Nitrogen for tyres...
#52
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W204
It is interesting to read how the thread had evolved. When I have nitrogen in my tire, I only need to top-up to the correct pressure when I do rotation every 10,000 Km or 4 months. Before when I have just pumped air, I need to top-up every month. To me this is a great advantage, although some may find it insignificant. But I am happy with the results.
However, I won't pay for nitrogen. And if I suddenly have a flat tire, I won't go through the trouble and travel 10 Km to my tire dealer to pump free nitrogen. I'd choose to drive 2 Km to the nearest gas station and pump normal air.
However, I won't pay for nitrogen. And if I suddenly have a flat tire, I won't go through the trouble and travel 10 Km to my tire dealer to pump free nitrogen. I'd choose to drive 2 Km to the nearest gas station and pump normal air.
#53
Yes I have tried N, for over two years, but the differences were so small that I couldnt notice them,
There is no way in hell that you can benefit the same advantages with a road car as a race driver or an airplane or even the NASA Space Shuttle.
The only thing left is the fact that N filled tires doesnt leak as much, but as already mentioned before, the difference is so puny it is ridiculous.
You go on ahead and spend money on your bogus gas, I like many others will happily stick with free and available air.
There is no way in hell that you can benefit the same advantages with a road car as a race driver or an airplane or even the NASA Space Shuttle.
The only thing left is the fact that N filled tires doesnt leak as much, but as already mentioned before, the difference is so puny it is ridiculous.
You go on ahead and spend money on your bogus gas, I like many others will happily stick with free and available air.
That's just it - none of the people in this thread need to "make any effort" to prove you wrong because your own links do it for us. The difference on a street car, even with a very aggressive driver is unnoticeable in every way. Get over it.
Assuming we believe you that the oxygen escapes first because it is smaller than nitrogen (its hardly smaller) then most of us ARE driving around with nitrogen filled tires, naturally. Every time you "top off" your tire with AIR the level of oxygen remaining in the tire must decrease. In your world the 78% nitrogen in the air probably winds up closer to 90% after a tire has been topped off a few times. So congratulations, you just proved yourself wrong on top of all the other reasoning.
Assuming we believe you that the oxygen escapes first because it is smaller than nitrogen (its hardly smaller) then most of us ARE driving around with nitrogen filled tires, naturally. Every time you "top off" your tire with AIR the level of oxygen remaining in the tire must decrease. In your world the 78% nitrogen in the air probably winds up closer to 90% after a tire has been topped off a few times. So congratulations, you just proved yourself wrong on top of all the other reasoning.
Oxygen does leak faster than nitrogen. Besides the fact that you obviously don't understand what happens when you re-inflate your tires to spec, what amount of moisture or oxygen is returned into the tire. Your unfounded and unproved assertion that by proxy my widely supported facts and figures are wrong, is disingenuous on your part.
It is interesting to read how the thread had evolved. When I have nitrogen in my tire, I only need to top-up to the correct pressure when I do rotation every 10,000 Km or 4 months. Before when I have just pumped air, I need to top-up every month. To me this is a great advantage, although some may find it insignificant. But I am happy with the results.
However, I won't pay for nitrogen. And if I suddenly have a flat tire, I won't go through the trouble and travel 10 Km to my tire dealer to pump free nitrogen. I'd choose to drive 2 Km to the nearest gas station and pump normal air.
However, I won't pay for nitrogen. And if I suddenly have a flat tire, I won't go through the trouble and travel 10 Km to my tire dealer to pump free nitrogen. I'd choose to drive 2 Km to the nearest gas station and pump normal air.
#54
MBWorld Fanatic!
If Nitrogen is all that wonderful as you think, why doesnt every car manufacturer in the world fill the tires on their new cars with it when they roll of the plant?
#55
MBWorld Fanatic!
This thread is getting pretty comical. I am wondering how long, if ever, it will take you guys to simply agree that there is a measureable benefit, however marginal, to using Nitrogen.
I don't have N and won't go to any particular effort to get it, but if I pulled up to a service station that had both Nitrogen and compressed air for free or equal price, I would certainly go with the Nitrogen...could we all at least agree with that???
