Sportstick

At the risk of being repetitive, with my 25 year career with a major automobile manufacturer, with projects in North America and Asia, I can tell you that the quality of the product is not related to geography, but rather to the skill and discipline of the engineers who design the entire vehicle and the assembly process (many failures complained of on this forum are design and not assembly issues), the robustness and stability of the supplier processes, the training of the workforce, and the quality processes at the plant, which are independent of national origin. The Mercedes mystique is not because it is German...it is the result, rightly or wrongly, of the core competencies which the market attributes to those who stand behind the MB brand, apparently not shared with VW and Opel, equally German.

Acapulco Bill

To emphasize Sportick's post, here is a short list of Mercedes Benz models produced in the Western Hemisphere since 1986. The vertical standard of high quality goals always has to be applied without compromise across the horizontal spectrum of production sites. A global company like MB has to offer a monolithic quality regardless of location of manufacture.
A-Class Hatchback - Juiz de Fora, Brazil
B-Class Sports Tourer/Hatchback - Juiz de Fora, Brazil
C-Class Sedan, Sports Coupe & Wagon - Santiago Tianguistenco, Mexico
CL-Class Coupe - Santiago Tianguistenco, Mexico
CLK-Class Coupe & Cabriolet - Monterrey, Mexico
CLS-Class "4 Door Coupe" - Santiago Tianguistenco, Mexico
CLC-Class luxury compact car - Juiz de Fora, Brazil
E-Class Sedan & Wagon - Santiago Tianguistenco, Mexico
G-Class Cross-country vehicle - Santiago Tianguistenco, Mexico
GL-Class SUV - Santiago Tianguistenco, Mexico
M-Class SUV - Tuscaloosa, Alabama, United States
R-Class Sports Tourer - Mexico City, Mexico
S-Class luxury sedan - Santiago Tianguistenco, Mexico
SL-Class Roadster - Santiago Tianguistenco, Mexico
SLK-Class Roadster - Mexico City, Mexico
Sprinter Van Mexico City, Mexico , Santiago Tianguistenco, Mexico , and Monterrey, Mexico

Expect your W204/205 C Coupe to come from Brazil or Mexico soon!

sknight

I have to be honest and say that I find it sad that the US has not invested in Mexico, to stabilize it and bring wealth to the people...

The people have shown themselves capable of skilled work and learning new skills if given the chance...

sknight

the Mercedes mystique is hugely due to Marketing, as I've said before. It's in their magazines, even. The mystique can and has been traced back to **** Germany, when Hitler made Mercedes the symbol of automotive technology of the Third Reich. In fact, Hitler toys with him in his Fuehrer Mercedes are still out there, but few survived. Out here, the mystique is really nothing, since they are cars and it's better acknowledged, without the interference of apologists, how unreliable the cars are, which pushed many people to other brands, especially during 2008-9, when we all got a new car credit. Mercedes got repeat customers and new ones, but it was also shown that they lost long-term supporters to other brands. Here, if any car has a "mystique" to it, it's Porsche and if any car is built with a soul, it's the VW Phaeton, built in the Glaserne Manufaktur, right down the street from me, where one can stand outside and see the guys in the lab coats assembling the cars. Mind you, Mercedes can't even tout a racing program, since they pulled out all those decades ago and only more recently came back.

In summation, there is no mystique here, where the cars come from. That's distinctly American in invention and Mercedes just runs with it because they can. It sells cars. Cars that have parts that only last 60k miles.

Sportstick

I appreciate your perspective from being inside Germany. One memory I have of a trip there is the prevalence of MB taxi cabs. I asked some drivers about it, and they attributed it to durability, especially of the W211. Do you have a different point of view?

K-A

I appreciate your info and first-hand knowledge and experiences. However, I do also first hand know of people who live in Germany, who absolutely acquaint a "mystique" to the brand, and who speak of their Taxi use in a very high regard: I.e: Durability and go-to Brand. Out in America, a car is societally written off once it's used as a wide ranged Taxi.

