C-Class production moved to Africa?
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2011 C300 4matic sport
Safesphere, you keep referring to "them" who want "made in Germany". VW seems to have figured it out in that they promote in their ads "german engineering" rather than dwell on the fact that the car was made in Mexico. Actually the "made in the USA" moniker has made a comeback now that people cry about outsourcing and VW and MB are using their US plants as selling points with the US market.
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Acura TL-S 2002
Safesphere, you keep referring to "them" who want "made in Germany". VW seems to have figured it out in that they promote in their ads "german engineering" rather than dwell on the fact that the car was made in Mexico. Actually the "made in the USA" moniker has made a comeback now that people cry about outsourcing and VW and MB are using their US plants as selling points with the US market.
On your second point, I also agree that "Made in the USA" has a certain patriotic appeal, as well as a history of quality engineering and production in many segments. The biggest competition the USA has is in smaller cars, so when quality foreign brands excelling in this segment move to the States, it is a win-win for everyone. Some Hondas have a higher % of American parts than some Fords.
Although on my American designed and made Acura TL-S, the transmission (made in Japan) failed and was replaced at 26k miles, was later recalled, and now failed again at 78k miles (before even the first 105k-mile tune-up) rendering the car dead in the garage. The driver seat warmer fried with the $1,000 cost prohibitive repair. The left rear door stopped opening. The body is rusting heavily around the wheels (the car has only 78k miles on it). The self dimming rear view mirror burned out on the sun, and while replacing it the dealer broke the windshield, but did replace it for free. The leather on the driver seat is heavily worn out. The handle on the right rear door got warped of the heat, I assume. But other than all this, it is great, I love it, and it breaks my heart to junkyard it, as I get emotionally attached to my cars like to live pets.
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Acura TL-S 2002
If we now agree that the label generates a "superficial perception", we can agree to dismiss its importance. For the superficial perceivers out there who are hung up on such status issues, I suggest dismissing the importance of their approval and enjoying the car for yourself for what it is.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Glyn, this is interesting. In what way do you feel the SA leather is better? Softer perhaps? How can I tell the difference?
Generally, regular leather on MB (like C or E Class) is not inspiring. Dealers hate to stock it, as most people prefer to go with MB Tex for nearly 2 grand less.
However, personally I prefer leather even of this quality and even at such an extra expense. Is there any way to request SA leather in the order?
Thanks for your help!
Generally, regular leather on MB (like C or E Class) is not inspiring. Dealers hate to stock it, as most people prefer to go with MB Tex for nearly 2 grand less.
However, personally I prefer leather even of this quality and even at such an extra expense. Is there any way to request SA leather in the order?
Thanks for your help!
The surface of SA leather is less pebbled/grained than European leather - the easiest visual differentiator. Benz & BMW love it for premium models but we get it in all but the "Classic" C Classes built here. It wears far better than European leather. Does not develop creases all over the place & is treated for hot countries & a lot of sun exposure - it's not softer. There is no way in the Benz system to order it. MBTex or "taxi leder" as it is known in Germany is considered low rent here & only bought/specified by farmers. No one in SA really wants other than a full leather Benz. The double stitching on leather looks so much better than MBTex & rouched door panels etc. SA cars are generally better appointed than US ones but we pay a lot more for them than you do. US delivered cars are built to a sticker price & you have packages. We just tick the box & get what we want - and pay!
Here is an 8 year old SA seat in my W203.
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Acura TL-S 2002
Wow, this looks like new! What is the mileage on the car?
So how did you get it in the C Class? Thanks for the info!
So how did you get it in the C Class? Thanks for the info!
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Another round of ICE
Yes, this has been exactly my point! I value everyone's opinion here and if you guys told me the SA assembly were indeed better, I would dismiss the importance of the origin, but you did not. So as it stands, everything else being equal, the German build wins by a thin margin of having a superficial status appeal, important for some people while insignificant for most.
Glynn, could you please remind us of the specific quality awards the SA plant earned?
Thanks!
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LOL....I specifically tried to avoid informing you of SA's superior quality record, as you asked us not to make this about quality in your first post!! Are we reaching a violent agreement?
Glynn, could you please remind us of the specific quality awards the SA plant earned?
Glynn, could you please remind us of the specific quality awards the SA plant earned?
