get what MBUSA are doing with the pricing and options on the W204 as a result. Just wait to see what happens with the new E-Class
Oh, and I don't wear a foil hat either
I agree that there's no "magical mystical electronic field" involved, but nowhere else in the world do the JD Power or Consumer Reports reliability surveys have as much sway on buyer's opinions of car reliability. And my view is that those reliability reports are historically flawed in their weighting of every component failure as being of equal value. I fancy that my view coincides with that of MB who have thus removed as many non-essential "toys" from the car for the US market as possible.
Regarding pricing, nowhere else in the world do people pay as little for MB cars as they do in the USA, in fact most other markets in the western world pay between 50% and 100% more for the same product. The price differential is too large to be explained by relative volumes or distribution costs and it seriously hurts profitability for MB. BTW of your preferred alternative manufacturers, BMW (unlike MB, a privately held company) are busy laying off 6,000 employees to cut costs, Porche are about to take a majority stake in VAG (another two privately held companies) in a consolidation move and Nissan is part owned by the French manufacturer Renault. Oh, nearly forgot: loss-making Jaguar has just been sold by loss-making Ford to that well respected premium car manufacturer Tata. MB are a publicly quoted company whose premium status was damaged by the ruinous reign of Jurgen Schremp and their "marriage" to Chrysler and they are pulling themselves back up to the top. They've just divested themselves of Chrysler and need to generate funds to invest in new engines and new models.
Add those two things together plus a US dollar that continues to sink like a stone against the Euro and you get what MBUSA are doing with the pricing and options on the W204 as a result. Just wait to see what happens with the new E-Class
Oh, and I don't wear a foil hat either
03-07-2008, 10:56 AM
#113
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I agree with your general thinking, but i dont think you understand the reasonign behind the lack of features: Its not that adding tilt mirrors creates a reliability issue as mercedes has very few service issues with things like mirrors and seats.
The real issue has everything to do with how the C class is positioned in the US as opposed to the rest of the world. In europe for example, small cars are far more popular across the board because the costs of owning and driving a mid to large sized car are very high. In europe you see alot of well to do professionals driving the C-Class. In the US the same class of professionals start at the E class and some go for the S class. It is very difficult (expensive) to own an S class in europe and on the same token the C class is seen as a very respectable car to drive and because of this the feature set is catered to the prospective buyer which means more features for rest of world buyers.
This is not the case in the US where the C class is considered the entry level or 'poor mans mercedes' (dont get mad, I own one too...) And is positioned against the same types of automobiles which to be honest other automakers dont make alot of profit on. So mercedes to position against these cars has to pull features form the car to bring the price in line. But why cant they just have the features at least available, right? because they would need to include the additional harnessing and connectors as well as additional fascia and trim panels and all this costs considerable money for them to implement whether they sell alot or a few.. Most people never think about the costs of even setting up an option before one piece is sold and it is there and it is a decent amount and not negligible as you might think.
On top of this C class owners tend to be *very* price conscious relating to options as well. I had a talk with the f&o guy at the dealer a few weeks back asking about what accessories were being sold on the new c class and his response was that the new C had the lowest sales of options and add-ons of *any* model he had seen in the past two years. I got a chance to look at the average price of add-ons by model and I was pretty amazed at how low it was compared to the other model lines. I cant remember the exact numbers but it was something like 60% less than E class and 80% less than S class. He basically mirrored what st13phil said... that while americans talk the talk about being happy to pay for features, the numbers show that thats anything but the case...
The real issue has everything to do with how the C class is positioned in the US as opposed to the rest of the world. In europe for example, small cars are far more popular across the board because the costs of owning and driving a mid to large sized car are very high. In europe you see alot of well to do professionals driving the C-Class. In the US the same class of professionals start at the E class and some go for the S class. It is very difficult (expensive) to own an S class in europe and on the same token the C class is seen as a very respectable car to drive and because of this the feature set is catered to the prospective buyer which means more features for rest of world buyers.