I don't have N and won't go to any particular effort to get it, but if I pulled up to a service station that had both Nitrogen and compressed air for free or equal price, I would certainly go with the Nitrogen...could we all at least agree with that???
#56
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C180K 2011 COMAND, AMG, Dynamic Xenon, Business Pack, H&K Audio and +
no. we can all agree on it if we get a chance to fill with Nitrogen on every gas station around for free like air. BTW last time I checked my tyres pressure was 1.5 months ago. And today I checked it again. I had no loss in the pressure. I filled air in tyres with low temprature and then checked again after 1.5 months with normal low temprature. The car was not moved for atleast 4 hours on both occasions " filling and checking " I have run flats.
The difference is very minor so why would someone bother to get to the place ( maybe drive 10 km , might be 20 or so ) to fill up nitrogen where as Air is available every 1- 2 km's for free?
Even lets say if the normal air tyre lasts upto 50K km then with nitrogen it would last like 49K km? Is it really worth it? figure it out.
The difference is very minor so why would someone bother to get to the place ( maybe drive 10 km , might be 20 or so ) to fill up nitrogen where as Air is available every 1- 2 km's for free?
Even lets say if the normal air tyre lasts upto 50K km then with nitrogen it would last like 49K km? Is it really worth it? figure it out.
#58
Super Moderator
Besides spouting off about stuff you obviously have no first hand experience with, would you like to actually back up your claims, and prove it? My guess is you, nor anyone else actually will take up the challenge. But go ahead claim it doesn't work without any sort of effort on your part.
I stick to my comment - Absolutely on track - Off track - who cares - good sales gimmick. On track with soft compound tyres & issues like tyre growth messing with gearing etc. etc. ad nauseum - it makes sense.
#59
Besides you behaving like a jerk - I have run my own Car & Bike race teams for years. I have much experience of running nitrogen in tyres. I have a catalogue of tyre pyrometer readings as long as your arm racing with Michelin as our tyre sponsor. My car in the garage has nitrogen in the tyres (now somewhat poluted) because my Michelin tyre shop inflate with nitrogen FOC when they fit new tyres & will continue to top up FOC if you choose to take the trouble.
I stick to my comment - Absolutely on track - Off track - who cares - good sales gimmick. On track with soft compound tyres & issues like tyre growth messing with gearing etc. etc. ad nauseum - it makes sense.
I stick to my comment - Absolutely on track - Off track - who cares - good sales gimmick. On track with soft compound tyres & issues like tyre growth messing with gearing etc. etc. ad nauseum - it makes sense.
#60
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Why doesn't every car manufacturer sell a hybrid vehicle, or full electric vehicle?
Besides you and others being completely argumentative and unresponsive to the actual information posted, yes, it is a benefit in your standard street vehicles, regardless of what you say to the contrary. If it is beneficial to a race car, it will still provide benefits of the same nature to motor vehicles.
Besides you and others being completely argumentative and unresponsive to the actual information posted, yes, it is a benefit in your standard street vehicles, regardless of what you say to the contrary. If it is beneficial to a race car, it will still provide benefits of the same nature to motor vehicles.
#61
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$0.01 (due to economy)
#63
MBWorld Fanatic!
#64
Super Moderator
Besides you and others being completely argumentative and unresponsive to the actual information posted, yes, it is a benefit in your standard street vehicles, regardless of what you say to the contrary. If it is beneficial to a race car, it will still provide benefits of the same nature to motor vehicles.
Don't make stupid assumptions about people - quote "Besides spouting off about stuff you obviously have no first hand experience with" unquote.
#65
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S204 C220 CDI, VW Scirocco III 1.4TSI 160
Besides you behaving like a jerk - I have run my own Car & Bike race teams for years. I have much experience of running nitrogen in tyres. I have a catalogue of tyre pyrometer readings as long as your arm racing with Michelin as our tyre sponsor. My car in the garage has nitrogen in the tyres (now somewhat poluted) because my Michelin tyre shop inflate with nitrogen FOC when they fit new tyres & will continue to top up FOC if you choose to take the trouble.
I stick to my comment - Absolutely on track - Off track - who cares - good sales gimmick. On track with soft compound tyres & issues like tyre growth messing with gearing etc. etc. ad nauseum - it makes sense.
