Royal Purple vs. Mobil 1
09-06-2009, 04:34 PM
#26
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Lets keep this simple & understandable 
1) I am not saying Mobil 1 Euro formulation is the best PCMO - it is a very fine product & readily available in the US. I am saying for your Petrol Benz choose from the list of 229.5 approved oils. For your Diesel Benz passenger car choose from the list of 229.51 approved oils. I run my company's approved Havoline BM Fully Synthetic Euro formulation SAE 5W-40 in my car which is not available in the US or our wholly owned additive company's 229.5 racing formulation that is not available to the public - a perk of the job. Even if it were available I would not recommend it for general use or in locations that experience low temperatures because it is optimised for high temperature only and will not perform well in cold temperatures or combat low temperature sludge well. I live in a hot country so I can get away with it. Buy your approved oils from a well recognised major. They have the largest research budgets.
2) If you read the Definitive... thread. 229.5 & 229.51 oils are mutually exclusive. Benz has mandated that no one oil can claim meeting both specs. 229.5 oils are for petrol passenger car - Ash limits > 0.8 to 1.6%. 229.51 oils are for passenger car diesel with cat & particulate filters - Ash limit < 0.8%. Ash is a good indication of how much additive is in an oil (antiwear - dispersant - detergeant etc). The Amsoil 229.51 product will fail the 229.5 test criteria as a result.
3) Diesel engines do not rev as highly as petrol engines due to the combustion process. They don't run aggressive cam profiles like a petrol engine either. Thus HTHS & higher levels of antiwear to protect the cam & tappet area are less of an issue than in petrol engines.
4)Regarding TBN - You require as much TBN as you require & no more - more is not better if you don't have enough sulphur in the fuel to offset/neutralise it. TBN (alkalinity of an oil formulation) is there to offset the deleterious effects of combustion acids mainly driven by the sulphur content of the fuel Basic chemistry tells us that a strong alkali is as damaging as a strong acid when it comes to corrosive effects on metals. So we don't want more TBN reserve than is necessary. I have never seen a long drain oil sample from a Benz petrol engine that has its TBN totally depleted. You or Amsoil are trying to use a mainly diesel driven positive/requirement & trying to relate it to a PCMO to somehow try & suggest this means higher TBN = better - not so.
5) We have already discussed that the Shell 4 Ball test is inappropriate for PCMOs & in fact the FZG or similar test is better for simulating gear wear. The 4 Ball correlates with very little seen in actual operating equipment. Very useful to BS & mislead the gullible public on trade show stands etc.
6) Noack values of an oil are an indication of the evapourative loss one can expect from the base fluid in an engine oil which leads to that oil thickening as a result of loss of its light ends. This is an issue in highly stressed and hot running diesel engines such as the Deutz air-cooled. It is not an issue in passenger car engine oils & the synthetic base oils used in Merc 229.5 approved products - usually PAO, display excellent Noacks anyway. I have never seen an oil sample from a Benz, racing or otherwise, that has suffered evapourative thickening.
7) 229.5 oils are an excellent choice for Turbo or SC vehicles. The most important requirement of an oil for these applications is oxidation stability to prevent deposit build up in the bearings of a TC for instance. Due to their required base fluid choice & formulation - 229.5 oils have superb oxidation stability. One of the reasons they can do 20,000 Km or 13,000 miles without a problem with proper filtration.
8) Regarding operating oil temperatures. Lower temperatures are mainly a result of the viscometrics. Pumping, shearing & churning of oils generate heat. Thinner oils will generally give you some temperature drop as would oils that shear out of grade with resultant viscosity drop - not a good thing. Reduced bulk oil temperature is not necessarily a good thing either. Many manufacturers like VW/Audi/Lambo etc control their bulk oil temp at around 130 degrees Celsius which is high because this increases engine efficiency.
9) I am not going to get into bashing Bobistheoilguy - It's fruitless. I have seen rubbish spoken by them about base fluids etc. I think good advice is - don't believe everything you read on the Internet just because it is in print. The internet is a wonderful resource but there is a lot of crap out there. You need to sort the wheat from the chaff. Something a have been bashing into my staff for years. Don't believe everything you read. Question it!
