jctevere

Well, if any of you guys are active on the forum, you have probably seen me rant and complain about how dealers stupidly fill our vehicles (4matics) up with too much oil, but also, use the WRONG oil. I have reached out to my connections with generation benz and finally received a response yesterday. She has confirmed what I had suspected, and is not really good news to me, I was kind of hoping I would be wrong. Here is the message:

"Posted by MB_Abby on 11.04.11 at 04:33 pm | 0 Likes
Hi jctevere,

I have checked with our Engineering team here, and both Mobil 1 0W-40 and Mobil 1 5W-40 are recommended for your vehicle. You are correct that the ESP version is for diesel vehicles only. Thank you for sharing your concerns. I have passed along your comments to our After-Sales team, who is responsible for Service and Maintenance.

Abby"

In another message, she also confirmed that 4matic w204's have less capacity than rwd for oil, and have also passed on that information to the after-sales team to clarify with dealers (not sure about 2012 or coupes). But in this message, the good news is that Mobil 1 0w-40 is still ok and recommended for our vehicle. So I will continue to use this since its cheaper, much easier to find, and my car runs much better with it and is more suited to my environmental needs.

However, MB spec 229.51 is a diesel spec only, and 5w-40 with ESP protection falls into the category. However, there appears to be two different 5w-40 formulas, one with turbo diesel formula the other with ESP formula M. Formula M is what the dealers use, but it still complies with MB spec 229.51, which again, is a diesel oil spec. As far as our M272 engines go in the w204, we are supposed to use 229.5 spec. Which is what the 0w-40 Mobil 1 oil conforms to. Even if you go as far to enter in your model w204 in Mobil 1's site, you get that 0w-40 is recommended, not 5w-40...

Even though it says, "Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 is engineered to help prolong the life and maintain the efficiency of emission systems in both diesel and gasoline powered automobiles that require an oil that is approved against MB 229.51 specification." and shows that it CAN be used in gasoline powered cars, it conforms to a diesel spec, and in my book, and judging from personal experience, isn't as good as 0w-40.

Moral of this post, insist you get 0w-40 oil and not 5w-40 ESP if you go to the dealer, and use 0w-40 Mobil 1 if you do it yourself. Also, 4matic w204's only have 7.6 qt capacity (approx) and not the 8.5qt capacity (approx) that the rwd counterparts have...

sagar350z

Great post! Thanks for the info!

kjb55

Phenomenal post! This should be posted in many of the other forums as well.

Carsy

ESP 5W 30

I use Mobil ESP 5w30 in my diesel . The specs say that it is also compatable with petrol vehicles.

Thanks for the post.


Product Description

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 is an advanced performance synthetic engine oil designed to provide exceptional cleaning power, wear protection and overall performance. Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has been expertly engineered to help prolong the life and maintain the efficiency of Car Emission Reduction Systems in both diesel and gasoline powered automobiles. Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 exceeds the requirements of many leading industry and car manufacturers' standards required for newer modern diesel and gasoline powered passenger car engines.



Features and Benefits

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 is made with a proprietary blend of leading edge components formulated to be fully compatible with the latest Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF's) and Gasoline Catalytic Converters (CAT's). Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has been designed to deliver outstanding performance and protection in conjunction with improved fuel economy. Key features and benefits include:




Features
Advantages and Potential Benefits
Low Ash Content Helps to reduce particulate build up in Diesel Particulate Filters
Low Sulphur and Phosphorous content Helps to reduce poisoning of Gasoline Catalytic Converters
Active cleaning agents Reduces deposits and sludge build-up to enable long and clean engine life
Outstanding thermal and oxidation stability Reduces oil ageing allowing extended drain interval protection
Low oil consumption Less hydrocarbon pollution
Enhanced frictional properties Greater fuel economy
Excellent low temperature capabilities Quick cold weather starting and ultra fast protection
Extended engine and electrical system life

Applications

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 is recommended for all types of modern automobile engines, especially the high-performance gasoline and diesel engines found in the latest passenger cars, SUVs and light vans.

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 is especially suitable for extreme conditions, where conventional oil often cannot perform
It is not recommended for 2-Cycle or aviation engines, unless specifically approved by the manufacturer.