I stick to my comment - Absolutely on track - Off track - who cares - good sales gimmick. On track with soft compound tyres & issues like tyre growth messing with gearing etc. etc. ad nauseum - it makes sense.
#66
People become frustrated at you being obtuse - let me explain my original point in simple language that you might understand regarding not allowing tyres to remain warm enough for grip - nitrogen inflation causes tyres to run cooler - a benefit on track most of the time - ever noticed cars on track swerving around desparately trying to keep temperature/heat in their tyres while following the pace car on soft compound race tyres??? - well it has the same effect on your rock hard compound road tyres & you can't provide the energy input on road to keep them warm.
Don't make stupid assumptions about people - quote "Besides spouting off about stuff you obviously have no first hand experience with" unquote.
Don't make stupid assumptions about people - quote "Besides spouting off about stuff you obviously have no first hand experience with" unquote.
So, yes, thank you for proving my previous assertion, you have no idea what you are talking about, and don't have real experience with. Btw, pointing a temperature gauge at a tire doesn't equate to any sort of experience, try again.
#67
Super Moderator
You definitely are a mental paraplegic - a few posts back you were talking about water degradation of compounds, belts & beading being of major importance. You don't understand the right amount of heat for compound performance vs excess heat.
Suggest you enroll on a Michelin tyre course for dummies - please stay away from racing. You would be a menace to any team. Join a funny farm where you can use a nitrogen filled tube as a flotation device. Signing off from a dumb thread.
Suggest you enroll on a Michelin tyre course for dummies - please stay away from racing. You would be a menace to any team. Join a funny farm where you can use a nitrogen filled tube as a flotation device. Signing off from a dumb thread.
#68
You definitely are a mental paraplegic - a few posts back you were talking about water degradation of compounds, belts & beading being of major importance. You don't understand the right amount of heat for compound performance vs excess heat.
Suggest you enroll on a Michelin tyre course for dummies - please stay away from racing. You would be a menace to any team. Join a funny farm where you can use a nitrogen filled tube as a flotation device. Signing off from a dumb thread.
Suggest you enroll on a Michelin tyre course for dummies - please stay away from racing. You would be a menace to any team. Join a funny farm where you can use a nitrogen filled tube as a flotation device. Signing off from a dumb thread.
Heat is the only cause of failure in a tire, would you care to challenge that too?
#70
MBWorld Fanatic!
So your justification that it isn't worthwhile is because not every tire store, dealership, and service station has it availible? Does that mean that everything that has limited availability is worthless? Or do you all just like trumpeting against something that (based on provided facts) does give a consumer the beneficial reason to use in their tires?
Again you fail to answer my original question
I may be Swedish and I am not very good in English, but in most of my posts I have clearly declared whats my issue with Nitrogen.
first of all The benefits are too small!! second, its hard to find when you need to refill, (and you will need them).
Third, It costs money, why pay for anything that gives an almost unmeasureable advantage when regular air is free anywhere?
Ill give you another question you probably cannot answer: What do you do for a living?.
I am prepared to bet that it has something to do involving sales of Nitrogen, I really cannot see why you should rant on like this otherwise
Last edited by vic viper; 04-12-2009 at 02:50 AM.
#71
MBWorld Fanatic!
To bottom line it, is this:
1. Nitrogen involves less seepage, and amount of time to check tire (tyre) pressure.
2. You will experience a slight (very slight) difference in handling at high speeds.
3. If you have to pay little to nothing, Nitrogen is cool, get it. If you have to pay a premium, take a pass and get the O2.
I have used Nitrogen and air for over 10 years now, and the only two differences I saw were much less time spent checking pressure due to no to low loss with Nitrogen as opposed to air. That was about it..This is my personal experience.
A lot of you are expressing the same views but with some different aspects and viewpoints. No need to get all touchy and insulting. Everyone go inhale some Nitrogen and relax.
#72
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You definitely are a mental paraplegic - a few posts back you were talking about water degradation of compounds, belts & beading being of major importance. You don't understand the right amount of heat for compound performance vs excess heat.
Suggest you enroll on a Michelin tyre course for dummies - please stay away from racing. You would be a menace to any team. Join a funny farm where you can use a nitrogen filled tube as a flotation device. Signing off from a dumb thread.