I said it was an emotional thing, and not rationale. However, it's my money, and it's my experience, and if I want to feel warm and fuzzy because my Mercedes was assembled in Germany, its home-land, then it's my right.

BTW, ALL CLS's are made in Mexico? I find that odd, as it is heavily based off of the E-Class, and the E is very much assembled in Germany.

sknight

That's actually a joke inside Germany- Mercedes drivers are driving cabs. The system here is different because it costs lots of money to take a cab and lots to license them. Like about 10 years ago in NYC, lots of E-class yellow cabs appeared due to the cost of the licensing changing, so people go in while they could and got e-class Benzes. Durability? I don't know. The workshops here have lots of the MB cabs in them. However, MB isn't the only kind. They are using Passats, Jettas, and many other cars, depending on the city. It depends on the dealer coverage, practicality for the city, and what incentives Mercedes offers if there are lots of them being used as cabs. I don't see it as durability, since the first ones affected by the BAS were the German cab drivers and many are still pissed about that and that's what likely led to other brands moving in. A short cab ride, about 6 miles, costs about 25 euros here, as opposed to about 7 dollars for the same distance in the same type of conditions in the NYC area.

So that's my point of view- it's based on the deal, warranty, service capacity, and high pricing of fares and if a Mercedes is feasible in that city. Also, mind you, those Mercedes taxis are used as the personal cars when off duty and costs can be written off on taxes...

That's fine if you know people who live in Germany, and I'm another. That's like saying "I know people who know black people, so I know the struggle".

Taxis in high regard? I mean, everyone who talks about taxis here ***** about how expensive they are, not about the mystique. It's a game of trying to avoid taxi use for as long as possible in one's life.

As far as a car being societally written off as a cab goes, well, like I said, the jokes here about Mercedes drivers, we people see them, they talk often about how they are driving cabs. they aren't "go to brands". They get deals, it's based on service capacity in the area, and how much the fares in the city can cover costs. The BAS was a huge issue because the MB cars were taken off the road, the drivers lost salary, and the ones still operating were using VWs. In cities with fewer/smaller MB dealers, there won't be Mercedes taxis.

Some cities have LOTS of Toyota Avensis.

Yes, it's your money, but saying such a thing about manufacturing an experience just with money displays what was written about in The Great Gatsby, and also the lack of understanding about a country that carries much hatred for America. Next time you see America complaining about Iran, go right to your "warm, fuzzy" logic and ask why most terrorists have come through Hamburg and why Germany won't shut them down, and why Germany never handed over intelligence on the Hamburg cell before 9/11 and why it still operates and even has a bank they refuse to close:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...662207242.html

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...nk_541365.html

Or such things as how Germany fails to ever reach agreement with the international community on Iran's nuclear program...

or getting back into the homeland, how your car, was mostly manufacturered in China, Slovakia, Kaliningrad, CZ, and other eastern countries, and if you're lucky, it was assembled to some degree in Germany, only enough to be legal. One can stand at any eastern border train crossing and see hundreds of cars at any given time moving into Germany. Some finished, some awaiting finishing here. Even Germans know that and don't apply the thinking you do to these cars. I mean, I got a laugh because you're creating a reality that doesn't exist, while ignoring the true reality and then having never been here, you apply a child-like view to a car. I can absolutely, 100% tell you, if you came out to Germany, got out of the touristy areas, lived here for a while, and saw what Americans deal with here and propaganda, then you might have a different attitude about your "homeland". To be honest, I cringed and got embarassed for you reading that, as did the Germans here, who laughed. Some, like me, drive Mercedes also.

Edit: they chuckled about "Marketing" and said in German "typical dumb American".

K-A

Sounds like you have a lot of hostility toward something, I can't pinpoint to where (Mercedes, Germans, or Americans), although, I'm not saying that due to my perception of that, I don't believe what you're saying. Your statements about Germany practically accepting Terrorists with open arms due to the potential that they will harm America, is heavy talk.

