Sully

I find it difficult that you're looking for faithful audio reproduction and looking at Boss equipment. The ratings that their equipment is measured at is way into clipping, and it generally lacks accuracy at moderate to high volume.

I have the Audio 20 system in my car, and I've run the front sets of speakers to an Oscilloscope (verified with at 1kHz and 50Hz). There's no clipping in the signal, however there is visible (and audible) distortion about 80% of full volume. The audible distortion wasn't obviously evident with the stock speakers, but is noticeable with the upgraded speakers that I have installed.

With respect to signal sensing to turn on remote devices, I've used two processors and both will turn on even with the stock head unit off. They were both setup in signal sensing mode and would turn off about a min after the car was switched off. The first was an Audison Bit one running firmware 1.5.0, and the other a Mosconi 6to8 DSP (I can't remember the firmware version). This leads me to believe that there is a signal being sent albeit small, while the HU is off.

I've listened to quite a few vehicles with the Infinity equipment installed, including vehicles sponsored by Infinity at several sound quality competitions. My conclusion is that the Infinity equipment, particularly their speakers require too much processing to get the sound right, and isn't linear in the way that it handles changes in signal amplitude. There are many other options that may require a little more work, but will give far superior sound.

aznmode

Sully thanks for the input. I really just wanted a little bit more bass. Not planning to upgrade the fronts or rears speakers. I don't blast my music too loud either. And because the Boss can be more discrete and will rarely take up trunk space is what I like about it.

janusgrimnitz

In China the price for this one is 450 bucks.. WTF!

Acapulco Bill

Back with the first measurements of an Infinity Kappa install, a calibrated SPL meter, on slow response (which is average SPL, not peak which is +10 dB), read 104 dB when I made the screenshot, there were 106 and 107 dB registers. (Measured at the driver's position, ear-level).

So 116 dB on peaks is attainable with the Infinity Kappa install on the stock Audio20 headunit, a very reasonable upgrade for the investment, plus the improvement in sound quality!

I will try and record some unfiltered white noise from a test generator (where there is an equal mathematical distribution of all frequencies), and get the 1/3 Octave Display running to see how "flat" and accurate the reproduction is, before involving the true Parametric Equalizer found in the Engineering Mode of the Audio20 to tweak for audiophile-flat response.

KCaudell

The Infinity 6030cs component system is a nice mid-bass driver. The tweeter on the other hand reminds me why I dislike Infinity. Their tweeters always seem very harsh to me. They seem to be very bright and create an almost metallic sound.

Today I took delivery of a pair of Alpine SPS-110TW. Ahhhhhh....... the best $45 I've spent yet. The high end smoothed out and they sound awesome with the Infinity components.... sans tweeter. I believe I will have to boost the treble in the crossover to +3db though as these are not as efficient with an 88db vs. 92db sensitivity.

Plus, the tweeter fits in the stock A pillar holder perfectly. It's being held in with some Loctite double sided tape that has some weight to it. Great stuff. Pics attached of the tweeter fit.

My system is finally coming together.

stilolos

I'm really looking to doing this upgrade but the availability of the recommended speakers in the uk is quite rare and costly. Infinity have a variety of speakers of the same size such as the 65.9/60.7 kappa or 6500cx/6030cs reference. All of these speakers are more within my budget but are any of them as good a sound and fit as the legendary 60.9? Many thanks.

stilolos

After reading up more, the 60.9 has been discontinued and the price of finding a pair is quite high. 60.11 is the newer model but a bit out of my price bracket. Most of the infinity speakers are 2 ohms so would any set do and also would it be better to get get coaxials or go all out and go for components. I'm only doing front speakers. Thanks.

stilolos

I guess this thread is dead but anyhow, I've opted for the newest kappa 60.11cs and will get to work on installing them when I get back from holiday.

Wawatusi

I have a 2011 with the audio 20 and the nav 20 (nav +4 umi), I am having focal polyglass v170's installed front, rear, jl, subs I'm the trunk, with an alpine PDX-5 amp.


Reading through this very informative thread, I have one nagging question. Where is this iPod amp, and how can I tell which one I have?