Suggest you enroll on a Michelin tyre course for dummies - please stay away from racing. You would be a menace to any team. Join a funny farm where you can use a nitrogen filled tube as a flotation device. Signing off from a dumb thread.
#73
Again you fail to answer my original question
I may be Swedish and I am not very good in English, but in most of my posts I have clearly declared whats my issue with Nitrogen.
first of all The benefits are too small!! second, its hard to find when you need to refill, (and you will need them).
Third, It costs money, why pay for anything that gives an almost unmeasureable advantage when regular air is free anywhere?
Ill give you another question you probably cannot answer: What do you do for a living?.
I am prepared to bet that it has something to do involving sales of Nitrogen, I really cannot see why you should rant on like this otherwise
I may be Swedish and I am not very good in English, but in most of my posts I have clearly declared whats my issue with Nitrogen.
first of all The benefits are too small!! second, its hard to find when you need to refill, (and you will need them).
Third, It costs money, why pay for anything that gives an almost unmeasureable advantage when regular air is free anywhere?
Ill give you another question you probably cannot answer: What do you do for a living?.
I am prepared to bet that it has something to do involving sales of Nitrogen, I really cannot see why you should rant on like this otherwise
Thought you all might love this below 30+ page test result paper from the NHTSA.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles...009/811094.pdf
Summary:
Though the study was not specifically designed around evaluating the effects of nitrogen inflation, a sufficient number of tires with different inflation gases were tested in the various test programs to yield a number of statistically significant results. NHTSA testing of tires has confirmed that using nitrogen as an inflation gas in place of air slows the static IPL of the tire significantly. In the 90-day static room temperature test, the inflation pressure loss rate for tires inflated with nitrogen was approximately two-thirds of the loss rate of tires inflated with air. Dynamic testing on a roadwheel test shows the differences between the diffusion rate of air versus nitrogen versus 50/50 N2/O2 are maintained at higher temperatures and dynamic conditions (i.e., simulating rolling operation on a vehicle). The decrease in permeability for nitrogen gas was observed to be independent of tire innerliner composition and thickness, thus applicable to all tire types studied.
Inflating with nitrogen in place of air had little or no direct effect on tire rolling resistance performance. It should be noted that inflation with nitrogen merely slows the rate of diffusion of gas from the tire and is not a substitute for regularly maintaining tire pressure. Limited static inflation
pressure loss rate testing with a 50/50 blend of nitrogen/oxygen inflation gas produced mixed results. The IPL for all tires began significantly higher, but dropped by the end of the 90day test period to approximately the loss rate of air, which contains only 21 percent oxygen. Analysis of the gas content at the end of the test period confirmed that the rate of oxygen loss from the tire was approximately four times the rate of nitrogen loss averaged over the 90-day period. The reasons for the drop in IPL over time for the high-oxygen-content tires are unknown.
Seventy-six tires from 19 vehicles were measured for tire pressure and oxygen concentration. For the forty tires with the DOT code recorded, the average age of the tires at the time of inspection was 2.8 years with tires ranging for 0.6 to 6.8 years old. The average inflation pressure of the tires was 29.1 psi. The average percentage of oxygen measured in the inflation gas of field tires (on-vehicle tires) was 15.0 percent, and most values were significantly less than the original air inflation level of 20.9 percent. This suggests that the partial pressure of oxygen in the tire decreased
significantly during service. Probably there are two contributing factors: first, oxygen has a higher permeation rate than nitrogen, and second, oxygen is consumed.
Using the estimate of 0.041 percent/month for each percentage reduction in O2 percentage and the average IPL loss of 2.13 percent/month for the tires studied in the lab, the calculated IPL of these field tires would be reduced by approximately 11 percent (0.24%/month) due to the change in inflation gas composition. In other words, if a normally maintained in-service tire is not punctured or deflated, the faster diffusion/consumption of oxygen relative to the nitrogen content of the inflation gas results in an increase in the percentage of nitrogen gas from the original 78 percent to as high as the 91 percent observed, thus lowering the effective rate of inflation pressure loss. This means that the average loss rate for tires in the field may be considerably different than that measured using freshly inflated new tires. The benefits of nitrogen inflation on pressure retention of tires in service may be overstated by testing with new, freshly inflated tires in a laboratory test. Based on this study, the mean advantage in IPL for tires in service will be approximately
25 percent.