1) I am not saying Mobil 1 Euro formulation is the best PCMO - it is a very fine product & readily available in the US. I am saying for your Petrol Benz choose from the list of 229.5 approved oils. For your Diesel Benz passenger car choose from the list of 229.51 approved oils. I run my company's approved Havoline BM Fully Synthetic Euro formulation SAE 5W-40 in my car which is not available in the US or our wholly owned additive company's 229.5 racing formulation that is not available to the public - a perk of the job. Even if it were available I would not recommend it for general use or in locations that experience low temperatures because it is optimised for high temperature only and will not perform well in cold temperatures or combat low temperature sludge well. I live in a hot country so I can get away with it. Buy your approved oils from a well recognised major. They have the largest research budgets.
2) If you read the Definitive... thread. 229.5 & 229.51 oils are mutually exclusive. Benz has mandated that no one oil can claim meeting both specs. 229.5 oils are for petrol passenger car - Ash limits > 0.8 to 1.6%. 229.51 oils are for passenger car diesel with cat & particulate filters - Ash limit < 0.8%. Ash is a good indication of how much additive is in an oil (antiwear - dispersant - detergeant etc). The Amsoil 229.51 product will fail the 229.5 test criteria as a result.
3) Diesel engines do not rev as highly as petrol engines due to the combustion process. They don't run aggressive cam profiles like a petrol engine either. Thus HTHS & higher levels of antiwear to protect the cam & tappet area are less of an issue than in petrol engines.
4)Regarding TBN - You require as much TBN as you require & no more - more is not better if you don't have enough sulphur in the fuel to offset/neutralise it. TBN (alkalinity of an oil formulation) is there to offset the deleterious effects of combustion acids mainly driven by the sulphur content of the fuel Basic chemistry tells us that a strong alkali is as damaging as a strong acid when it comes to corrosive effects on metals. So we don't want more TBN reserve than is necessary. I have never seen a long drain oil sample from a Benz petrol engine that has its TBN totally depleted. You or Amsoil are trying to use a mainly diesel driven positive/requirement & trying to relate it to a PCMO to somehow try & suggest this means higher TBN = better - not so.
5) We have already discussed that the Shell 4 Ball test is inappropriate for PCMOs & in fact the FZG or similar test is better for simulating gear wear. The 4 Ball correlates with very little seen in actual operating equipment. Very useful to BS & mislead the gullible public on trade show stands etc.
6) Noack values of an oil are an indication of the evapourative loss one can expect from the base fluid in an engine oil which leads to that oil thickening as a result of loss of its light ends. This is an issue in highly stressed and hot running diesel engines such as the Deutz air-cooled. It is not an issue in passenger car engine oils & the synthetic base oils used in Merc 229.5 approved products - usually PAO, display excellent Noacks anyway. I have never seen an oil sample from a Benz, racing or otherwise, that has suffered evapourative thickening.
7) 229.5 oils are an excellent choice for Turbo or SC vehicles. The most important requirement of an oil for these applications is oxidation stability to prevent deposit build up in the bearings of a TC for instance. Due to their required base fluid choice & formulation - 229.5 oils have superb oxidation stability. One of the reasons they can do 20,000 Km or 13,000 miles without a problem with proper filtration.
8) Regarding operating oil temperatures. Lower temperatures are mainly a result of the viscometrics. Pumping, shearing & churning of oils generate heat. Thinner oils will generally give you some temperature drop as would oils that shear out of grade with resultant viscosity drop - not a good thing. Reduced bulk oil temperature is not necessarily a good thing either. Many manufacturers like VW/Audi/Lambo etc control their bulk oil temp at around 130 degrees Celsius which is high because this increases engine efficiency.