Back to Top

Specifications and Approvals

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 meets or exceeds the following industry specifications:

ACEA C2/C3, A3/B3/B4
ACEA (Meets Engine Test Requirements) A5/B5
API (Meets Engine Test Requirements) SL / SM
API CF


Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has the following builder approvals:

BMW Longlife 04
Mercedes Benz MB-Approval 229.31/229.51
Volkswagen (Gasoline / Diesel) 504.00 / 507.00
Peugeot Citroen Automobiles E06-N3 / D06-N3


Also recommended for use in applications requiring

Volkswagen (Gasoline) 502 00 / 503 00 / 503 01
Volkswagen^ (Diesel) 505 00 / 506 00 / 506.01
^All VW engines with the exception of Unit-Injector / Pump-Duse TDI without Longlife Service and without DPF between 1999-2003 and R5/V10-TDi before model year 2006


Typical Properties

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30

SAE Grade 5W-30
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40ºC 72.8
cSt @ 100ºC 12.1
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 164
Sulphated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 0.6
HTHS Viscosity, mPa·s @ 150ºC, ASTM D4683 3.58
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -45
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 254
Density @ 15ºC, kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.850




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Health and Safety

Based on available information, this product is not expected to produce adverse effects on health when used for the applications referred to above and the recommendations provided in the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) are followed. MSDS's are available upon request through your sales contact office, or via the Internet. This product should not be used for purposes other than the applications referred to above. If disposing of used product, take care to protect the environment.

The Mobil logotype, the Pegasus design and "Mobil 1" are trademarks of Exxon Mobil Corporation, or one of its subsidiaries.

3-2007



Mobil Oil Australia Pty Ltd
A.B.N. 88 004 052 984
12 Riverside Quay
Southbank Vic 3006
+61 3 8633 8444
http://www.exxonmobil.com

Due to continual product research and development, the information contained herein is subject to change without notification. Typical Properties may vary slightly. © 2007 Exxon Mobil Corporation. All rights reserved.

Glyn M Ruck

It's quite simple. Only use 229.5 approved oils in a petrol Benz engine. The issues of additive content, ash level & HTHS (high temperature high shear) have been discussed ad nauseum.

jctevere

Thanks for clarification Glynn. I was fairly certain about my assumptions, but wanted "official" word.

When I was talking about liking 0w-40 better than 5w-40, I was referring to the knocking noise on startup (the 5w-40 is very apparent) and we have narrowed down this noise to low oil pressure on startup. Since 0w-40 is not as thick at colder temperatures, I don't get this noise on startup. Not to mention, 0w-40 is much cheaper than 5w-40 (especially in bulk quantities and/or common sales).

I also found that the lifters settle much quicker (the rpms settle quicker on startup). So I am definitely going to switch to 0w-40 on next oil change and remain on that.

kevink2

Some confusion there, but yes, there are 2 different Mobil-1 5W-40 formulas:

Mobil1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 229.51

Mobil1 Formula M 5W-40 229.5


That's because Mobil does not generally offer the Formula M 5W-40 oil by the quart for the public.

What Abby said regarding oil choice, was what the local dealer practiced from 2008 to last year. Now they fill the big tanks with the Diesel version of Mobil1, and "pump it in" for both gas and diesel engines. Time for the local dealer to contact MB central.

Per Glenn's note, the 2008 4MATIC Lux gets 229.5 approved Castrol 0W-30 ... for someone that likes to start and go after car sits in 10-20F winter days. Trip gas milage went up 2mpg's after changing from M1 0W-40.

.

Glyn M Ruck

Looks like the dealer needs a shake up. In SA where we have quite a large diesel population all dealers carry both 229.5 & 229.51 oils since they were made mutually exclusive by ash spec. Part of the factory rep's check list when calling on dealers here.

Different viscometrics can have quite a marked influence on fuel consumption over 10 & 20 kilometers from a cold start as can friction modifiers. When energy conserving oils became the rage I ran a dyno test programme for a year to back advertising claims we wanted to make. Comparison in those days was between a conventional 20W-50 & a friction modified 15W-40. Typical results at over 90% confidence were 7% over first 10Km from a cold start. 3.8% over the second 10Km's to 20 Km's with about 2% fuel saving fully warmed up.

Carsy

I would be interested to know what the practical difference with running the 229.51 oil in a petrol engine compared with the 229.5 ?. It is anything to do with bearing loads, combustion temps, combustion pressures , service intervals , carbon deposits ect?.

