Glyn M Ruck

John's full DIY is in the Wiki. It could not be more complete if it tried.

Why did you not use an approved 236.14 fluid? Do you like playing with fire?

Stand: 04.11.2013
PRODUKTNAME AUFTRAGGEBER
Mercedes-Benz Automatik-Getriebeöl MB 236.14 Daimler AG, Stuttgart/Deutschland
MB 236.14 ATF NAG2VSport A 001 989 68 03 Daimler AG, Stuttgart/Deutschland
Aral Getriebeöl ATF M14 Aral Aktiengesellschaft, Hamburg/Deutschland
Fuchs TITAN ATF 4134 Fuchs Petrolub AG, Mannheim/Deutschland
LIQUI MOLY TOP TEC ATF 1600 Liqui Moly GmbH, Ulm/Deutschland
LUKOIL ATF SYNTH M 14 OOO LLK-International, MOSCOW/RUSSIA
Mobil ATF 134 Exxon Mobil Corporation, FAIRFAX, Virginia/USA
MOTUL ATF 236.14 Motul , AUBERVILLIERS CEDEX/FRANCE
OMV ATF M plus OMV Refining & Marketing GmbH, VIENNA/Österreich
Q8 AUTO 25 Kuwait National Petroleum Company, Kuwait/KUWAIT
Shell ATF134 Shell International Petroleum Company, LONDON/UNITED KINGDOM
Shell SPIRAX S6 ATF 134M Shell International Petroleum Company, LONDON/UNITED KINGDOM
TUTELA TRANSMISSION STARFLUID 7S PETRONAS LUBRICANTS INTERNATIONAL, KUALA LAMPUR/MALAYSIA
Valvoline SYNPOWER ATF 134 The Valvoline Company, LEXINGTON, KY/USA

romeo291

The Mercedes specification for 236.14 is an updated version of the recommended fluid. In 2009, Mercedes recommended a fluid meeting Shell ATF-3403-M 115, and Amsoil ATF met that specification. But since all the newer Mercedes models now recommend an updated spec, Mercedes decided to update the specification to the new spec, including the specs for the older cars as well. My car is a 2009, the Amsoil ATF I used is fine.

Glyn M Ruck

Benz have 2 current specs.

236.14 for 722.6 & 722.9 transmissions
& 236.15 Blue fluid for 722.9 Plus transmission (not reverse compatible.)

The AMSOIL product is not approved & is not OK for your transmission. You are taking a big chance. The smoother it feels the greater the chance of uncontrolled clutch slip & damage. The risk is yours.

romeo291

Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, those are the current specs. Which was changed.....In the past, the Amsoil ATF was compatible because the Shell ATF-3403-M 115 was the recommended type. With new cars, the specification changed and this carried over for older models as well, not sure why, I guess they just wanted a uniformed specification to reduce confusion. This information is coming from Amsoil btw, I contacted them and asked and they verified with me that the Amsoil ATF is perfectly fine for the car, they just no longer list it as compatible due to M/B new specifications. Also, it's an automatic transmission, so it uses a Torque Converter, not a Clutch....so no worries on clutch slip & damage :P

Glyn M Ruck

Oh dear! you really don't know what you are talking about.

722.9

romeo291

Look man, if my car blows up, I'll let you know and you can say "I told you so". I was only messing with you on the last statement when you said "clutch" by taking it literally...as in manual clutch...from a manual transmission, that's why I put the emoticon at the end to show humor. Anyways, I am not here to debate with you, I was just sharing what I did with other members on the forum. Unless you have personal experience with using Amsoil ATF or know someone else who have and had major issues, then you're pretty much telling me not to use something because M/B doesn't recommend it anymore even though it was fine back in 2009. I honestly think I will be ok, if I experience any issues later on down the road, it would be my fault and I'll share that to other people as well. Your disapproval of what I did has been noted