9) I am not going to get into bashing Bobistheoilguy - It's fruitless. I have seen rubbish spoken by them about base fluids etc. I think good advice is - don't believe everything you read on the Internet just because it is in print. The internet is a wonderful resource but there is a lot of crap out there. You need to sort the wheat from the chaff. Something a have been bashing into my staff for years. Don't believe everything you read. Question it!
cool. That clears up some of the conflicting stuff I've been reading, but just keep in mind that we're also taking your own advice when we question what we're reading from you. Not saying you're wrong but as mentioned, this is the internet and anyone can claim to be industry leaders (as several at Bobistheoilguy claim they are), so don't take anything personal. We're all here to learn and share knowledge/experience
09-06-2009, 07:05 PM
#27
Super Moderator
Absolutely! - I have no problem at all with people querying me & if I can't get my point over sensibly then it's for me to explain myself. I try desperately to see that people get accurate advice on the forum. That's why I did the Definitive ... thead. Not an easy task & we use too much jargon in the oil industry.
10-02-2009, 07:39 PM
#28
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for whatever it's worth to this discussion, I have been running Royal Purple 5 w30 for quite some time, switching from my Mobil 1 from the dealer. I have tried Redline oil, and castrol syn. Despite what the data shows from all these approved oils from MB, I must admit the royal purple oil has been far superior than the mobil 1 imo. From when the car was new, I always noticed the engine's performance being affected well before my extended service interval and if i attempted to reach the service point without a change, i would have to put in some oil. When i switched to the RP, not only did i feel added performance, but the oil life, to me, felt longer. I have been doing changes from 3-5k ever since i left the warranty period (always with MB filter) and I have to say I have never had to add oil to my car with RP. Winter and cold startups have been smoother and quieter with the RP over Mobil, and the oil is much cleaner when i do the changes (compared to the Mobil 1 evacuated at the same 3-5k). I drive my car very hard and quite a lot of miles, and the breakdown point on the RP seems much higher/longer than with the Mobil 1, with absolutely no knocks, ticks or roughness ever. Just thought id share my experience
10-02-2009, 07:53 PM
#29
Super Moderator
This is about the most non scientific comment on lubrication I've ever heard.
Royal Purple does not have Benz 229.5 approval
You say the RP oil is cleaner at change - what does that mean - not as dark? If so it is not doing it's job. The quicker it darkens the better the detergent package in the oil.
You really don't understand lubrication & I suggest you read the substantial amount written by myself & others on the forum by doing a search. When Royal Purple achieves an approval then it will be OK to use their product.
Royal Purple does not have Benz 229.5 approval
You say the RP oil is cleaner at change - what does that mean - not as dark? If so it is not doing it's job. The quicker it darkens the better the detergent package in the oil.
You really don't understand lubrication & I suggest you read the substantial amount written by myself & others on the forum by doing a search. When Royal Purple achieves an approval then it will be OK to use their product.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 10-02-2009 at 08:11 PM.
10-02-2009, 08:42 PM
#31
Super Moderator
I don't like being hard on members - but - please, what BS without analysis 
10-02-2009, 08:44 PM
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10-03-2009, 01:21 PM
#34
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Truth be told, I have been visiting this forum since early 2006 and have learned so much about my MB from you folks. However, I have found that many of you dive so far into analyzing a product, or its manufacturer, that no answers ever really get put forth; just a whole bunch of tests, diagrams and science. I am not knocking anyone's knowledge on these subjects either and its awesome to learn all the specifics. And I am not saying that its wrong to want all the info you can have to make an educated decision, but let's be fair to say sometimes it gets a bit overkill.
I am not an idiot, and I have driven and modified several german and exotic vehicles. I take great care and research into my decisions, but at the same time, there is so much data and opinions on products out in the market that it becomes tiresome trying to figure out which one is better over the other. To me it comes down to how your car feels and what people who use the product say about it. I buy only high quality products for my MB, and do not skimp on cost, to ensure that my car will minimal problems down the road. Yes, all oil is not created equal, especially after reading the Definitive post, but I am also not saying to throw in just any crap oil from Autozone and call it a day. I have conferred with many performance shops and race teams who use RP and they have all said great things about it. I myself have experienced great performance and protection from the oil, under heavy loads, in every season. All I was trying to say in my post was that I have quite a few miles on my modified C (bought new) and I have used Mobil 1 and RP. From my experience, butt dyno or not, the RP makes my engine perform better, makes it quieter, and my MB dealer says it is in some of the best health they've seen an m271 engine with the mileage i have. Please forgive me for sharing my personal experience for the rest of the forum without incorporating such hard data to back up my input.