You can have a German one built with majority Turkish labour or an SA one with our labour. Quality is generally equal although I prefer SA leather & have seen some poor paintwork on a few German built units. Bad orange peel.
Funnily enough if I could choose a plant for C Class build it would probably be Vietnam. I would be very happy with a car assembled in Vietnam. Their attention to detail in that plant is stunning - almost fanatical.
Funnily enough if I could choose a plant for C Class build it would probably be Vietnam. I would be very happy with a car assembled in Vietnam. Their attention to detail in that plant is stunning - almost fanatical.
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Another round of ICE
This is what he said earlier:
No, nothing violent. Forget about the awards, simply answer these questions. Consider you are in a market for a new C300 and your dealer has two, one German, and one from SA, otherwise exactly the same both built to your specs. (1) Which one would you buy? And (2), roughly how much of a $ insentive would convince you to buy the other one instead. For example, you may say, I prefer German, but they are so close that give me a hundred bucks and I would go for SA. Or you may say, I prefer SA and it is so much beter that the dealer would have to give me at least a grand before I agree to take the German build. This would make your opinion clearly quantified, the end of discussion.
No, nothing violent. Forget about the awards, simply answer these questions. Consider you are in a market for a new C300 and your dealer has two, one German, and one from SA, otherwise exactly the same both built to your specs. (1) Which one would you buy? And (2), roughly how much of a $ insentive would convince you to buy the other one instead. For example, you may say, I prefer German, but they are so close that give me a hundred bucks and I would go for SA. Or you may say, I prefer SA and it is so much beter that the dealer would have to give me at least a grand before I agree to take the German build. This would make your opinion clearly quantified, the end of discussion.
http://www.mercedes-benzsa.co.za/med...ality-studysm/
and take the one coming from the better performing plant, giving some weight to build date, unless the coincidence included equal "freshness". Quality performance could vary year-to-year, but there is no rationale for tying the decision to geography instead of to the best plant performance. Interestingly, for 2011, the German and South African plant had the identical performance in JDPower IQS, which is the measure of plant capability for assembly quality (versus design issues). So, this time, it's a coin toss. Circling back to your earlier premise, there is no basis for changing the price of the car and I would expect to pay, and would pay, the same for either of these essentially identical cars.
Last edited by Sportstick; Oct 19, 2011 at 04:49 PM.
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Acura TL-S 2002
This is the same as what I said:
In turn I would give you the amount I personally would pay for the "German" name: surely less than $,1000, but probably more than $100. To clarify, if a dealer had two identical 2012 C300 in stock today, provided both are exactly the same quality and are indistinguishable beyond the label, he could sell me the Geman one for about $350 more, give or take. However, if only the SA unit had superior leather, it would be enough for it to win. Unfortunately, if the car is not in stock, but must be ordered, there is no way to know what leather it will have.
In turn I would give you the amount I personally would pay for the "German" name: surely less than $,1000, but probably more than $100. To clarify, if a dealer had two identical 2012 C300 in stock today, provided both are exactly the same quality and are indistinguishable beyond the label, he could sell me the Geman one for about $350 more, give or take. However, if only the SA unit had superior leather, it would be enough for it to win. Unfortunately, if the car is not in stock, but must be ordered, there is no way to know what leather it will have.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Sorry - I don't want to stir - Sportstick answered his own question to me. We are very proud of our plant & can thank one Jürgen Erich Schrempp for that.
Want my real opinion that I can back up having been in all plants & we are only talking C Class.
My ranking as follows:
1) South Africa
2) Vietnam
3) China
4) Germany
5) Brazil
Please don't ask me for a long explanation but this is my considered opinion. See my profile regarding where I've been for 230 days a year for the last 20 years.
Want my real opinion that I can back up having been in all plants & we are only talking C Class.
My ranking as follows:
1) South Africa
2) Vietnam
3) China
4) Germany
5) Brazil
Please don't ask me for a long explanation but this is my considered opinion. See my profile regarding where I've been for 230 days a year for the last 20 years.
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Acura TL-S 2002
Glyn, thanks again for the info! Always educational. May I please ask you a few specific questions? Could you please clarify what you meant by the "Classic C Class" on which one could not get SA leather? Also, what is normally the origin of the engine and transmission on the SA built C Class? Finally, you first said you'd prefer Vietnam, but then SA, what changed your mind so quickly? Thank you again, Sir!