This is not the case in the US where the C class is considered the entry level or 'poor mans mercedes' (dont get mad, I own one too...) And is positioned against the same types of automobiles which to be honest other automakers dont make alot of profit on. So mercedes to position against these cars has to pull features form the car to bring the price in line. But why cant they just have the features at least available, right? because they would need to include the additional harnessing and connectors as well as additional fascia and trim panels and all this costs considerable money for them to implement whether they sell alot or a few.. Most people never think about the costs of even setting up an option before one piece is sold and it is there and it is a decent amount and not negligible as you might think.
On top of this C class owners tend to be *very* price conscious relating to options as well. I had a talk with the f&o guy at the dealer a few weeks back asking about what accessories were being sold on the new c class and his response was that the new C had the lowest sales of options and add-ons of *any* model he had seen in the past two years. I got a chance to look at the average price of add-ons by model and I was pretty amazed at how low it was compared to the other model lines. I cant remember the exact numbers but it was something like 60% less than E class and 80% less than S class. He basically mirrored what st13phil said... that while americans talk the talk about being happy to pay for features, the numbers show that thats anything but the case...
Again, there are significant logic flaws in this argument. Just to name a few...
There is zero cost for this "additional wiring and fascia". It already exists. And frankly, much of it is already in the car right now. So you can completely remove the "cost" factor as it clearly and absolutely does not apply - period. Let me be more clear. There is absolutely NO savings whatsoever for MB in not implementing features in the US which are available in Canada. And as stated before, from a manufacturing and supply chain perspective, there may actually be savings. Most people fail to recognize the additional cost incurred by variation in product. Because the US C is so limited, it requires completely different marketing and build sheets. Simply mirroring the Canadian version (or combining them) would save money.
The logic about the price point for the consumer being responsible for this is equally flawed. On this forum alone, a number of people have stated quite simply that they have ignored the C because of the lack of options (myself included). Furthermore, there is another reason. There are extremely few "options" available on the C. You can essentially get P1, P2, and Multimedia. Not really much (other than pano) beyond that. I've never, ever seen an '08 C without at least P1. That being the case, how in the world can you say that options are not being selected? If you don't make them available, then OBVIOUSLY they can't select them. There is a very large price point difference when you jump from P1 to P2, and then when you add Multimedia - because they are bundled. On top of that, I've worked with 4 dealers over the past 2 months during my search for a new vehicle. They are selling about 60% with Multimedia, and about 50% with P2. 100% with at least P1. Clearly this shows that the idea that people will not pay for options is completely false.
Also, the C may be the MB "entry level" but it is NOT an "entry level" car (considering price) compared to the rest of the US market. If MB wants to play in this game, then they need to play. Otherwise, just stay home. I cannot believe adding just memory seats would introduce such sales risk to the C in the US. No way.
03-07-2008, 11:17 AM
#114
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C300 4Matic Sport, P1, iPod
03-07-2008, 11:34 AM
#115
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Again, there are significant logic flaws in this argument. Just to name a few...
The logic about the price point for the consumer being responsible for this is equally flawed. On this forum alone, a number of people have stated quite simply that they have ignored the C because of the lack of options (myself included). Furthermore, there is another reason. There are extremely few "options" available on the C. You can essentially get P1, P2, and Multimedia. Not really much (other than pano) beyond that. I've never, ever seen an '08 C without at least P1. That being the case, how in the world can you say that options are not being selected? If you don't make them available, then OBVIOUSLY they can't select them. There is a very large price point difference when you jump from P1 to P2, and then when you add Multimedia - because they are bundled. On top of that, I've worked with 4 dealers over the past 2 months during my search for a new vehicle. They are selling about 60% with Multimedia, and about 50% with P2. 100% with at least P1. Clearly this shows that the idea that people will not pay for options is completely false.
Also, the C may be the MB "entry level" but it is NOT an "entry level" car (considering price) compared to the rest of the US market. If MB wants to play in this game, then they need to play. Otherwise, just stay home. I cannot believe adding just memory seats would introduce such sales risk to the C in the US. No way.