As per my car, it is a i-4 kompressor (bc i wanted a blown 4-cyl) and it is not disguised as anything else. It is a work in progress to convert my c into a bi-boost (turbo and blower) Brabus K-4 . Knock me if you'd like but if you saw my car, or drove in it, you'd probably be impressed.
To conclude, I thought that this forum was a place to share experiences, ideas and ask questions about your Merc. It seems to me that unless you have an extreme knowledge on any given topic, or have researched yourself blue in the face, it is inappropriate to post on this forum (or fear getting flamed). I know many users feel as I do and therefore do not share their opinions for the greater good. Thanks for making me feel so welcome...
I am not an idiot, and I have driven and modified several german and exotic vehicles. I take great care and research into my decisions, but at the same time, there is so much data and opinions on products out in the market that it becomes tiresome trying to figure out which one is better over the other. To me it comes down to how your car feels and what people who use the product say about it. I buy only high quality products for my MB, and do not skimp on cost, to ensure that my car will minimal problems down the road. Yes, all oil is not created equal, especially after reading the Definitive post, but I am also not saying to throw in just any crap oil from Autozone and call it a day. I have conferred with many performance shops and race teams who use RP and they have all said great things about it. I myself have experienced great performance and protection from the oil, under heavy loads, in every season. All I was trying to say in my post was that I have quite a few miles on my modified C (bought new) and I have used Mobil 1 and RP. From my experience, butt dyno or not, the RP makes my engine perform better, makes it quieter, and my MB dealer says it is in some of the best health they've seen an m271 engine with the mileage i have. Please forgive me for sharing my personal experience for the rest of the forum without incorporating such hard data to back up my input.
As per my car, it is a i-4 kompressor (bc i wanted a blown 4-cyl) and it is not disguised as anything else. It is a work in progress to convert my c into a bi-boost (turbo and blower) Brabus K-4 . Knock me if you'd like but if you saw my car, or drove in it, you'd probably be impressed.
To conclude, I thought that this forum was a place to share experiences, ideas and ask questions about your Merc. It seems to me that unless you have an extreme knowledge on any given topic, or have researched yourself blue in the face, it is inappropriate to post on this forum (or fear getting flamed). I know many users feel as I do and therefore do not share their opinions for the greater good. Thanks for making me feel so welcome...
11-28-2011, 07:43 PM
#35
Member
Truth be told, I have been visiting this forum since early 2006 and have learned so much about my MB from you folks. However, I have found that many of you dive so far into analyzing a product, or its manufacturer, that no answers ever really get put forth; just a whole bunch of tests, diagrams and science. I am not knocking anyone's knowledge on these subjects either and its awesome to learn all the specifics. And I am not saying that its wrong to want all the info you can have to make an educated decision, but let's be fair to say sometimes it gets a bit overkill.
I am not an idiot, and I have driven and modified several german and exotic vehicles. I take great care and research into my decisions, but at the same time, there is so much data and opinions on products out in the market that it becomes tiresome trying to figure out which one is better over the other. To me it comes down to how your car feels and what people who use the product say about it. I buy only high quality products for my MB, and do not skimp on cost, to ensure that my car will minimal problems down the road. Yes, all oil is not created equal, especially after reading the Definitive post, but I am also not saying to throw in just any crap oil from Autozone and call it a day. I have conferred with many performance shops and race teams who use RP and they have all said great things about it. I myself have experienced great performance and protection from the oil, under heavy loads, in every season. All I was trying to say in my post was that I have quite a few miles on my modified C (bought new) and I have used Mobil 1 and RP. From my experience, butt dyno or not, the RP makes my engine perform better, makes it quieter, and my MB dealer says it is in some of the best health they've seen an m271 engine with the mileage i have. Please forgive me for sharing my personal experience for the rest of the forum without incorporating such hard data to back up my input.