Note, playing around with I the iPhone and all it's possible inputs, I have not noticed any low volume situations.... The stock speakers, I can't tell if I have the amp at all or not.

Acapulco Bill

iPod amp only if you have the the iPod Integration Kit installed. Can you select tunes from the speedo display? If not, then no iPod amp.

If you are using a minijack and Aux input, is there are volume difference between playing the uPod/iPhone when the output volume is "8", and the same tune played from a CD inserted into the headunit?

Wawatusi

Is the ipod integration kit different than the umi that has both an iphone/pod connector and usb?

I have the tunes in the speedo.

I get the car back today, i'll run that volume test.


Thanks bill.

Btw if i have that ipod amp. Where would it be?

Acapulco Bill

If the tunes show up in the speedo you probably have the iPod integration kit. The iPod amplifier is located between the iPod Integration Kit module and the cable that goes to the iPod.

If you have a USB cable also, this is odd. The UMI is designed to display on the center dash screen.

Wawatusi

I have the umi that sticks to the top of the glovebox with a usb, ipod, and aux input.

I get the display for the songs on both the center and the speedo.


I guess im asking is does the umi need this amp? Is the umi different than the integration kit? I'll take pics and stuff when i get it back, and test some settings

Acapulco Bill

As far as I know, the UMI does not need the iPod Amplifier, but any MB dealership would (or should) know the answer. Good luck with your install.

Wawatusi

So got the system installed, and am in process of dialing it in set the parametric equalizer to flat, ran a simple iPhone rta app and set the LCD-1 to get a relatively flat output, tuned it a bit from there....

Gotta say it sounds pretty awesome, though not as loud as I expected, 96-100db.....


There's a significant feedback and thump until the radio starts up. I found a delay start relay I am going to add too prevent this...


Some pics..




Still have to mount and clean up the wires.








Set the crossover point at around 90, I find any higher the Focals sound a bit coffe canny. Lol.

Acapulco Bill

Strange that your system will only play to 100 dB with all 4 pairs of speakers plus that enormous sub. The Focals have about a 90dB/1 watt efficiency (vs 95 dB/1 watt for the Infinity Kappa's). Are you driving the Focals exclusively with the Audio20 or does the external amp provide enough power? Most of those 96-100dB actually come from the sub, turning off the sub and taking another dB measurement will reveal what SPL the Focal in-door units are producing.

Crossover points, is there a high-pass filter for the door woofers? Generally a higher bass low-pass crossover frequency (100-150 Hz) will produce the effect of less mid-range ring (as the coffee-can you describe). Maybe something is set wrong in the parametric equalizer, remembering that a mere 3dB boost doubles the wattage to a particular frequency, it is very easy to "over-adjust" this powerful capacity and cause resonances that normally go undisturbed.

Wawatusi

I'm running the pdx-5 which is 75wx4 +300x1 but it's closer to 100x4, 370x1, I fiddled with the lcq-1, and followed, or attempted to follow their guidelines to unhook the amp, turn up the volume all the way, and crank the gains until the "maximum" light flickers.... That didn't work as I had to back it off significantly...

I set the amps gain based on the 40hz tone method (play a 40 MHz tone slowly crank the gain until the sound of the tone changes, back it off to where it doesn't), then I matched the gains on the speaker at a little less....


I got it where it maxes out at 104db, (this is testing on an iPhone I have a better one on order), it sounds much better, but it has a little distortion towards the top of the volume, but I would think I had more range and power here, that's where I'm stumped.


Since the lcq-1 has it's own equalizer, I set the parametric to flat, which provided for the best sound so far compared to the other settings found throughout these forums.


Speakers are rated at 60watts, I'm over driving them a little I know, but it just seems I should be able to approach 110db without distortion, like I said, I can hit 104 now with some distortion, but have to back it down to about 99-100 or so to get rid of it....


Box isn't as big as it looks, it's a sealed enclosure with two tens and a 2 ohm load, I is ten to everything from blues, jazz, country, to punk rock, no hip hop, et all.... When i have it at below distortion levels the sound performs nearly as well as my b&w's in the home.... I'm pleased with the sound, and maybe the volume is what it is, it just seems to me that it's not optimized.