The results for 23 tires subjected to hundreds of hours of laboratory roadwheel aging with air, 50/50 N2/O2, or nitrogen inflation were inconclusive. Results did not indicate a correlation between the inflation gas used and the time to failure in this particular roadwheel durability test.
The results for 44 tires subjected to oven aging for 5-weeks at 65° C, followed by the 35.5 hour FMVSS No. 139 Endurance and Low Pressure test sequence, showed the oven and roadwheel test conditions to be sufficiently severe to differentiate between 50/50 N2/O2 inflation and the other two inflation gases, air and nitrogen. However, the oven and roadwheel test conditions were not severe enough to differentiate between air and nitrogen inflation. The oxygen concentration
measurement data from both the accelerated dynamic roadwheel aging and static oven aging also showed a much more rapid diffusion/reaction of the oxygen portion of the inflation gas when compared to the nitrogen gas.
An analysis of common inter-belt rubber material properties from tires retrieved after an average of four years of on-vehicle service in Phoenix, Arizona demonstrated that a portion of the oxygen permeating through the tire is absorbed and reacts with the internal tire rubber compounds, which eventually leads to degradation of inter-belt adhesion. Accelerated laboratory aging of the tires using a two-hour roadwheel break-in and five weeks of oven aging at 65° C with an oxygen-enriched inflation gas yielded changes in the level of absorbed oxygen, tensile properties and peel strength properties in the internal belt package rubber that were similar to 4-year-old tires retrieved from service. Hence, out of 11 tire models that successfully passed the FMVSS No. 139 Endurance and Low Pressure tests when new, 3 models failed when oven aged prior to the road-wheel test. These changes in material properties and roadwheel performance could be replicated in the laboratory through the use of elevated temperatures and oxygen-enriched inflation gas despite only running the tires 100 miles at 50 mph on the roadwheel during the break-in. Therefore the results strongly indicate that the degradative reaction of the internal tire rubber components is a product of the internal pressurized oxygen and temperature conditions rather than from purely mechanical fatigue of the tire structure. Thus lowering the percentage of oxygen in the inflation gas may be one way to lessen the availability of oxygen to react with and degrade the internal components of the tire.
A primary positive result expected from nitrogen inflation may to produce more uniformly maintained tire pressure over time, which would help maintain tire performance properties such as handling, rolling resistance and durability. As seen from the effect of liner composition on IPL, this may be more important for some tire models. Also, there is a strong scientific basis for concluding that reducing the oxygen content of the inflation gas will reduce the internal thermooxidative degradation of the tire, which may aid in retention of durability.
Though the study was not specifically designed around evaluating the effects of nitrogen inflation, a sufficient number of tires with different inflation gases were tested in the various test programs to yield a number of statistically significant results. NHTSA testing of tires has confirmed that using nitrogen as an inflation gas in place of air slows the static IPL of the tire significantly. In the 90-day static room temperature test, the inflation pressure loss rate for tires inflated with nitrogen was approximately two-thirds of the loss rate of tires inflated with air. Dynamic testing on a roadwheel test shows the differences between the diffusion rate of air versus nitrogen versus 50/50 N2/O2 are maintained at higher temperatures and dynamic conditions (i.e., simulating rolling operation on a vehicle). The decrease in permeability for nitrogen gas was observed to be independent of tire innerliner composition and thickness, thus applicable to all tire types studied.
Inflating with nitrogen in place of air had little or no direct effect on tire rolling resistance performance. It should be noted that inflation with nitrogen merely slows the rate of diffusion of gas from the tire and is not a substitute for regularly maintaining tire pressure. Limited static inflation
pressure loss rate testing with a 50/50 blend of nitrogen/oxygen inflation gas produced mixed results. The IPL for all tires began significantly higher, but dropped by the end of the 90day test period to approximately the loss rate of air, which contains only 21 percent oxygen. Analysis of the gas content at the end of the test period confirmed that the rate of oxygen loss from the tire was approximately four times the rate of nitrogen loss averaged over the 90-day period. The reasons for the drop in IPL over time for the high-oxygen-content tires are unknown.