The logic about the price point for the consumer being responsible for this is equally flawed. On this forum alone, a number of people have stated quite simply that they have ignored the C because of the lack of options (myself included). Furthermore, there is another reason. There are extremely few "options" available on the C. You can essentially get P1, P2, and Multimedia. Not really much (other than pano) beyond that. I've never, ever seen an '08 C without at least P1. That being the case, how in the world can you say that options are not being selected? If you don't make them available, then OBVIOUSLY they can't select them. There is a very large price point difference when you jump from P1 to P2, and then when you add Multimedia - because they are bundled. On top of that, I've worked with 4 dealers over the past 2 months during my search for a new vehicle. They are selling about 60% with Multimedia, and about 50% with P2. 100% with at least P1. Clearly this shows that the idea that people will not pay for options is completely false.
Also, the C may be the MB "entry level" but it is NOT an "entry level" car (considering price) compared to the rest of the US market. If MB wants to play in this game, then they need to play. Otherwise, just stay home. I cannot believe adding just memory seats would introduce such sales risk to the C in the US. No way.
First of all, the 60%mm, 50%p2 and 100%p1... what is that? the number of composition of sales total sales figure? or sales rate? ie, I sell 1 out of 2 cars in inventory for car w/p2, hence 50% sales?? Most of the dealership I talked to almost has no p2 in stock, they only do p2 on-order. Most of the car come with p1 because of the leasing deal that MBUSA is pushing. P1 is the "standard" package in those lease deals. btw, the $ difference is not alot, about $1400 difference but it is alot for what you are getting for that 1400. MM, however, really does represent a huge price point jump, at $3k
There is zero cost for this "additional wiring and fascia". It already exists. And frankly, much of it is already in the car right now. So you can completely remove the "cost" factor as it clearly and absolutely does not apply - period. Let me be more clear. There is absolutely NO savings whatsoever for MB in not implementing features in the US which are available in Canada.
As for whether c-class is an MB "entry-level car", it certainly is for MBUSA. It is the best selling mercedes in its line up and the statement of "for ppl who wants a benz but can't afford the goods" is also fair. MBUSA is playing very well in this market as the current c-class sales figure it up while most of the domestic and japanese car makers are down in sales (USA)
Could MBUSA sold more w204 had it provided more options, probably. But I doubt much of that will change since sales are great. And, as marketing stragedy, introducing new options would give the illusion of an "upgrade" as the years progresses.
so, are both arguments flawed? no, they are not because we simply do not understand the REAL reason behind MBUSA's decision for lack of options. We can guess and argue based on a pretense, until some authority confirms MBUSA's thinking behind all these decision makings (can anyone say... bad focus group?), such arguments are simply just opinions. And we are all entitled to them.
edit: oh ya, I 100% agree with you that MBUSA is arrogant and they certainly have a genius at their marketing dept. In my opinion, they do not deserve to helm the US markets.
Last edited by webada; 03-07-2008 at 11:44 AM.
03-07-2008, 12:37 PM
#116
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W204 C220cdi
Apologies - my bad - must have been an age-related brain fart 
What I meant to say was that it has a major, but no longer majority, private shareholding totalling > 46% of the common shares concentrated in three individuals: Stefan & Johanna Quandt (34% between them) and Susanne Klatten who holds a further 12.5%. These three have massive control over the company between them.
What I meant to say was that it has a major, but no longer majority, private shareholding totalling > 46% of the common shares concentrated in three individuals: Stefan & Johanna Quandt (34% between them) and Susanne Klatten who holds a further 12.5%. These three have massive control over the company between them.
Last edited by st13phil; 03-07-2008 at 12:45 PM.
03-07-2008, 01:05 PM
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I agree with you that adding just memory seats would NOT introduce reliability rating issues and sales risks for the C in US but the "arguments" are not FLAWED.
First of all, the 60%mm, 50%p2 and 100%p1... what is that? the number of composition of sales total sales figure? or sales rate? ie, I sell 1 out of 2 cars in inventory for car w/p2, hence 50% sales?? Most of the dealership I talked to almost has no p2 in stock, they only do p2 on-order. Most of the car come with p1 because of the leasing deal that MBUSA is pushing. P1 is the "standard" package in those lease deals. btw, the $ difference is not alot, about $1400 difference but it is alot for what you are getting for that 1400. MM, however, really does represent a huge price point jump, at $3k
You forgot manpower. It costs MBUSA/dealership to train those dealers on the options available. Recover from the mistakes on orders those with fat fingers...... Obviously the available options on w203 is too much for those dealers.
