C300Sport

Will the ESP light come on every time the electronic nannies kick in? If so, I didn't have any e- intervention on my ramp escapade...
I think I will find a nice big open lot somewhere and see what she can do with and without e- assistance.

mikestyle

Ok so u disagreed with most of what i said?



Now i understand your theory and i would just like to remind you again "the law of diminishing returns applies" now you are saying that wider then stock tires will not benefit the car? i feel sorry for your ignorants, wider tires will help the car, there is no way the tires a wide enough for this car.

U say the car is already stiff enough, well the car handles pritty darn well stock, i have installed h&r ss and the car feels alot and i mean alot better, why do you think that is?

Lastly if the turn is taken "properly" then you guys would know that mb did a very good job balancing the car because when on edge there is more oversteer then understeer again when the car handled PROPERLY.


For those of you who do not know how to, yess the car will underseer and this is probably for your best interest

Again with the esp set to off, it should not intervene unless there is driver error, and when it activates, the user is doing something wrong (lol unless driving in circles).

C300Sport

You can keep your ingnorance comment to yourself, thank you very much. I find it interesting that you assume I do not know how to drive and do not understand driving dynamics.
As far as setup ignorance, once again I will tell you, proper balanced handling is not as simple as stiffer springs and wider wheels. Excellent handling is a balance and sometimes what works perfectly for one situation will not work well for the next. A stiffer, shorter travel suspension would only have made that particular ramp a little worse, certainly no better.

kimyoung_k

I maybe wrong but ESP light only comes on at the major ESP interven. According to the ESP test on snowy road, could feel the ESP kick in to correct the fish tailing on the corner but not does light the ESP indicator if it was a brief interven at a time.

Glyn M Ruck

This entire issue is one of balance and what you want from the car. The comment "properly" is BS. Yes you can induce oversteer but to suggest that, that is driving "PROPERLY" is presumptuous at best.

All these things are a compromise. Stiffer spring rates, stiffer damping, stiffer bushing (which would have a large effect - handling is hugely effected by compliance because it all gangs up against you at the limit - the reason American cars handle like crap - they all have far too much compliance), larger wheels with lower profile tyres, lowering & change in attitude, & the effects of increases in unsprung mass will all effect the ride quality of the vehicle & can all mess with the NVH engineering of the car. Don't even dare say they won't.

So - we have to decide whether we are prepared to give up some of what normal people consider "comfort" - then yes you can improve the handling. You can't do one without giving up the other to a degree that you have to decide on.

Another thing that amuses me on the forums - Is that most people that lower the suspension drop the tail too far & loose the nose down attitude of the vehicle. It might look good but it screws the high speed stability & CD by allowing too much air under the car which will develop a pressure wedge under the floorpan causing it to float around as speed increases.

Make sure that the attitude is nose down - tail up. It should not look like a 1965 Ford Mustang LOL

mikestyle

Ok so have you driven a w204 which has been lowered?
my guess in no, as lowering the car 1-2 inches has a big effect on handling, i do not know the ramp however unless there were potholes i would have to disagree with you. I do not mean to come across as negative however i feel you are ignorant/uneducated in terms of what springs and tires will do specifically the w204.



I do agree very very good handling is not as simple as i stated, however it is a good start, I have done both springs and tires/rims and honestly the car feels totally different, im not trying to start a argument, however if you lived close to me i would give you a ride so you can experience it for your self. and yes each situation on every car is different, however physics will always stay the same.


SO what do you think will increase the handeling capabilities of the car?
are you trying to say Mercedes-Benz did not engineer the car with handling in mind, rendering the car helpless?

mikestyle

what im sayin is when maximum g-force is archived on a high speed corner there is more oversteer then understeer but both are still present when on edge however there is more oversteer.
Max grip is achieved when the car is handled "properly" (textbook)
i speak from experience, and that is the way the car handles.


And ya a agree most Americans do not push their car, and that is why the w204 is how it is. I feel the w204 is a amazing handling car for the comfort level.

dmatre

I don't think that anyone disputes that the handling can be improved through upgraded springs/shocks/swaybars/bushings/wheels/tires/etc.

The only point that I wanted to convey was that if the OP's car felt unstable at the speed he was traveling around the off-ramp, then he was probably into the "ESP-zone", and this is what gave him the impression of the car being unstable.

I've driven/ridden in several different models of Benzes, W123s, W124s, W211s, W203s, W204s, and all feel very stable at the limit - with the exception of when ESP is activated.

The W123/124 leaned and floated quite a bit more than the 203/204, but once bent into a corner, stability was not an issue.

My old 124 (300TD wagon) had very worn rear bushings. The thing would slither while traveling in a straight line, if the transmission shifted under full power (due to the torque change) - but once the slop in the bushings was taken up and the car was leaned over, it was as solid as the 203.

Certainly the OP can improve his car, but to be honest, there's not much need. The 203/204 can both handle so well that you are performing seriously illegal acts if you're getting one of them to slide or engage the ESP on the street.