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Outside the US the C Class comes in three main versions. Classic, Elegance & Avantgarde & now with Blue Efficiency & CGI etc. tacked onto that.
Classics do not come standard with leather but even they can be ordered with it. Their base spec is MBTex & no wood or aluminium trim on doors etc. They are the bottom of the line. Elegance & Avantgarde are equal & priced identically. Elegance is more traditional in trim. Avantgarde as it suggests.
Regarding plants - I would prefer to be modest about SA but I have substantial evidence of durability over time. That said I would happily buy a Vietnamese assembled car. They do a fine job & body fit from unit one production has been better than some very early cars out of East London production. The Vietnamese run around every gap on every car with a dial gauge. So no real change of mind. I have never seen an SA assembled car get through QC with the passenger mirror not bolted on as we had on a German car on this forum the other day.
Please understand that my personal ranking reflects very slight differences in initial quality & faults over time. None of the plants are bad. They are very close.
SA production sources Engines from the Bad Cannstatt plant & Transmissions Rastatt, Gaggenue Plant, Germany. SA builds Benz Diesel Truck & Bus etc engines under license.
Peripherals such as Behr radiators, Bosch starter motors & alternators etc. are built here. Bodies are pressed here. Suspension components are made here, Mag wheels are produced by Tiger Wheels here, most trim is made here etc.
Classics do not come standard with leather but even they can be ordered with it. Their base spec is MBTex & no wood or aluminium trim on doors etc. They are the bottom of the line. Elegance & Avantgarde are equal & priced identically. Elegance is more traditional in trim. Avantgarde as it suggests.
Regarding plants - I would prefer to be modest about SA but I have substantial evidence of durability over time. That said I would happily buy a Vietnamese assembled car. They do a fine job & body fit from unit one production has been better than some very early cars out of East London production. The Vietnamese run around every gap on every car with a dial gauge. So no real change of mind. I have never seen an SA assembled car get through QC with the passenger mirror not bolted on as we had on a German car on this forum the other day.
Please understand that my personal ranking reflects very slight differences in initial quality & faults over time. None of the plants are bad. They are very close.
SA production sources Engines from the Bad Cannstatt plant & Transmissions Rastatt, Gaggenue Plant, Germany. SA builds Benz Diesel Truck & Bus etc engines under license.
Peripherals such as Behr radiators, Bosch starter motors & alternators etc. are built here. Bodies are pressed here. Suspension components are made here, Mag wheels are produced by Tiger Wheels here, most trim is made here etc.
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Confirmed with my dealer that, as mentioned by people in this forum, there are no discounts based on geography.
Update to my opening post: a small number of 2012 extra allocations for C300 is still coming for Germany (currently with the production date at the end of February).
Update to my opening post: a small number of 2012 extra allocations for C300 is still coming for Germany (currently with the production date at the end of February).
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Great hypothetical. I would quickly check for current information, such as:
http://www.mercedes-benzsa.co.za/med...ality-studysm/
[...]
http://www.mercedes-benzsa.co.za/med...ality-studysm/
[...]
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Does anyone know where the current allocation of C250s is coming from? I have not checked the sticker on the ones I have seen at the dealer.
I think I am a couple of weeks away from taking the plunge, and would prefer a German built car (just a personal preference) - and am curious as to what my odds are. I am planning on adding the rear sunshade, which is a special order option - I wonder if this will make a difference?
I think I am a couple of weeks away from taking the plunge, and would prefer a German built car (just a personal preference) - and am curious as to what my odds are. I am planning on adding the rear sunshade, which is a special order option - I wonder if this will make a difference?
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I think its the same as before...a mixture of the two German plants and the South African plant. Someone else can confirm though..
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Also note that the sunshade is $440 plus $250 for special order.
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The sunshade will not affect the geography. The German build is an option 07P specified in the order just like any other option. However, your dealer must have allocation for Germany (or trade with another dealer) before he could use this option. Other locations, like South Africa, do not have an option number and cannot be specified directly in the order.
Also note that the sunshade is $440 plus $250 for special order.
Also note that the sunshade is $440 plus $250 for special order.
I knew about the special order charge. I got them down about 10% over MSRP, so that covers that
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