As for whether c-class is an MB "entry-level car", it certainly is for MBUSA. It is the best selling mercedes in its line up and the statement of "for ppl who wants a benz but can't afford the goods" is also fair. MBUSA is playing very well in this market as the current c-class sales figure it up while most of the domestic and japanese car makers are down in sales (USA)
Could MBUSA sold more w204 had it provided more options, probably. But I doubt much of that will change since sales are great. And, as marketing stragedy, introducing new options would give the illusion of an "upgrade" as the years progresses.
so, are both arguments flawed? no, they are not because we simply do not understand the REAL reason behind MBUSA's decision for lack of options. We can guess and argue based on a pretense, until some authority confirms MBUSA's thinking behind all these decision makings (can anyone say... bad focus group?), such arguments are simply just opinions. And we are all entitled to them.
edit: oh ya, I 100% agree with you that MBUSA is arrogant and they certainly have a genius at their marketing dept. In my opinion, they do not deserve to helm the US markets.
First of all, the 60%mm, 50%p2 and 100%p1... what is that? the number of composition of sales total sales figure? or sales rate? ie, I sell 1 out of 2 cars in inventory for car w/p2, hence 50% sales?? Most of the dealership I talked to almost has no p2 in stock, they only do p2 on-order. Most of the car come with p1 because of the leasing deal that MBUSA is pushing. P1 is the "standard" package in those lease deals. btw, the $ difference is not alot, about $1400 difference but it is alot for what you are getting for that 1400. MM, however, really does represent a huge price point jump, at $3k
You forgot manpower. It costs MBUSA/dealership to train those dealers on the options available. Recover from the mistakes on orders those with fat fingers...... Obviously the available options on w203 is too much for those dealers.
As for whether c-class is an MB "entry-level car", it certainly is for MBUSA. It is the best selling mercedes in its line up and the statement of "for ppl who wants a benz but can't afford the goods" is also fair. MBUSA is playing very well in this market as the current c-class sales figure it up while most of the domestic and japanese car makers are down in sales (USA)
Could MBUSA sold more w204 had it provided more options, probably. But I doubt much of that will change since sales are great. And, as marketing stragedy, introducing new options would give the illusion of an "upgrade" as the years progresses.
so, are both arguments flawed? no, they are not because we simply do not understand the REAL reason behind MBUSA's decision for lack of options. We can guess and argue based on a pretense, until some authority confirms MBUSA's thinking behind all these decision makings (can anyone say... bad focus group?), such arguments are simply just opinions. And we are all entitled to them.
edit: oh ya, I 100% agree with you that MBUSA is arrogant and they certainly have a genius at their marketing dept. In my opinion, they do not deserve to helm the US markets.
Nope - again I believe you are very wrong. First of all, the MB technicians are ALREADY trained on that technology. So, manpower is not an option - unless you believe that they have somehow created a completely new technology for memory seats. They have not. Your statement that "obviously the available options is too much for dealers" is patently false and is without merit. On what do you base that? Only on your own belief that it is due to cost of support that is creating this issue. Unfortunately we do not share that belief - and frankly I can't understand the logic behind it. You would have us believe that Canadian techs must be able to digest this "new knowledge" faster and cheaper than US techs. Hmmmm.
Are C class sales up? Sure. And? What correlation does that have to anything? Would they have been up even more with at least a limited increase in options? Sure.
Take a look at inventories around here. You'll see P1 and P2 C's, about half of them having MM. That's pretty simple - and pretty simply discounts the idea that people wouldn't pay for the options. So you believe it's more likely that people will pay $1k for pano roof or $650 for teleaid, but won't pay for memory seats? Or they'll pay $1500 for leather but not memory seats? Really? Are you quite sure? $680 for lighted door sills or $730 for the wood wheel but not memory seats? I'd be willing to bet some very serious money that this is not true.