Also, my "Homeland" isn't my cars "Homeland". I'm not in love with Germany itself, I'm "in love" with Germanys contributions and "soul" in the car world.

This Video appears to be my particular car being assembled from the ground up in the Sindelfingen Plant. My thought process here is very simple: I want my Mercedes built here..... It wouldn't give me the same "warm fuzzy feeling" if this video were of my German Benz being built in Alabama.

Now my Chevy, I don't want that built in Mexico, and I certainly don't want it built in Germany.... I want it built in Alabama, or Ohio, or something.

pwidjaja

how true, and we are all still don't mind buying it

Glyn M Ruck

+1

OzC36

sknight,

Some really interesting observations in your posts. It sure opened my eyes somewhat!

Many thanks and Cheers,
OzC36

hannes

Being from Germany, I completely agree with the argument that it does not matter where the car is actually built. From a quality point of view, I would have absolutely no problem buying a Mercedes that is built in South Africa, or the US, or China. Similarly, it seems rather outdated to attach much of a patriotic value to any complex product in 2011 – the parts are from all over the world anyway.

Sknight, I feel that some of your observations are not generally wrong, but most are vastly over exaggerated. First, it is ridiculous to dispute that Mercedes does not carry a certain "mystique" in Germany. Of course we are talking about perception here, so the fact that the cars are no longer hugely different from other brands in terms of engineering quality as they may or may not once have been is a different issue. Whether or not we have borrowed the term "marketing" from the English language – brand perception exists anywhere in the world. However, it is true that that perception is not necessarily the same as it is in the US. The association in Europe is one more of quality than it is of luxury (generally the category of "luxury car" is not as clearly defined as it is in the US) - whether that reputation is deserved is of course a different question. That is why it is unproblematic for VW to sell both a Polo and a Touareg/Phaeton and for Mercedes to sell an Atego garbage truck and an S-Class. In the US GM needs Chevrolet for the Aveo and Cadillac for the CTS.

This is also the reason why Mercedes taxis rather have a positive marketing effect of quality (once again, I'm leaving the point open whether they achieve their prevalence among taxi drivers because of actual quality or because first a Mercedes taxi is expected these days and second Mercedes offers decent discounts) than posing the typical American problem of "brand-dilution". I do not follow your argument that higher taxi concessions lead to expensive cars, contrarily if I have to pay a lot of money to the state I'm likely to have less money for the car. And while fares are possibly more expensive than in the US, taxi driving is not exactly a business to become phenomenally rich in Germany either. But on taxis I agree with your general point that the whole package deal is going to matter most with the added point that the customers expect a Mercedes these days. As to your point "that is actually a joke inside Germany" – I'm sorry, but it just isn't. Maybe it is in Wolfsburg and among militant BMW drivers. Speaking of Wolfsburg, as Americans know Volkswagen is not exactly a harbinger of quality either (in this case Germans perceive Volskwagens as more reliable than they are, while Americans seem to perceive them as less reliable than they are).

You are also vastly exaggerating the connection of K-A's desire to have his car manufactured in Germany because his American mind wants a "German luxury car" with the problem of German nationalism. And trust me, as a German from a "caucasian" German mother and an African father I have enough to say about that. I fully agree that Germany has its issues with immigration and the treatment of foreigners, but it is not exactly all fine and dandy in regard to these issues in the US either.

I also do not agree with your arguments as to the quality of German engineering in general. Lots of stuff is not made in Germany, some is and some of that is good and some of that is bad. We have a lot of very successful and very good engineering – mostly these days in the industrial sector, not so much in the consumer good sectors. Germany plainly is not "well behind the US in many things". I do not understand Germany as a technically advanced society (and I do not think our American friends do either), but the argument that we are vastly behind is just as baseless.