Glyn M Ruck

We try to give members on this forum the best information possible and the 722.9 is an expensive & sensitive transmission. Your misguided comments are thus not helpful. Benz has never recommended AMSOIL. They did not hold an approval in 2009 & they still don't now.

romeo291

Well, I never said Benz recommended Amsoil. I just said amsoil met the recommendations of the fluid that was recommended in the past. The amsoil ATF is designed to work with a lot of different vehicles, so most companies do not specifically recommend them since it's more "universal". At any rate, we're just beating a dead horse at this point. You were right in that amsoil is not the recommended atf to use, I am just defending why I used it, not recommending it to others. Go back to my original post, I was only recommending the service and stating what I use. Then you asked me why I used it, so I was only responding to you. The biggest reason why is actually because I had the fluid already available since I was going to do the transmission flush on my last car before it got totaled. So when I checked with amsoil and they said it would be fine to use with my car now, I went with it.

Glyn M Ruck

As always my advice to members is to use a Benz approved fluid in your transmission. The latest listing is provided above & there is plently of choice. Frictional properties of these fluids is absolutely crucial to the long life of your 722.9. along with every 39K mile & 60K Km fluid & filter changes.

I have 40 years of experience in the oil industry, much of it international. I have worked with the Benz Service Products arduous testing and approvals process since it's inception all those years back & thoroughly endorse it. It takes all the guesswork & risk out of the process for the Benz vehicle owner.

romeo291

I am not questioning your credibility, you have the most forum posts I've ever seen, plus, I know you're right. I was only explaining to you why I went with Amsoil since you asked me. I've used their products for a while now and have nothing but positive things to say about them. So, I am just going to have to trust that what they told me is true. Do you think it will be fine up until the next 30K? I will probably use an approved ATF the next time around.

Glyn M Ruck

The fluid has not been exhaustively tested in a 722.9 so I can't comment. The trouble with "universal" type fluids is that they are trying to meet the requirements of a number of different manufacturers & their specifications. This results in a compromised product because some of those requirements are in conflict with one another.

I would rather use a product specifically designed for Benz with the approved additive chemistry. If in the process it happens to meet some other specs then that's fine but I know it's optimised for Benz.

If it was my car I would only use the correct product but that's me.

I started this thread & all I'm trying to do is keep it on track.

spyked

Will we ever see fluid replacement/service instructions for 722.9 Plus (7G Tronic Plus) transmissions?

Surely someone has had a service done since Plus was implemented in a few years ago.

juanrace2004

Glyn. What about Pentocin ATF 1? My car is a 2009 C300 Sport AT. Is it an approved and Spec MB AT fluid? Pentocin MB OE reference number is #0019892203. Is it safe ? Today I did the complete drain and fill with Pentocin ATF1, also replaced the AT gasket with a new MB one,plus a MB original AT filter as well. Would appreciate your comments. Thanks.

lrutt

I have to ask about this requirement to get it to an exact temp before checking level to ensure proper fill. Why?? Are they concerned with the expansion characteristics of the fluid that it might make a 2mm difference in height or something? That part of the process just doesn't make any sense to me.

Glyn M Ruck

Pentosin holds a power steering fluid approval but their ATF1 is not approved by Benz. It is a Universal fluid. No good!

Temperature makes a huge difference to level.



See 722.6 example difference between 25 & 80 deg C.

lrutt

wow, I would never have guessed the temperature coefficient of expansion of trans fluid was that great.

Thanks

rb23lb

I have a 2008 C350 with 36,990 miles.

I believe it is time for the dreaded transmission service.

Any new coupons or recommendations for me?

I followed these threads over a year ago, but got married recently and a whole year flew by and I forget what the heck I need to know about the correct amount to drain and what not...

Thanks in advance if someone could just some it up reql quick with the latest tips for this service that everyone dreads.