03-07-2008, 01:14 PM
#118
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Nope - again I believe you are very wrong. First of all, the MB technicians are ALREADY trained on that technology. So, manpower is not an option - unless you believe that they have somehow created a completely new technology for memory seats. They have not. Your statement that "obviously the available options is too much for dealers" is patently false and is without merit. On what do you base that? Only on your own belief that it is due to cost of support that is creating this issue. Unfortunately we do not share that belief - and frankly I can't understand the logic behind it. You would have us believe that Canadian techs must be able to digest this "new knowledge" faster and cheaper than US techs. Hmmmm.
Are C class sales up? Sure. And? What correlation does that have to anything? Would they have been up even more with at least a limited increase in options? Sure.
Take a look at inventories around here. You'll see P1 and P2 C's, about half of them having MM. That's pretty simple - and pretty simply discounts the idea that people wouldn't pay for the options. So you believe it's more likely that people will pay $1k for pano roof or $650 for teleaid, but won't pay for memory seats? Or they'll pay $1500 for leather but not memory seats? Really? Are you quite sure? $680 for lighted door sills or $730 for the wood wheel but not memory seats? I'd be willing to bet some very serious money that this is not true.
Are C class sales up? Sure. And? What correlation does that have to anything? Would they have been up even more with at least a limited increase in options? Sure.
Take a look at inventories around here. You'll see P1 and P2 C's, about half of them having MM. That's pretty simple - and pretty simply discounts the idea that people wouldn't pay for the options. So you believe it's more likely that people will pay $1k for pano roof or $650 for teleaid, but won't pay for memory seats? Or they'll pay $1500 for leather but not memory seats? Really? Are you quite sure? $680 for lighted door sills or $730 for the wood wheel but not memory seats? I'd be willing to bet some very serious money that this is not true.
Where is around here? I saw inventory in 3 different dealers, 80% unsold c300 are with P1 no mm.
So who do you think take credit for C-sales going up? Marketing? Engineering? Sales? Ofcourse there is correlation.
Edit: oh ya, I never mentioned ppl wouldn't pay for options. you do know its different poster right? Again, read and understand before you judge or do you just like to argue and wants to be right all the time?
Last edited by webada; 03-07-2008 at 01:20 PM.
03-07-2008, 02:05 PM
#119
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Wow, You should really read posts with unbias and clear mind. I guess sarcasims are sometimes lost in translation.... It was a joke about MB dealers, I mentioned nothing about technicians and technology.
Where is around here? I saw inventory in 3 different dealers, 80% unsold c300 are with P1 no mm.
So who do you think take credit for C-sales going up? Marketing? Engineering? Sales? Ofcourse there is correlation.
Edit: oh ya, I never mentioned ppl wouldn't pay for options. you do know its different poster right? Again, read and understand before you judge or do you just like to argue and wants to be right all the time?
Where is around here? I saw inventory in 3 different dealers, 80% unsold c300 are with P1 no mm.
So who do you think take credit for C-sales going up? Marketing? Engineering? Sales? Ofcourse there is correlation.
Edit: oh ya, I never mentioned ppl wouldn't pay for options. you do know its different poster right? Again, read and understand before you judge or do you just like to argue and wants to be right all the time?
I think the really nice C exterior as well as the heavy marketing campaign are what is driving the increased sales.
"Around here" is SW PA. However, it also includes dealerships in NY, NC and OH I talked to. When I eliminated the C from consideration I continued looking for an E (which I'm picking up a week from today). The "hot sellers" seem to be either P1 w/MM or P2 w/MM. Seems as though there hasn't been much interest in one with neither P1 or P2. As mentioned, MM is a bit different because of the hefty price tag on it. But, it still gets a ton of interest here.
Please don't take my comments the wrong way - I apologize if you were somehow insulted and honestly didn't read the sarcasm into it. I just strongly believe that attitudes like some of the folks on this board who want to try and rationalize what is clearly a flawed strategy (from the consumer perspective, right) in favor of defending some mystical logic on MB's part lends itself to a continuation of disenfranchisement by MB.
Last edited by wmhjr; 03-07-2008 at 02:08 PM.
03-07-2008, 05:07 PM
#120
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C350
Again, there are significant logic flaws in this argument. Just to name a few...