How and why you get into issues like physician shortages, weapons manufacturing, terrorism, and ultimately of course Hitler in this context is beyond me. Maybe K-A's idealization of Germany as a Mercedes manufacturing country is wrong, but with all due respect, your pessimistic view of the entire country is also rather misguided.

Best regards,
Hannes

LILBENZ230

Old thread.. but anyone who has followed sknight on MBWorld to any degree will know that he is a very angry man. No one has quite figured out exactly the source of the anger, but it is present in every post.

Glyn M Ruck

Indeed - after many arguments he has been MIA. He got angry with me when I pointed out that the Turkish & other foreign labour force in German plants was no better than ours in SA etc.

Where I disagree somewhat with people on this thread is that skill of labour does effect end product quality as do local suppliers. e.g. plasticwork made in some places is better than others. Some fabrics & stitching are better in some plants. Leatherwork is much better from some plants than others because it is local. I'll put SA leatherwork ahead of anything Benz offers from elsewhere.

LILBENZ230

I agree. There may be no difference in how tightly the car is screwed together because the robots/people can be programmed/trained to tighten bolts and screws to a specific amount. However, if the suppliers are different there damn well can be a difference in quality. Lest we forget the Behr vs Valeo radiator and Valeo vs Bosch alternator debacles for the W203.

altawila

you guys realize they are robots building these cars not people right? who cares where they are assembled, as long as the design team is german, or of german influence. thats what we pay for.

Glyn M Ruck

Robots build the tin work. People assemble the cars

Glyn M Ruck

Absolutely - and the plastic work on a Shanghai GM Buick is better finished off than a US one. The Chinese fixed up all the crud.

An SA dash top won't crack in the sun because it has been UV tested backwards. A European dash top will crack in time etc.

European door pulls break. Others don't etc.

acr2001

Please don't use the words "valeo" and "alternator" in thr same sentence. I could have a stroke!!! There's a thread kicking around somewhere on the 203 forum with pictures of my Valeo alternator. 5 years old. 30k miles. The winding pack in it rusted through and melted!!!!! It was literally disintegrating!

Glyn M Ruck

Yes - they are crap! a Quality issue! No Valeo Alternators or Radiators have ever been fitted to SA production as an example. Bosch & Behr have plants right here.

acr2001

I'm becoming more and more happy that I have an SA built 204.

MBNUT1

This doesn't make a lick of sense. You were the one who posted the assembly of the E Class. As I recalled not a lot of craftsmanship involved that would have tapped into anybody's heritage. Your car is in no way like my father's Ponton which I could rightly imagine the craftsmen building the car.

A 500E or an AMG engine on the otherhand might be a different story.

I welcome the assembly of them in the US. Anything to push our trade deficit in the right direction and anything that will make the car more affordable to maintain down the rode (ie utilization of american parts) is fine by me. If I rented my cars I might feel differently.
Additonally it isn't like the made in Germany cars guarenteed any great quality. Look at the early 2000's cars. What truly distinguishes the car's is Mercede's spin on the engineering and based on your complaints about the W212 sport suspension Mercedes is screwing the pooch in some instances there as well.
You like I just have to face the fact that this is not the same company that built the 300sl and like.
Does that mean that they don't still sell the best car's in the world? In a word no I think that they still do. There is no other car that I would prefer to own than a Mercedes..

K-A

I'm not against it on a technical or economical level at all. I just enjoy knowing that my German Benz was built in Germany, not in Alabama. It's a personal preference thing. I feel the same about VW's being built in Mexico, or GM's being built in Canada or Mexico, etc.

MBNUT1

I think the Mercedes "mystique" is most certainly a function of it's origins being in Germany. At one point Germany did corner the market on quality of engineering and manufacturing. As the world has become more globalized this is no longer the case. In all likelyhood some dude named Rashid in Bangalore did the stress analysis for the E-Class chassis.

splinter

Precisely.

Though pleased our AMG was screwed together in Affalterbach, am also proud my ‘11 NAFTA GMC rolled off the line in Indiana.
Absolutely trouble-free after 200+ miles. :D