Why would 229.51 oils be detrimental to a petrol engine ?.

I would have thought a oil with low ash would be benificial in lengthening the life of all catalytic convertors.

Interesting subject.

lkfoster

+1

I have noticed the same thing with my C55 while cold when the dealer used 5w-40. And this was "cold" in Arizona, which would be summer conditions in many other places.

kevink2

In the case of the local MB dealer, it was just a matter of cost saving and consolidation. Not the 1st time there was an oil policy change there, and perhaps MBUSA.

Nice write-up by Glenn, as usual. No true "energy conserving" oils allowed for the W204's. The 0W-30 Castrol is a close relative, with a 229.5 & ACEA A3 rating.

Note that about 40% of the allowed 229.5 oils on the big 229.5 list are xW-30's, vs the other 60% xW-40's. (Note x= 0 or 5) All people in cold northern climates should be running an approved 0W30, imho.

.

Glyn M Ruck

JC - 229.51 = < 0.8% ash. 229.5 = >0.8% to max 1.6% ash.
- Ash is a measure of additive content.
- Benz has decreed that no one formulation will/can meet both specs.
- 229.51 oils do not have to pass HTHS. (lower quality base oils can be used)

The largest threat to a Benz petrol engine running 229.51 oils is cam & tappet wear due to poor HTHS performance & low NATR. (Net additive treat rate) over oil change interval. Petrol engines run far more severe cams at higher RPM. The diesel combustion time limits max RPM.

On top of this petrol engines require low temperature deposit control. Diesel engines require high temperature deposit & sludge control.

There is no such thing as a goof proof oil.

kevink2

Originally Posted by jctevere
Thanks for clarification Glynn. I was fairly certain about my assumptions, but wanted "official" word.

When I was talking about liking 0w-40 better than 5w-40, I was referring to the knocking noise on startup (the 5w-40 is very apparent) and we have narrowed down this noise to low oil pressure on startup. Since 0w-40 is not as thick at colder temperatures, I don't get this noise on startup. Not to mention, 0w-40 is much cheaper than 5w-40 (especially in bulk quantities and/or common sales).

I also found that the lifters settle much quicker (the rpms settle quicker on startup). So I am definitely going to switch to 0w-40 on next oil change and remain on that.

I believe the experiences of both of you, regarding lifter noise at cold start. It's just hard for me to convince myself, based on theory. The inference is that there is a significant flow difference between the two oils, after the pressure relief valve and oil filter, at a typical lower temperature.

The difference between the 5W and the 0W shows primarily at very low temperatures, like about -40C where some spec's are rated.

There is a viscosity predicting program, based on the non-linear visc vs temp curve that exists between 40C and 100C.

Viscosity Predicting based on 40C & 100C values

I used this calculator to estimate oil viscosity at 0 degC (32 degF). The viscositys in cSt were:

357 for M1 0W-40
403 for M1 5W-40

For what it's worth, the numbers vary by about 13%.

Looking for Dr Oil here, Glyn Ruck. What do you think, and how valid is the calculator outside the 40C - 100C range?

.

Carsy

Glyn,
Thanks for the explanation. its appreciated.

One more question !! My MB mechanic advised me when I bought the car to use
Mobil ESP 5w30 which I have been doing. The car does not have a Particulate Filter so I have always wondered whether it may be of increased benifit to use another oil, ie providing more protection.?. The only difference with other specs is that the Mobil ESP 5w30 has the longer service life.

I have met a small supplier locally who can supply Fuchs Titan GT1 229.51 SAE 5W-30 ( first fill oil in OM642) oil at a better price. Do you have any advice?

kevink2

Carsy,

Seems like just a few of us use an xW-30 oils ... many use M1 0W40, or a dealer fill of 5W-40. I had an image of Oz as being on the hot side (Road Warrior Influence).

Curious why your mechanic recomended the 229.51 5W-30, vs a -40W ?

.

Musikmann

For the last 2-3 oil changes my dealer has used Mobil1 Formula M 5W40 but I was confused and thought it was the ESP variant. Since I was using/leaking, I bought ESP for the makeup quarts. After further research I went as far as contacting MBUSA and complained that my dealer was using the wrong oil. They investigated and got back to me stating that they were using the correct stuff (non-ESP).