There is zero cost for this "additional wiring and fascia". It already exists. And frankly, much of it is already in the car right now. So you can completely remove the "cost" factor as it clearly and absolutely does not apply - period. Let me be more clear. There is absolutely NO savings whatsoever for MB in not implementing features in the US which are available in Canada. And as stated before, from a manufacturing and supply chain perspective, there may actually be savings. Most people fail to recognize the additional cost incurred by variation in product. Because the US C is so limited, it requires completely different marketing and build sheets. Simply mirroring the Canadian version (or combining them) would save money.
The logic about the price point for the consumer being responsible for this is equally flawed. On this forum alone, a number of people have stated quite simply that they have ignored the C because of the lack of options (myself included). Furthermore, there is another reason. There are extremely few "options" available on the C. You can essentially get P1, P2, and Multimedia. Not really much (other than pano) beyond that. I've never, ever seen an '08 C without at least P1. That being the case, how in the world can you say that options are not being selected? If you don't make them available, then OBVIOUSLY they can't select them. There is a very large price point difference when you jump from P1 to P2, and then when you add Multimedia - because they are bundled. On top of that, I've worked with 4 dealers over the past 2 months during my search for a new vehicle. They are selling about 60% with Multimedia, and about 50% with P2. 100% with at least P1. Clearly this shows that the idea that people will not pay for options is completely false.
Also, the C may be the MB "entry level" but it is NOT an "entry level" car (considering price) compared to the rest of the US market. If MB wants to play in this game, then they need to play. Otherwise, just stay home. I cannot believe adding just memory seats would introduce such sales risk to the C in the US. No way.
There is zero cost for this "additional wiring and fascia". It already exists. And frankly, much of it is already in the car right now. So you can completely remove the "cost" factor as it clearly and absolutely does not apply - period. Let me be more clear. There is absolutely NO savings whatsoever for MB in not implementing features in the US which are available in Canada. And as stated before, from a manufacturing and supply chain perspective, there may actually be savings. Most people fail to recognize the additional cost incurred by variation in product. Because the US C is so limited, it requires completely different marketing and build sheets. Simply mirroring the Canadian version (or combining them) would save money.
The logic about the price point for the consumer being responsible for this is equally flawed. On this forum alone, a number of people have stated quite simply that they have ignored the C because of the lack of options (myself included). Furthermore, there is another reason. There are extremely few "options" available on the C. You can essentially get P1, P2, and Multimedia. Not really much (other than pano) beyond that. I've never, ever seen an '08 C without at least P1. That being the case, how in the world can you say that options are not being selected? If you don't make them available, then OBVIOUSLY they can't select them. There is a very large price point difference when you jump from P1 to P2, and then when you add Multimedia - because they are bundled. On top of that, I've worked with 4 dealers over the past 2 months during my search for a new vehicle. They are selling about 60% with Multimedia, and about 50% with P2. 100% with at least P1. Clearly this shows that the idea that people will not pay for options is completely false.
Also, the C may be the MB "entry level" but it is NOT an "entry level" car (considering price) compared to the rest of the US market. If MB wants to play in this game, then they need to play. Otherwise, just stay home. I cannot believe adding just memory seats would introduce such sales risk to the C in the US. No way.
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this.. To say that there are people on this forum that stated that they dont want the C because of lack of options is anecdotal evidence. I am giving you *factual* evidence... there is no arguing with the fact that the customers buying the C class at our dealership here in chicago are not purchasing anything in the way of add-ons or options. And this is in chicago where we have *more* disposable income than most cities (and this is beared out by the fact that we sell *lots* of add-on and options for the other models). You can say it all you want but people who buy C classes just dont spend alot on the extras.
Futhermore I take issue with your assertion that there is zero cost to make options available. For instance to make options like sirius or telephone or voice control available on a car you need to put the plugs and wire in the car. If the customer does not order those options than those plugs go unused although they are paid for. This is exactly why mercedes no longer is putting phone and sirius and VCS plugs on models like the ML/GL/R and exactly why mercedes contracted to have phone and voice control built into the radio going forward in new models. This is not my guess or theory as to why, this is the actual reasoning coming directly from mercedes...