Glyn M Ruck

+1 dmatre - and to our friend from Toronto. The W204 in standard trim understeers at the limit - Max horizontal g - It is designed to do this - I have the entire design DVD when they dialed it in this way - I have confirmed this on track with all engines. The V6 understeers worse than the I4s. This is the way Benz have designed their cars for years. In contrast BMWs are terminal oversteerers which is why more of them get trashed in the hands of the uninitiated

dmatre

I've seen the ESP triangle flash when traction control was active (in the snow, pulling out of a parking lot on wet road), but to be honest, I've never had the inclination to check out the dashboard while hammering along at 9/10's down an off-ramp or curvy road. I've got my eyes up, and looking down-track, so the light could be making like a Disco and I'd never know it.

Let us know what you find in the parking lot. . . .

ACdude

Why would anyone take a turn 40 MPH faster than the posted speed limit? If you hit the guard rail or flipped over on the grass don't complaint how much it will cost you to repair your car. If you want to do a stunt like that, buy yourself a real sports car like a Porsche. You are asking for too much for a $35K Mercedes.

mikestyle

ok i understand the w204 was made to understeer at low speeds, many manufactures do this including Lotus (arguably best handling car in the world) specifically s2 elise/exige. Over at lotustalk.com its common knowledge that the s2 will understeer, there are also remedies to "reduce understeer" by removing shims. However many experienced track drivers will tell you there is no need to remove them because if driven proper (text-book) the car will oversteer, and not understeer, same goes with my w204 c300.


SO i will say it again, if the car is driven proper (text book) at high speed the car will oversteer, and if anyone wants to come experience it for them self's, i look forward to meeting you.

AsianML

The ESP light will always flash when ESP needs to intervene. What you felt was probably ETS kicking in.

Glyn M Ruck

Not true unless induced or modified. Anyone can flick the steering & induce oversteer. That is not textbook driving buddy. It is how to drive around inherent understeer at high speed. The Porsche is the worlds greatest fast understeerer. You have to work damn hard to get one to oversteer i.e. flick the steering and power the tail out. That is not textbook driving.

AsianML

Tires also perform differently on concrete and asphalt.

mikestyle

OK smart ***, i was not talking about inducing anything, i was talking about when you are on EDGE the car will oversteer more then it will understeer. I get the feeling you have never even had the car on edge have you? and thanks for letting me know what is text book.... i had it all wrong then ehhhh, guess im just another one of those guys that has no idea what im talking about...try to read the whole thread first buddy before ranting.



thanks

mikestyle

ya and i find in multistory parking lots, tires tend to squeal much more, then when on the road.







Glyn M Ruck, do u even have a w204??

Glyn M Ruck

I've had all the W204 models at Killarney - our local race track - at a press day right on the limit - MBSA could not care if we ruined the tyres. They had spares waiting. C180 Kompressor, C200 Kompressor, C220 CDi, C270CDi, C280 (your C300), C350 - in Classic Elegance & Avantgarde models & the C63 AMG. In a variety of manual & auto. These cars were obviously standard with tyre pressures raised for track. They all understeer at the limit & push their nose as they were designed to. They had a mixture of Conti SC3, Michelin PS2 & Pirelli Nero tyres on them. Many local race drivers also attended along with MB test drivers. There was universal agreement they understeer & that's what we all expected. Inducing oversteer is the fastest way through a corner.

I'm not ranting - I'm totally calm - I have read the entire thread & I disagree with you - I'm allowed to.

If you told Benz their cars oversteer standard they would laugh at you.

whiteongrey

I would check tire pressures. Other than that the tires are a compromise and should be upgraded to Z or greater rating for aggressive driving.

I bought my C after driving my colleagues C in Germany - the big diesel at 145 mph between Paris and Dusseldorf, hammered into on ramps etc at 30-100 mph and found it to be excellent - in relation to 530 and E 500 anyway.

It had Z rated tires. My stock tires are no match for Zs and feel mushy too - but comfortable.

palladiumw204

I didnt read any of the above bickering...i have 19x8.5 front and 19x9.5 back and my handling is absolutely perfect.so just buy new rims and tires.

Glyn M Ruck

Yes - The lady of the family drives one. I keep my old 240 because it only has
31,000 miles on the clock. I intend a C350 Elegance but will put a few more Kilometers on this one first.

mikestyle

ok, well looks like we are not getting anywhere with this are we.....

Glyn M Ruck

No - enjoy your car

mikestyle

thanks, hope u enjoy your understeer

dmatre

I also rented a C220CDi in Germany, and it felt even more solid than the US cars. Especially at 230kph, while following a 325wagon. I'm not certain that tires were the issue, as I was comparing a W203 with 225/45-17s in both cases. It felt to me like the German car had linear-rate springs, whereas the US cars get progressive-rate springs.

This means that the US cars are initially softer, stiffening as the spring compresses. The German cars are stiffer at the beginning, and maintain this rate all the way through (or at least that's what it felt like to me).