RB

johnnr

All - I had my tranny serviced and the indy mechanic, who specializes in MB for over 30 years, used Pentosin ATF1. He assured me repeatedly this was absolutely ok to use. (this is a 722.6 tranny on a 2000 CLK 430)

Apologies this post is in the 722.9, but I am including this because of the context of Pentosin ATF1.

The car's been driving excellent for over 1K, but I'm seeing this isn't necessarily approved by MB.

Also, I'm having trouble finding information on the 236.11 (0019892203) spec.
What is this? I find info on the 236.1, but not much on the 236.11

Additionally, this Pentosin fluid is listed as the correct fluid on a bunch of parts websites, including european ones and basic shops in the US, such as Oreilly.

I asked the Indy to use MB approved...and I'm now seeing this wasn't.

But I also looked up the Pentosin 2013 catalog and it absolutely does list ATF1 as a fluid for my car (CLK430, w208) among many other cars, including the 722.9 tranny.

Juanrace - what has been your experience so far?

Glynn - I guess I know what your answer would be, but this situation is a little different, because the Mechanic (who specializes in MB) is the one who selected Pentosin. (aka I'm not the one...I specifically requested appropriate fluid)

Much information I've found on Mbworld and Benzworld is a few years outdated, so I'm also wondering about new updates/allowances as of end of 2013.

All - Thoughts?

juanrace2004

I am no MB expert by any means, but from reading the several posts here, I guess Glyn really knows what he is talking about. I used Pentocin ATF1 in my C300 without any regret. It works perfect. It is an excellent German product and my tranny, in my humble opinion, works much better now that with whatever fluid it had before. But keep in mind it is always better to use MB original fluids/parts in your Benz. I also went with the Pentocin when I changed the antifreeze in my radiator, its called Pentofrost and after the flush/refill, my operating engine temp. went down 5 degrees Celcius. Also replaced my power steering fluid with a Pentocin product.

johnnr

Thanks juanrace. I actually wound up contacting them directly.

Pentosin did say it's not MB approved, but they absolutely recommend its use. Apparently, this AFT1 is supposed to be very very good for these transmissions.

I think some of this approval stuff is based on business decisions, and we'll never be privy to those. So long as their fluid meets the spec (based on their research) I guess i'm ok.
If it was not ok to use, I'm thinking between them stating its ok and other major parts companies (distributors) saying its ok...if it wasn't - there could be major litigation potential.

By the way...my car is driving excellent as well. Not a major difference before the new fluid, but a nicer ride.

juanrace2004

I had it before on a 2009 E92 M3 with the double clutch tranny and had it for like 40K + miles running and performing flawlessly. It was a different fluid than the ATF1 made specicaly for double clutch trannies.I do think Pentosin is a top notch product.

Glyn M Ruck

I have no problem with people giving anecdotal evidence of a product working in these transmissions. This evidence is likely misinformed as it could take a long while to damage a transmission. People will only see the error of their ways as the vehicle ages.

Caveat ~ The product is not approved. Benz does exhaustive testing of all approved fluids. I come from the oil industry ~ I know & have worked with Benz for years. The correct frictional properties of these fluids is crucial aside from the other functions they perform as a bearing oil, a gear oil, a hydraulic medium, a heat transfer fluid etc. etc. Only one additive system is approved for these fluids.

Warning ~ If your transmission seems uncommonly smooth after moving to a non approved fluid then beware. This is a clear indication that the frictional properties of the fluid are wrong & are permitting too much clutch pack slip prior to lockup with resultant increase in temperature & premature wear of the clutch packs. The transmission shift shock should remain consistent with the way the vehicle was when new & as designed. The fluid is a design component of the transmission ~ not just oil!

The question I have to ask. Benz gives you a decent range of products to select from. Why would you want to risk failure of a $10,000 transmission by using a non approved product that does not meet Benz specification?

This forum will always give the best possible advice & that is to use a Benz tested & approved fluid.