Finally, something innocuous like memory seats *does* cost money to add even if the parts count is zero.. The fallacy here is the one that people commonly believe that the cost of a product should relate entirely to parts as opposed to all of the hidden additional costs (e.g. that box has $20 in parts, how can they sell it for $200). memory seats costs money to implement because its one more thing that may require a small amout of hardware, connectors, and wires, but even if it didnt there still are firmware programming and testing costs and they are not zero.
Keep in mind that I understand your feeling... I love my C and I too wish that there were more features available for it... Its the reason why I have video-in-motion and a backup camera and parking sensors which I spent my hard earned money for. I understand that you feel slighted by mercedes for not offering this or that feature but I think it falls to the old adage.. money talks... if mercedes really could be making money selling feature 'X' to alot of people then they would be doing it because they are not stupid.
03-08-2008, 10:57 AM
#121
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Look, you can try to rationalize all you want, but here are the facts...
Firmware is zero cost. Why? Not because it doesn't take time and resources to develop and test - but because it ALREADY EXISTS! You are making my point. By creating unnecessary differences between the Canadian and US vehicles, MB must have a "separate" firmware specific to the reduced potential feature set of the vehicle. So, very clearly and without question it costs MORE from a firmware, marketing, supply chain, and advertising perspective to NOT have those options than it does to HAVE THEM. This is a fact.
What is also a fact is that we're not talking about lambo doors, expensive leather, pano roof, etc. We're talking about options that the "average buyer" wants. Of three dealers I physically visited during my car search, when I mentioned that I was disappointed that the C didn't have memory seats and couldn't consider it as a result, each and every one of them admitted that they had consistently heard that complaint from prospective customers. One of them made the comment that "I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that". It is equally significant that the only C's they can keep in stock are the ones with only P1 - the P2 and MM vehicles sell faster than they can trade for them. They constantly try to trade for higher optioned vehicles. Now, they DON'T sell ones with Pano or leather too often. The closest dealer has never sold a Pano '08 C. So the fallacy of the argument that MB is correct is simple. You cannot compare normal "routine" features (which are lacking) to far more expensive and "rare" options (such as pano, etc). So, this is far from "anecdotal". Just as you assert about Chicago, this is absolute factual information. Here, at 4 local MB dealers in this area, as well as an OH dealer and a NC dealer (and the NY dealer where I'm getting my '08 E from) non-optioned C's are the minority. Virtually all of them have P1 at a minimum. Pure, uncontested facts.
I also believe you're making a mistake discounting the comments from this board. You see, we who are "fanatical" enough to participate in a MB board are obviously willing to overlook many disadvantages of MB just because we're invested in them. People who have not purchased a MB before in many cases are reading consumer report and other publications which are far from friendly to MB over the past several years. They are not like you or I in general. They have no idea what W204 means - probably would answer that it's some sort of military weapon I would have already purchased a C but for the lack of memory seats (because of height disparity between my wife and I). It would have been a good daily driver for my wife, and I was going to pick up another vehicle for myself (maybe a GL). Because of the seats, the C is verbotten. I bought myself an E. My wife will not be driving a MB as a result. Just one example where MB lost well over $45K due the lack of a single feature which probably costs them less than $50. And that's pure cash - I don't finance, so the lease/financing incentives don't apply here.
I absolutely believe that MB is just that "stupid" to do something where there is no good reason and many reasons not to. Let's face it, they've made mistakes before, and have demonstrated a certain arrogance in failing to learn from them. Have they recovered? Mainly - but not completely. I'm I still going to drive a MB? Yes. Is my wife? No.
Firmware is zero cost. Why? Not because it doesn't take time and resources to develop and test - but because it ALREADY EXISTS! You are making my point. By creating unnecessary differences between the Canadian and US vehicles, MB must have a "separate" firmware specific to the reduced potential feature set of the vehicle. So, very clearly and without question it costs MORE from a firmware, marketing, supply chain, and advertising perspective to NOT have those options than it does to HAVE THEM. This is a fact.