A couple of years ago Mobil1 was bottling the Formula M in quarts and I bought a case of 6 through an online vendor. In the mean time I have had my leaking valve cover gaskets fixed and I'm hopeful that my consumption has slowed to the point that my 2-3 remaining quarts will get me by.

Since I'm **** about mixing viscosities (dealer says to use 0W40), and if I need to add oil after my stash is exhausted, I'll just drive to the nearest dealer and take a quart bottle with me.

lkfoster

It's a vicious lie propagated by their tourism people. I spent 6 months in rural Victoria and found that it can and does snow there. That, and I never once saw a shrimp on a barbie.

Musikmann

And from what I understand, Foster's is one of their least favorite beers.

kevink2

Do you have a diesel?

--------------------------

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Carsy

Aust. is the same size as the continental USA & is as diverse. Good snow fields Vs the sub tropical north.

Plenty of prawns in the warmer areas. We have fresh local available prawns all year round in NSW I agree about Fosters ..there are much better beers about.

Where were you in rural Vic ?

Glyn M Ruck

Hi Kevin,
Got your PM. This looks so simple but it is not in reality & is engine design dependent & base oil/formulation dependent. Let's define what we are talking about.

Time taken from cold/ambient start for the lifters on some engines with some oils to achieve zero lash - Yes?

I will try & keep this simple & will probably fail.

Oil companies for years tried to sell the public on mutigrade oil pumping around engines more quickly than monogrades at ambient start. The counter to this is that modern engines run positive displacement oil pumps & unless cavitation is taking place on the input side of the pump, which is not the case with good design & oil with the desired viscometrics, this is not really true in the "normal" ambient range. Things can get very different rheologically at very low temperatures hence the use of cold cranking simulators & other shear measurement cold & equally the HTHS consideration at high temperatures and under abnormal shear stress (that was not fully appreciated in the early days) in formulation design. Yes there is an oil pressure relief valve/bypass that requires some but minor consideration under normal conditions.

Your viscosity predictor which I have not studied in detail will be flat lining the viscosity plot for both lubricants on the standard kinematic log scale to predict viscosity with no consideration of shear stress thinning (or for that matter shear or pressure thickening) which is the real issue here and what actual engine components “see” to greatly varying degrees dependent on shear at that respective interface (including the oil pump). Engine oils are non-Newtonian fluids & change in viscosity due to temperature considerations & shear stress.

- Different base oils thin at varying rates due to temperature & shear stress.
- VI Improvers/Viscosity modifiers (USA) thin drastically under shear stress.
- Both can thicken under severe pressure – not really a major issue here.
- This makes their selection so crucial for formulators.

The next issue is the behaviour of oils through different types & areas of filter media – but that is a discussion for another day. The M+H “fleece” blown polyester filter is excellent in this regard. Minimum flow constraint/pressure drop across the media with maximum efficacy.

My M112 engine at 65,000Km’s/40K miles displays no apparent lifter noise at ambient start with SAE 0W-40 229.5 Mobil 1, our own commercial 229.5 SAE 5W-40 or our 229.5 DTM Racing Formulation SAE 5W-30 which is in the car at present & wear rates are all similar because the engine never runs at over 90% of maximum for extended periods & is never thrashed hard enough to display differences in these formulations. Change interval is 15,000Km or 9.3K miles so the oil charge is not being stressed.

So what does all this mean to us lay people? Viscosity on the bottle is not a good way to predict the lifter noise at start in some M272 engines under some ambient conditions. Better to find a 229.5 product that gives nice silent starts in your situation and stick to it.

I could write a whole thesis on this subject. I hope this helps.

Musikmann

No I don't kevink2 and maybe that is why I got confused. The labels on the bottles of Mobil1 5W40 ESP Formula M I have state something like "Meets MB spec 229.51 and is approved for use in both gasoline and diesel engines."

My take on that is that Mobil and MB initially thought it was, and then like so many other things, later changed their minds!

Glyn M Ruck

No - it is only suitable for Benz diesel engines & some other manufacturers gasoline engines.

Glyn M Ruck

JC - any 229.51 approved 5W-30 or 5W40 will give equal wear performance in your engine over the recommended drain interval. Those are the joys of the Benz approval system. All have been tested & passed & many will be using the same additive system at the same treat to pass the test regime.

Carsy

Thanks Glyn, Changing it today !!JC