Seventy-six tires from 19 vehicles were measured for tire pressure and oxygen concentration. For the forty tires with the DOT code recorded, the average age of the tires at the time of inspection was 2.8 years with tires ranging for 0.6 to 6.8 years old. The average inflation pressure of the tires was 29.1 psi. The average percentage of oxygen measured in the inflation gas of field tires (on-vehicle tires) was 15.0 percent, and most values were significantly less than the original air inflation level of 20.9 percent. This suggests that the partial pressure of oxygen in the tire decreased
significantly during service. Probably there are two contributing factors: first, oxygen has a higher permeation rate than nitrogen, and second, oxygen is consumed.
Using the estimate of 0.041 percent/month for each percentage reduction in O2 percentage and the average IPL loss of 2.13 percent/month for the tires studied in the lab, the calculated IPL of these field tires would be reduced by approximately 11 percent (0.24%/month) due to the change in inflation gas composition. In other words, if a normally maintained in-service tire is not punctured or deflated, the faster diffusion/consumption of oxygen relative to the nitrogen content of the inflation gas results in an increase in the percentage of nitrogen gas from the original 78 percent to as high as the 91 percent observed, thus lowering the effective rate of inflation pressure loss. This means that the average loss rate for tires in the field may be considerably different than that measured using freshly inflated new tires. The benefits of nitrogen inflation on pressure retention of tires in service may be overstated by testing with new, freshly inflated tires in a laboratory test. Based on this study, the mean advantage in IPL for tires in service will be approximately
25 percent.
The results for 23 tires subjected to hundreds of hours of laboratory roadwheel aging with air, 50/50 N2/O2, or nitrogen inflation were inconclusive. Results did not indicate a correlation between the inflation gas used and the time to failure in this particular roadwheel durability test.
The results for 44 tires subjected to oven aging for 5-weeks at 65° C, followed by the 35.5 hour FMVSS No. 139 Endurance and Low Pressure test sequence, showed the oven and roadwheel test conditions to be sufficiently severe to differentiate between 50/50 N2/O2 inflation and the other two inflation gases, air and nitrogen. However, the oven and roadwheel test conditions were not severe enough to differentiate between air and nitrogen inflation. The oxygen concentration
measurement data from both the accelerated dynamic roadwheel aging and static oven aging also showed a much more rapid diffusion/reaction of the oxygen portion of the inflation gas when compared to the nitrogen gas.
An analysis of common inter-belt rubber material properties from tires retrieved after an average of four years of on-vehicle service in Phoenix, Arizona demonstrated that a portion of the oxygen permeating through the tire is absorbed and reacts with the internal tire rubber compounds, which eventually leads to degradation of inter-belt adhesion. Accelerated laboratory aging of the tires using a two-hour roadwheel break-in and five weeks of oven aging at 65° C with an oxygen-enriched inflation gas yielded changes in the level of absorbed oxygen, tensile properties and peel strength properties in the internal belt package rubber that were similar to 4-year-old tires retrieved from service. Hence, out of 11 tire models that successfully passed the FMVSS No. 139 Endurance and Low Pressure tests when new, 3 models failed when oven aged prior to the road-wheel test. These changes in material properties and roadwheel performance could be replicated in the laboratory through the use of elevated temperatures and oxygen-enriched inflation gas despite only running the tires 100 miles at 50 mph on the roadwheel during the break-in. Therefore the results strongly indicate that the degradative reaction of the internal tire rubber components is a product of the internal pressurized oxygen and temperature conditions rather than from purely mechanical fatigue of the tire structure. Thus lowering the percentage of oxygen in the inflation gas may be one way to lessen the availability of oxygen to react with and degrade the internal components of the tire.
A primary positive result expected from nitrogen inflation may to produce more uniformly maintained tire pressure over time, which would help maintain tire performance properties such as handling, rolling resistance and durability. As seen from the effect of liner composition on IPL, this may be more important for some tire models. Also, there is a strong scientific basis for concluding that reducing the oxygen content of the inflation gas will reduce the internal thermooxidative degradation of the tire, which may aid in retention of durability.
#75
MBWorld Fanatic!
Funny thing, you claim that Nitrogen has been available in the automotive industry for 40 years now, If it has been around for so long and is so darn good, why doesnt everyone today drive around with it?