What is also a fact is that we're not talking about lambo doors, expensive leather, pano roof, etc. We're talking about options that the "average buyer" wants. Of three dealers I physically visited during my car search, when I mentioned that I was disappointed that the C didn't have memory seats and couldn't consider it as a result, each and every one of them admitted that they had consistently heard that complaint from prospective customers. One of them made the comment that "I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that". It is equally significant that the only C's they can keep in stock are the ones with only P1 - the P2 and MM vehicles sell faster than they can trade for them. They constantly try to trade for higher optioned vehicles. Now, they DON'T sell ones with Pano or leather too often. The closest dealer has never sold a Pano '08 C. So the fallacy of the argument that MB is correct is simple. You cannot compare normal "routine" features (which are lacking) to far more expensive and "rare" options (such as pano, etc). So, this is far from "anecdotal". Just as you assert about Chicago, this is absolute factual information. Here, at 4 local MB dealers in this area, as well as an OH dealer and a NC dealer (and the NY dealer where I'm getting my '08 E from) non-optioned C's are the minority. Virtually all of them have P1 at a minimum. Pure, uncontested facts.
I also believe you're making a mistake discounting the comments from this board. You see, we who are "fanatical" enough to participate in a MB board are obviously willing to overlook many disadvantages of MB just because we're invested in them. People who have not purchased a MB before in many cases are reading consumer report and other publications which are far from friendly to MB over the past several years. They are not like you or I in general. They have no idea what W204 means - probably would answer that it's some sort of military weapon
I would have already purchased a C but for the lack of memory seats (because of height disparity between my wife and I). It would have been a good daily driver for my wife, and I was going to pick up another vehicle for myself (maybe a GL). Because of the seats, the C is verbotten. I bought myself an E. My wife will not be driving a MB as a result. Just one example where MB lost well over $45K due the lack of a single feature which probably costs them less than $50. And that's pure cash - I don't finance, so the lease/financing incentives don't apply here. I absolutely believe that MB is just that "stupid" to do something where there is no good reason and many reasons not to. Let's face it, they've made mistakes before, and have demonstrated a certain arrogance in failing to learn from them. Have they recovered? Mainly - but not completely. I'm I still going to drive a MB? Yes. Is my wife? No.
03-10-2008, 05:47 PM
#122
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2001 c320
You are right!
I did not trade my 2001 c320 which I bought the first day this model came out, for the new C class, which I looked at the first day they appeared on the lot, because the new c-class didn't have memory seats. Now I am looking at the Lexus IS. Its loaded with features. My wife has the GS350 and its awesome.
I'll wait until the 2009's come out and then I'll decide.
Keep it up Mercedes, Toyota loves you.
I did not trade my 2001 c320 which I bought the first day this model came out, for the new C class, which I looked at the first day they appeared on the lot, because the new c-class didn't have memory seats. Now I am looking at the Lexus IS. Its loaded with features. My wife has the GS350 and its awesome.
I'll wait until the 2009's come out and then I'll decide.
Keep it up Mercedes, Toyota loves you.
03-11-2008, 02:28 PM
#123
Super Member
You are right!
I did not trade my 2001 c320 which I bought the first day this model came out, for the new C class, which I looked at the first day they appeared on the lot, because the new c-class didn't have memory seats. Now I am looking at the Lexus IS. Its loaded with features. My wife has the GS350 and its awesome.
I'll wait until the 2009's come out and then I'll decide.
Keep it up Mercedes, Toyota loves you.
I did not trade my 2001 c320 which I bought the first day this model came out, for the new C class, which I looked at the first day they appeared on the lot, because the new c-class didn't have memory seats. Now I am looking at the Lexus IS. Its loaded with features. My wife has the GS350 and its awesome.
I'll wait until the 2009's come out and then I'll decide.
Keep it up Mercedes, Toyota loves you.
edit: i wonder who's the genius that decides the options available for USA and if he/she still has a job...
Last edited by webada; 03-11-2008 at 02:30 PM.
03-11-2008, 07:07 PM
#124
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Silver 2005 Acura TSX Navi
i wonder if that same genius has anything to do with the rates MBUSA is offering, fed has cut rate 1.25% and not on basis point in the money factor has changed. fed suppose to loved rates .75% more next week, they need to get on the ball with rates. (at least for the W204, they are giving away the E class and CLK)