If Pentocin wishes to be taken seriously they need to get an approval. They hold other Benz approvals such as Power Steering fluid. They are going to sell a hell of a lot more ATF than PS fluid. This leads to the only sensible conclusion that they know their ATF would fail the Benz testing regime.

johnnr

Glynn - I can't disagree with anything you said. And I appreciate this feedback too!
Only thing is "I" didn't choose to use this product.

The Indy MB mechanic did. So, you've got shops out there using these fluids... Which tells me for those of us who Get work done at Indy shops... And there are tons of us out there... Buyer beware. But I must say my Indy has been in this MB business for years.

And you've got major parts shops selling this as for use in these cars.

Also, if pentosin says it meets the MB SPEC,I'd think at least on their end, they did research and testing.

Glynn- I know you work in the oil industry but are you a chemical engineer, mechanical engineer, etc.

You do seem to be very knowledgeable but if you're in sales, I may take this less to heart.

As for my car, I can't say it really drives any differently. Maybe a bit better but could be in my mind.

I think moving forward I'd buy MB fluid and have the Indy use it,knowing what I know now.
But I'm hoping I can just keep driving a while with the current pentosin.

It's interesting though. Most of the anecdotes on these websites which discuss Trans problems are discussing them when they are still using the original fluid. I haven't
Seen anything about issues when using a fluid that meets spec, but is not MB approved.
In fact, I've read some about guys using max life valvoline and have driven tens of thousands of miles with perfect tranny operation.
Pentosin is a major German oil company, so I think for now I'll just need
To trust them.

juanrace2004

Your point about failure in Trans problems/Issues while using the original factory MB fluid is quite interesting indeed in my point of view, contains a lot of logic and common sense. I have never seen a post/thread, not only here but in other MB forums about a MB Tranny having a failure or issue while using ATF1 from Pentosin,as a matter of fact,I have also never heard once of a failure,issue while using Pentosin, in any of the other Bimmer,Porsche,Audi or Ferrari Forums We do need to keep in mind,that Pentosin is the oldest German company in the Transmission oil/fluid market and a very reputable company in their specialized field which happens to be ATF,MT and Double Clutch Trannies. I have owned several MB products, like S55,E55, SL55,ML350,E320, SL500, several M3's, M5's,M6's Bimmers, F430, 360's, 575M, Porsche GT2, GT3, Carrera 4S, couple of Astons, and in all those cars I have refilled always their trannies with a Pentosin product and not once, I repeat, not even once, have I had an issue or failure with the corresponding Pentosin product. Also,we have road raced in SSCA a T1 Viper, several Nissans 350-370 Z's, M3's and always used Pentosin gear fluids without a single failure or breakage. In my humble point of view, its is indeed, an excellent product. One last comment, Pentosin has not failed me once in any of all those different brand cars I have owned and driven, so in my point of view and personal experience I believe its a well proven product with an excellent track record. And again,this is my own very personal opinion and by any means I am not recommending using this or any other brand of product to any other member.

romeo291

I am using an Amsoil ATF that met the 236.11 spec like the Pentosin ATF you guys are using instead of the newer recommended 236.14 spec. I had used this ATF because Amsoil had it listed as the recommended fluid at one point but then took the recommendations off their website later on. When I contacted Amsoil to ask if the ATF would be fine for my 2009 C300 and why it's no longer approved, they replied to me that it would be perfectly fine to use. They even added that it was an excellent ATF to use on my car. Obviously, Glynn is right that you should use the recommended ATF, but Amsoil told me that at one point the 236.11 spec was recommended before they switched to the newer 236.14 spec. They came out with the 236.14 spec for newer models, but since it would work on older models as well, it became the new recommended ATF across the board for some of the older models as well. So, if this is true, then MB would have done exhaustive testing at one point on the 236.11 spec since it was recommended once, so it should be fine to use. I can't really find any conclusive evidence that this is true though, but I doubt that both Amsoil and Pentosin would lie about it. But who knows, we're the guinea pigs, guess we'll find out a year or two, haha.