As per my car, it is a i-4 kompressor (bc i wanted a blown 4-cyl) and it is not disguised as anything else. It is a work in progress to convert my c into a bi-boost (turbo and blower) Brabus K-4 . Knock me if you'd like but if you saw my car, or drove in it, you'd probably be impressed.
To conclude, I thought that this forum was a place to share experiences, ideas and ask questions about your Merc. It seems to me that unless you have an extreme knowledge on any given topic, or have researched yourself blue in the face, it is inappropriate to post on this forum (or fear getting flamed). I know many users feel as I do and therefore do not share their opinions for the greater good. Thanks for making me feel so welcome...
I am not an idiot, and I have driven and modified several german and exotic vehicles. I take great care and research into my decisions, but at the same time, there is so much data and opinions on products out in the market that it becomes tiresome trying to figure out which one is better over the other. To me it comes down to how your car feels and what people who use the product say about it. I buy only high quality products for my MB, and do not skimp on cost, to ensure that my car will minimal problems down the road. Yes, all oil is not created equal, especially after reading the Definitive post, but I am also not saying to throw in just any crap oil from Autozone and call it a day. I have conferred with many performance shops and race teams who use RP and they have all said great things about it. I myself have experienced great performance and protection from the oil, under heavy loads, in every season. All I was trying to say in my post was that I have quite a few miles on my modified C (bought new) and I have used Mobil 1 and RP. From my experience, butt dyno or not, the RP makes my engine perform better, makes it quieter, and my MB dealer says it is in some of the best health they've seen an m271 engine with the mileage i have. Please forgive me for sharing my personal experience for the rest of the forum without incorporating such hard data to back up my input.
As per my car, it is a i-4 kompressor (bc i wanted a blown 4-cyl) and it is not disguised as anything else. It is a work in progress to convert my c into a bi-boost (turbo and blower) Brabus K-4 . Knock me if you'd like but if you saw my car, or drove in it, you'd probably be impressed.
To conclude, I thought that this forum was a place to share experiences, ideas and ask questions about your Merc. It seems to me that unless you have an extreme knowledge on any given topic, or have researched yourself blue in the face, it is inappropriate to post on this forum (or fear getting flamed). I know many users feel as I do and therefore do not share their opinions for the greater good. Thanks for making me feel so welcome...
I Know this is a few years late. But your post was probably the best post ive read in a while.
11-29-2011, 01:04 AM
#36
I just wanted to point out that Mobil 1 is not the end-all, be-all oil for our cars. Last time I had my service done at the dealership they were using Pennzoil.
Pit crews I've talked to in racing pretty uniformly say its a bad idea to run racing oil formulas in passenger cars because of the warming issues of the oil and the formulation is made to be changed very frequently. Is there something they're missing that you could expand on the subject? Also, why would a "not available to the public" oil receive commercial market certification, seems like a major waste of time and money to me.
Pit crews I've talked to in racing pretty uniformly say its a bad idea to run racing oil formulas in passenger cars because of the warming issues of the oil and the formulation is made to be changed very frequently. Is there something they're missing that you could expand on the subject? Also, why would a "not available to the public" oil receive commercial market certification, seems like a major waste of time and money to me.
11-29-2011, 02:20 AM
#37
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Ladies, ladies...... It's beyond me why this is 2 pages deep.
Use Motul........
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Use Motul........
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11-29-2011, 03:27 AM
#38
Most likely you won't keep your car past warranty period so stick with mobil 1. I even use Mobil 1 in my TTZ and no complaints. Many years ago I used to be big on oil brands and I used RP and Amsoil which are excellent oils but I hated ordering them online and the wait wasn't fun. I won't even consider other brands until I build my motor for 600+ whp which will be many years down the line.
11-29-2011, 09:38 AM
#39
Super Moderator
I just wanted to point out that Mobil 1 is not the end-all, be-all oil for our cars. Last time I had my service done at the dealership they were using Pennzoil.