I saw a neat way to set gains via an oscilloscope, haven't found a shop that has any idea what I am talking about, lol

Acapulco Bill

With the 90 dB/1 watt efficiency of the Focals, 1 driver x 75 watts translates to 108 dB peaks. This X 4 speakers would give about 112 dB peak. Since average SPL is 10 dB less than the peaks, 102 dB would be about the maximum the Focals can manage without the sub. Again recommend turning off (or turn down) the sub and taking another measurement. The iPhone and others measure average SPL, not peak.

To add another 3dB, not counting the subwoofer, would require 150Wx4.

The Bowers & Wilkins, especially the 800 series, are certainly formidable loudspeakers. However the best balanced sound from a B&W speaker IMHO is from the Zeppelin Air, that uses the same Diamond tweeter, and listening close-in, has an excellent sound stage.

Wawatusi

The app has fast/slow, and peak readings, but i suspect it may not only be less than completely accurate but may have trouble itself measuring over the 104 or wherever its at.

It seems by your exert explanation i may be in the wheelhouse with the system as far as how loud it will play before distortion sets in. When I get the better spl meter i'll try the test without the subs. They are easy enough to hook up and disconnect.


Thanks for your help and expertise on this, i appreciate it, sir.

Wawatusi

I think i'm doing ok.





Of course i'm enjoying it at a more reasonable level.

Acapulco Bill

@Wawatusi: I suspect that most of the SPL is from the sub, could you please just take a reading of the door speakers from the same position with the sub turned off? Just curious, thanks!

Wawatusi

Sub was off. I followed your suggestions.... It seemed just playing around with the gains on the amp, and the lcq-1 did the trick. It was tricky as there was a proper balance. I was surprised by the reading. So surprised I am waiting on another SPL meter to borrow to double check the results. That said. The iphone spl meter is not good for more than say 104db.

Acapulco Bill

Interesting, and very impressive. I have another SPL meter somewhere and will take another reading in January as I am on a month-long trip. BTW how's the SOUND?

Acapulco Bill

codeblue5007 sent me a private message with an interesting question, probably others wondered the same:

2008 C300 4Matic Sport retrofit with Infinity speakers

Bill, I read and took notes on the Vic Viper and Akadan threads, the latter with your excellent comments on audio the way it used to be and the current boom and tizz sound.

Could you please confirm that the the rears you recommend are the Infinity 6032si shallow mount and that the fronts are the 60.9cs (which are 4 ohms as opposed to 2)?

Thank you in advance.

Leo

Yes, those are the two sets to purchase. Now I wonder... when I had mine installed, I never immediately noticed a difference in volume, although in theory a 2 ohm speaker can draw double the amperage from a transistor amp configuration as a 4 ohm (and this compared to the stock 8 ohm OEM drivers). Supposedly the fronts would be 3 dB louder, as both are rated as 93 dB/1 watt efficiency.

The fader in the Audio 20 headunit is digital, meaning that there are 4 output amplifier channels. Therefore the 60.9's would receive up to 100 watts peak and the rears 6032si's about 50 watts peak. Average maximum RMS is generally 1/10 the peak output, so this would equate to 103 dB from each front speaker and 100 dB from each rear speaker. My simplistic SPL measurement of 106 dB basically confirms these levels.

If after installation the sound appears to only come from the front speakers, in the "Sound" section the "Bal/Fad" Fader can be adjusted towards the rear speakers, just 2 or 3 notches should be enough. IMO the best position would be when the sound seems to be headphone-like (only for the driver of course). Since the tweeter and woofer on the passenger side fire more directly into the driver's right ear, I have the Balance adjusted a notch or two towards the left actually. Play with this and adjust to your liking. Good listening!

Wawatusi

Incredible, The Focals are really something. I used to run a ! series MB quarts Q series in my truck (before they were bought by hifonics), And the sound of the focals, with the jbl sub is quite nice, even nicer than the truck.

I run arcam, rega, and monitor audio in my office, and usually view car audio as a compromise, I was surprised once I flattened the output, and got the gains right how well it sounded... and once it started breaking in, they really became musical.