Pit crews I've talked to in racing pretty uniformly say its a bad idea to run racing oil formulas in passenger cars because of the warming issues of the oil and the formulation is made to be changed very frequently. Is there something they're missing that you could expand on the subject? Also, why would a "not available to the public" oil receive commercial market certification, seems like a major waste of time and money to me.
Pit crews I've talked to in racing pretty uniformly say its a bad idea to run racing oil formulas in passenger cars because of the warming issues of the oil and the formulation is made to be changed very frequently. Is there something they're missing that you could expand on the subject? Also, why would a "not available to the public" oil receive commercial market certification, seems like a major waste of time and money to me.
Peabody - good observation & good question.
Absolutely - Mobil 1 Euro formulation is not the be all and end all. Any oil on the approved listing is fine & there are lots of them. Nothing wrong with Shell's Pennzoil rebrand. I think people tend to talk Mobil 1 on this forum because it is readily available in the US. I personally steer clear of punting some formulations because I don't want to be seen as favouring my heritage organisation & M1 is a darn good product so that’s fine with me.
Regarding racing oils. I said our commercial Havoline Ultra BM - approved OR our DTM racing formulation which does not hold a listing.
Indeed some racing oils are high antiwear formulations with zero consideration for cold sludging etc & thus short life, frequent change products. The reason that racing endorsements can be so much crap in many cases.
We took a different & more expensive approach to our DTM formulation by using the commercial product as a base line, Modifying the synthetic viscometrics to 5W-30 & increasing the standard additive treat from 16 to 23% - so it is like the commercial formulation on steroids. Benz liked this approach as did AMG Div. Benz did test it for their own benefit - we did not pay.
When we sponsored the Andretti's in Indycar we used our commercial formulations unchanged.
Hope this helps
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 11-29-2011 at 10:24 AM.
11-29-2011, 10:43 AM
#40
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for whatever it's worth to this discussion, I have been running Royal Purple 5 w30 for quite some time, switching from my Mobil 1 from the dealer. I have tried Redline oil, and castrol syn. Despite what the data shows from all these approved oils from MB, I must admit the royal purple oil has been far superior than the mobil 1 imo..... I have been doing changes from 3-5k ever since i left the warranty period (always with MB filter) and I have to say I have never had to add oil to my car with RP. Winter and cold startups have been smoother and quieter with the RP over Mobil......
.
Last edited by kevink2; 11-29-2011 at 11:16 AM.
11-29-2011, 10:46 AM
#41
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Regarding racing oils. I said our commercial Havoline Ultra BM - approved OR our DTM racing formulation which does not hold a listing.
Indeed some racing oils are high antiwear formulations with zero consideration for cold sludging etc & thus short life, frequent change products. The reason that racing endorsements can be so much crap in many cases.
We took a different & more expensive approach to our DTM formulation by using the commercial product as a base line, Modifying the synthetic viscometrics to 5W-30 & increasing the standard additive treat from 16 to 23% - so it is like the commercial formulation on steroids. Benz liked this approach as did AMG Div. Benz did test it for their own benefit - we did not pay.
When we sponsored the Andretti's in Indycar we used our commercial formulations unchanged.
Indeed some racing oils are high antiwear formulations with zero consideration for cold sludging etc & thus short life, frequent change products. The reason that racing endorsements can be so much crap in many cases.
We took a different & more expensive approach to our DTM formulation by using the commercial product as a base line, Modifying the synthetic viscometrics to 5W-30 & increasing the standard additive treat from 16 to 23% - so it is like the commercial formulation on steroids. Benz liked this approach as did AMG Div. Benz did test it for their own benefit - we did not pay.
When we sponsored the Andretti's in Indycar we used our commercial formulations unchanged.
.
11-29-2011, 11:26 AM
#43
Super Moderator
This included turbo Audi's at one time where we used to run 5W-30 with slightly relieved crank bearing clearances & Honeywell Garrett ball bearing turbos.
